Russia on Yalta: No Comment from Warsaw

Polskie Radio ^ | 14.02.2005

[Grzegorz 246]

"I do not want to see America dragged into Poland's historic beef with Russia."

OK, thank you for your input.

[Vorthax]

Seems you are offtopic. Who is dragging America to European border war?

All Eastern Europe wants from Russia is to stop lying about WW2 and so called "liberation".

It's just history.

[Destro]

The lies go both ways over who did what to who in WW2.

[Vorthax]

Of course, but should we all lie then? Or should we tell the truth?

As you said America could be a "good faith mediator".

[lizol]

You know, Destro, you're a really strange guy.

This thread was supposed to be about some stupid comment made by some Russian official on Yalta anniversary.

I think no sane person, having any historical knowledge abut this part of the world would try to defend a view, that "at the Yalta Conference 60 years ago the allied powers reiterated their support for a strong, free, sovereign and democratic Poland, whose security was guaranteed not only by the United States and Britain but also by the Soviet Union.".

And you suddenly jump up with some argument about Cieszyn -which is absolutely not related to this issue. It really semms, like you were prepared to defend Russia'a point of view, no matter what the facts are.

Usually I don't agree with you, on this forum - as far as Russia is concerned. But I must admit, that sometimes your remarks are worth considering. I look at Russia from Polish point of view and it's always good to compare it with someone from outside (even if he's an obvious Russophile).

But do you really have to defend always Russian views - no matter if it is some reasonable thing or just a pure example of menthal diarrhoea (like in this case)????

The Yalta Conference just happened.
The Western allies betrayed Poland - letting it into Soviet sphere of influence. They didn't care, that Poland was the first coutry to fight the Nazis, that its military forces (ground, navy and air) was the fourth biggest within Allied coalition (after Soviet Union, USA and UK) and that it was always a faithful ally.
Probably from their point of view the price of Poland wasn't so big for keeping the alliance with Stalin. At last it was just some "little nation" - as you pointed(only something like 40 millions).
It's "great" politics, in which we turned out to be a pawn on a chess-board. Well, life is brutal. But do we really have to recognize the Yalta Conference as an example of support for a strong, free, sovereign and democratic Poland - as the Russian Foreign Ministry does???

You're the only one here who says anything about reversing the result of Yalta - which is a pure demagogy. It's all not about reversing anything. It's about admitting some facts and calling them in a proper way. That's all.

[Destro]

You did not call me a paid Polish agent when I defended Poland against charges of being anti-semetic and part of the holocaust machine against the Jews.

[lizol]

Have I ever called a paid agent of anybody???

What I mean is, that your attitude towards Russian issues is strange (in my opinion of course).
I'll bet, that if we discussed some other issues we would agree many times.

At last we met on a conservative forum.

[Destro]

It is not strange - I see the anti-Russian spin in articles and try and counter them - like the anti-Serbian spin I saw operating during the Clinton era.

[Destro]

PS: Did I confuse you when I defended Poland against charges that they helped the Nazis carry out the holocaust?

[lizol]

Man, what are you talking about again?
How it is related to the issue I'm rising?

Unless you always stand for the cause, that is being criticised.
But in this case do you really think, that every critical remark about Russia is anti-Russian? And it's always worth defending Russian views, even if they're an obvious BS sometimes (like in this case)?

[Grzegorz 246]

It's funny that Czechs don't rather have problems with this Cieszyn affair.

[SpikeMike]

Well someone suggested that the whole discussion was a bit offtopic considering the fact that it's about History and some of it's "remaking". Nobody is dragging US into any regional war in Europe (O/T how do we call an Iraq war than?) it's just the problem of HISTORY.

As some of us have noticed, Germany, made a lot of regrets during the last 60 years after the Nazis collapse. They regreted the nazism, the holocaust, Chancellor Brandt felt sorry in Poland for all the misbehaves the Germans did in my country during the occupation, he also did express great sorrow and sadness in Knesset. The Chancellor Schroeder did express his deep sorrow destroing Warsaw during and after the Uprising of 1944, and killing 250.000 of it's citizens. The Germans killed 6 millions of Poles (Jewish or non Jewish- of Polish citizenship).

