FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives ^ | 1/20/05 | NA

[neverdem]

 

FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber

---

1/20/05

In response to numerous questions that ATF has received regarding the capabilities of the 5.7 X 28mm cartridge, the following technical information is provided.

FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing.

The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber.

Type: Double Action Only or Single Action (in Tactical model).
Chambering: 5.7x28mm.
Length: 208 mm
Barrel length: 122.5 mm
Magazine: 20 rounds.

The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber approved for importation as a sporting firearm.

The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-

1. a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
   
   
2. a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.

According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.

FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).

FN Herstal 5.7 X 28mm Ammunition

SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)
SS191 - AP Tracer
SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP)
SB193 - AP Subsonic
SS195 - "Green" - lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP)
SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP)
10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law)
10700005 Dummy

 

---

 

[neverdem]

The NRA appears to have received this statement from BATFE at http://www.atf.gov. The URL for the statement is http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

A leap in evolution

[Bikers4Bush]

Bump for later.

[angkor]

That's a bad boy. Are they for sale? How much $?

[rellimpank]

---and the cute little cartridge is an updated .22 Hornet which was the hot item with varmint hunters in the roaring 20's---

[ExSoldier]

I just saw one of these at the gun show last week. I't about the size of a Beretta M92 and quite light in weight. I like it and might get one later....perhaps two or three guns down the row in purchase priorities. I also saw the new S&W 325PD .45 ACP revolver. THAT is one sweet gun! My first purchase priority remains a Sig P220 with light rail. After that, I'll probably want the new Ruger "Alaskan" snubbie. After that it's prolly gonna be the new Springfield Armory M1A variant known as the SOCOM 16. Then I'll think about this one. By that time there will be enough reviews and first hand long term reports from owners to make a good decision.

[roaddog727]

That would certainly ruin your day for sure if you were on the receiving end.

[Eagles6]

BATFE. Is that the party department of the federal government?

[angkor]

On another note I just encountered (has this been posted?):

Police Chief's Poll Supports Gun Ownership

NEW POLICE CHIEFS POLL JUST RELEASED
Jan 19, 2005

Police Execs Speakout About Terrorism, Gun Control, Drugs

The National Association of Chiefs of Police released its 17th Annual Survey of Police Chiefs and Sheriffs and some of the survey findings are surprising and compelling. The survey -- released in the January 2005 issue of Police Times Magazine -- had some surprising results on various topics including terrorism, gun control, homeland security, and drug enforcement.

NACOP asserts that the public perception of how police view certain issues is based on media coverage, which is not necessarily accurate. When police chiefs and sheriffs are allowed to respond to poll questions anonymously, the politics may be removed from their answers.

[snip]

Gun Control: With regard to private citizens owning firearms for sport or self-defense, 93.6 percent of the respondents supported civilian gun-ownership rights. Ninety-six percent of the police chiefs and sheriffs believe criminals obtain firearms from illegal sources and 92.2 percent revealed they hadn't arrested anyone for violation of the so-called "waiting period" laws. When asked if citizens concealed-weapons permits would reduce violent crime, 63.1 percent said yes.

[506trooper]

Hmmm.....may have to consider this as a replacement for my Walther P-100, when I need to carry a small piece....

[Poohbah]

BATFE. Is that the party department of the federal government?

BATFE = Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.

In my view, partaking of alcohol and tobacco should not be done while partaking of firearms and explosives. Unfrotunately, the federal government hasn't figured that out yet.

[TXBSAFH]

I will just keep my Glock G21 for carry for now, thank you.

[neverdem]

IIRC, someone mentioned $850 on this thread, Gun Control Group [Brady Bunch] Warns of New ‘Cop-Killer’ Handgun.

I wanted to get the word from out "the horse's mouth" to all interested parties for the coming agitprop campaign.

[angkor]

Ruger "Alaskan"

Wow. How did I miss that one? Nice.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/News-11-11-2004B.html

[angkor]

Ouch!

[ExSoldier]

I used to have a Glock M21. Great gun, especially for IDPA competition. I used to use a Haarts recoil reducer in it and indeed it does cut felt recoil by about 50%. I have smallish hands and changed to the M30 when it came out. LOVED it! But I sold it to my nephew (who is going to inherit all my guns anyway, someday--not soon, I hope) for a good price and bought a Sig Sauer P245 for carry. But someday, I may get another M30 just for old times sake.

[hchutch]

LOL!!!

[TXBSAFH]

I like 45 acp. That is why I love this glock.

[IGOTMINE]

That pistol would be just the prescription if you're ever atacked by a poodle wearing body armor.

[roaddog727]

"I like 45 acp. That is why I love this glock."

I just dumped my Glock 19 for a Springfield Armory 1911-A1 milspec .45 ACP.

What goes down, stays down.

Can't wait to "test" it out......

[TXBSAFH]

45 ACP will stop most anything. Even if you are wearing armor, it will knock the crud out of you.

[TXBSAFH]

I also have a kimber custon classic, had it for 5 years now. The best m1911 I have ever had.

[shellshocked]

40 grain? Isn't that the weight of a 22LR? Body armor wearing prairie poodles won't be safe anymore.

[shellshocked]

"it will knock the crud out of you."

No kidding. It might not penetrate, but it will give you 3 seconds to go bonk the guy over the head with the 1911. ;>

[roaddog727]

Just hit their website to have a look - nice hardware.

How's the action and trigger-pull?

[ExSoldier]

The M30 is also 45 and it will accept the M21 mags, too.

[No.6]

Bang.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

It is a .22 but closer to .223, I would think.

[TXBSAFH]

It good, I like it about 4 pounds.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

20 rounds in the mag !

[TXBSAFH]

With mag exstintions 18+1 in the glock 45.

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Isn't this the same round fired by the P90 carbine?

[roaddog727]

"No kidding. It might not penetrate, but it will give you 3 seconds to go bonk the guy over the head with the 1911. ;>"

ROTFLMAO!

[neverdem]

Isn't that the link I put in comment# 1?

[Dr.Zoidberg]

I rarely bother to follow links off site. It's often more of a hassle than it's worth.

A simple 'yes' would have sufficed.

[IGOTMINE]

I was referring to the FN pistol.

I carry a 1911 in 45 ACP myself.

[MaximusIngenue]

Just thought I'd pass this one, I personally witnessed someone shooting one of these about 20 feet from a steel knockdown target set for 9mm to knock it down. The guy put 5 rounds on it, and it would not fall. He subsequently sold the pistol. He did state that it shot flat to 150 yards, for what-ever thats worth. At that yardage, I'd be using a long gun.

[neverdem]

40 grain? Isn't that the weight of a 22LR?

CCI's New .22 LR Load Has Teeth

[balrog666]

Wow. How did I miss that one? Nice. http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/News-11-11-2004B.html

Wow is right!

[Tuba Guy]

Thanks for clueing me in to the SOCOM 16 (M1A) from Springfield Armory.

This may be off-topic, but while checking out the Ruger site for the Alaskan snub-nose, I came across this Single Six .17 HMR --

Any info out there about the 17 HMR round?

[ExSoldier]

I have read some awesome reviews of this little round. Kimber even makes a 17HMR conversion for their 1911 series of pistols. I plan on getting the Ruger Single Six you posted to help me in teaching novices to shoot (I'm an NRA certified instructor) because it features very low recoil and flat shots and extreme accuracy. IOW, it looks like a lot of FUN and the teaching factor is my excuse!

[Fiddlstix]

BTTT

[OKSooner]

Got a link?

[Tuba Guy]

Thanks for the reply. My cousin (in law enforcement) has just emailed me the same thoughts. Guess this Ruger will be my next purchase.

[Pagey]

I love these "Gun" threads BUMP!

[Phsstpok]

<Homer Simpson mode>

MMMMMMMM.  SOCOM

 

SOCOM 16 *Shown with optional pre-ban 20 round magazine

This 16" version of the venerable M1A can be an effective close quarters battle rifle or just a great "ranch gun." This rifle has the minimum length barrel for a rifle under federal law. It has a proprietary muzzle break, tritium front sight and a forward-mounted scope base that is ideal for electronic sights or other accessories.

AA9626 SOCOM 16 with black fiberglass stock/carbon barrel(Image)
Caliber	7.62mm NATO (.308 Win.)
Barrel	16.25", Twist: 1 turn in 11 inches, right hand, six-groove chrome-moly barrel
Size	Weight: 8.9 lbs. (without scope)
Length	37.25" long
Mechanism	Rotating bolt, gas operated, air cooled, semi-automatic magazine fed rifle
Sights Front	Tritium post
Sights Rear	Enlarged military aperture with MOA click adjustments f both windage and elevation
Capacity	10 round box magazine*
Trigger Pull	5 to 6 lbs., two-stage military trigger
MSRP:	$1,727.00

</Homer Simpson mode>

---

 

Of course, if we're talking odd little cartridges and "cool" factor, I'd probalby prefer the HK PDW to the FN 5.7:

The PDW/MP7 Newest Innovation Cal. 4.6mm x 30

It goes without saying that the engineers at HK are not content to rest on their laurels.  There is much under development whose information will only be released to the public perhaps years from now.  Latest to become from HK, and first seen here in detail is the "PDW."  PDW stands for 'Personal Defense Weapon.'  This unfortunately is going to be a bit confusing for the student of HK, because this is the third firearm by HK to have 'PDW''as either all or part of its name.  The others are:  MP5K-PDW, and the prototype G11 PDW.