So why don't we look at the eastern side of the Polish border. Did we see any regrets about the treatment of polish people after the 1939 invasion of Poland by the Soviets? Did we see any regrets about Katyn massacre, about sending 300.000 thousend people to Siberia to let them die in freezing cold. Did we ever hear anything about imposing totalitarian and deadly (at least till 1956) regime in Poland that killd t's own people only because they left Poland in 1939 in the "wrong" direction (UK). Did Hungarians ever heard "sorry" for their victims of 1956, or did Czechs ever heard any word of wisdom about their 1968?. Well for around 15 years there is some kind of democracy and freedom (going wrong way under Putin) but the Russians still thinkeverything was all right, and the soviets were the good guys, the Yalta was an opportunity to make free and democratic Eastern Europe with free economies, freedom of speech and of course, free will.

Well, when the world found out about the killing of Jews by their Polish neighbours in Jedwabne, polish president, had enough guts to say "sorry" for that and other mistreatment of Jews during the war, well we see the KGB (or FSB- you choose) mind of Putin's regime won't allow that skip in thinking...and one more thing:
While the whole world think the war ended on May the 8th 1945, the Russians still believe it was on 9th, do you know why? Because on may the 8th 1945 they were not prepared to make a military procession in Moscow so they "made" a history that the war ended one day later. Funny isn't it?

[lizol]

Entire text of that absurd:

http://www.ln.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/e78a48070f128a7b43256999005bcbb3/add9be3df90a0438c3256fa80046962a?OpenDocument

Unofficial translation from Russian

Russian MFA Information and Press Department Commentary Regarding Assessments Appearing in Polish Media of Outcome and Consequences of Crimean (Yalta) Conference of the Allied Powers


287-12-02-2005
Question: Please comment on the assessments that have appeared in Polish media recently of the outcome and consequences of the allied powers' Crimean (Yalta) Conference.

Commentary: We have learned with regret about the attempts being made in Poland and a number of other countries to misinterpret the outcome of the Crimean Conference of the heads of the leading allied powers of the Anti-Hitler Coalition, which concluded these February days 60 years ago.

Its most important result was, as is well known, the agreeing of the plans for the final defeat of the armed forces of Nazi Germany and Japan, and the determination of the basic principles regarding the post-war world arrangement, including the establishment of the United Nations.

It was in Yalta that the allied powers affirmed their shared desire to see Poland strong, free, independent and democratic. As a result of the Yalta-Potsdam arrangement Poland received a substantial increase of its territory on the north and on the west. Security was guaranteed Poland not only by the United States and Britain, but also by the USSR.

Over the postwar decades none other than the Soviet Union was the chief stimulator of the final establishment of the Polish border along the Oder-Neisse line, which found reflection in the treaties on Poland's border with the GDR in July 1950, and subsequently with the FRG in November 1990. The status of the new Polish borders was reconfirmed in the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany of September 12, 1990, of which the Soviet Union was a participant along with the US, Britain and France.

So it's wrong for our Polish partners to complain about Yalta. And then too to "rewrite" the history of World War II by snatching historical events out of the context of that era is an unscrupulous thing to do.

February 12, 2005
s

[dfwgator]

which found reflection in the treaties on Poland's border with the GDR in July 1950, and subsequently with the FRG in November 1990.

As if any of the captive nations could sign any treaty without Moscow's approval.

[lizol]

It was probably in Orwell's "Animal Farm" about the Ministry of Truth.

Didn't know they have something like that in Russia.

[A. Pole]

Germans would have defeated Poland anyway, but it would have taken them at least 2 months.

Two months would be plenty for the French to attack undefended Western German front. At that time French army was quite strong. After Polish defeat, French decided to wait.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

Poland deserves both the German and Russian territory.

[A. Pole]

It's funny that Czechs don't rather have problems with this Cieszyn affair.

Because in the end they got this Polish land which they stole when Poland was fighting for life against the Bolsheviks.

[Destro]

So why don't we look at the eastern side of the Polish border. Did we see any regrets about the treatment of polish people after the 1939 invasion of Poland by the Soviets? Did we see any regrets about Katyn massacre, about sending 300.000 thousend people to Siberia to let them die in freezing cold.

Yes the Russians did. Why did you not hear about it?

[Destro]

I only brought up Cieszyn to illustrate a point. Poland was once part of the Russian empire - and Stalin was using this past fact as a justifictaion for invading Poland.