What appears upon first look to be a weapon design to compete with the FN series P90 in 5.7mm x 28, the PDW promises to be a huge improvement on that system.  Though no one could fault the engineers at Fabrique Nationale for their vision, the P90 has one reported serious flaw.  If you drop a partially loaded magazine, or the gun with a partially loaded magazine, rounds will go flying, get disoriented in the magazine and seriously jam the mechanism.

The heavy use of polymer again shows the design direction that the HK engineers are taking.  With a conventional 20 round magazine in the pistol grip or an optional 40 round magazine that extends below the gun, one of the most amazing aspects of the gun is its size, or lack thereof.  It is only slightly larger than a SOCOM pistol!

Sporting a retractable shoulder stock and a very small heads up display sight reminiscent of the Eotech/Bushnell Holosight, the PDW also has a T-shaped cocking handle somewhat like the M16 series.

Select fire, with safe, semi and full auto modes of fire, and production models sporting the now familiar red and white bullet in box pictograms, the stated cyclic rate on full automatic is 950 rpm.  The PDW has a foldable forward vertical grip.  The magazine is conventional staggered box, and the magazine release behind the trigger guard looks almost interchangeable with the USP series handguns.

Several features of the G36 series are present in the PDW as you can see in the photos below.   Extensive use of polymer, the rotating bolt and gas system all reflect the G36 series.

The PDW is a quintessential reminder of the lead that HK continues to take in small arms design.

Update: 11/2001:  The PDW has been named MP7 now that it is in production.  Below is the production version.  Notice the heavier buttstock, slightly changed markings, locking system on foregrip, flash hider and open sight option.

PDW Technical Specifications
Overall Length:	13.38 in./ 340mm (stock closed)	21.19 in./ 541mm (stock open)
Barrel Length:	7.09 in.	180mm
Width:	1.89 in.	48mm
Height:	6.77 in.	172mm
Unloaded wt. (20 rnd. mag):	2.64 lb.	1.20 kg
Loaded with 20 rounds:	2.86 lb.	1.30 kg
Loaded with 40 rounds:	3.39 lb.	1.54 kg

4.6 x 30 Ammunition Technical Specifications
Cartridge Length:	1.5 in.	38mm
Projectile weight:	24.7 grains	1.6 g
Case length:	1.18 in.	30mm
Ballistics/Velocity:	2379 fps	725 m/sec
Ballistics/Muzzle Energy:	312 ft/lb	420 joule
Projectile composition:	Copper plated solid steel bullet

PDW v. FN P90 HEAD TO HEAD COMPARISON
Test:	PDW	P90
Gelatine block at 50 m.*	280mm	230mm
Energy Transfer thru armor**:	220 joule	180 joule
Titanium/Kevlar Penetration*	>200m	140m
Energy xfer thru armor 100m**	115 joule	65 joule
* 20 % Gelatine block 300mm long  ** 1.6mm Titanium + 20 layers of Kevlar

PDW v. FN P90 Ammunition
	PDW (4.6 x 30)	P90 (5.7 x 28)
Projectile weight:	24.7 grains	31 grains
Muzzle Velocity:	2,378 f/sec	2,346 f/sec
Muzzle Energy:	310 f/lb
Armor Penetration 1.6mm Titanium/20 layers Kevlar	> 200 m	150 m
Max. Effective Range:	> 200 m	200 m

PDW featured on the cover of the 1/1/00 issue of Deutsches Waffen Journal

 

Engineers in Oberndorf with CAD model of PDW on computer screen.

 

Left side of prototype model PDW, serial number 164-002.  The production models are reportedly identified this way, but the white and red circular dots for the fire selector have been replaced with the familiar bullet pictograms.  Note the USP style mag. release.

 

Right side of prototype model PDW, serial number 164-002. 

 

Closeup of the illuminated reticle sight.

 

Cocking handle of the PDW retracted.  Directly below is retracted buttstock. 

 

The PDW stripped into major sub-assemblies.  40 round magazine at far right.

 

Bolt assembly. PDW bolt is strikingly similar to the G36 bolt.

 

From left to right, prototype cartridges 1 &  2,  production round, and blank.

 

 

[ExSoldier]

OOOOO! OOOOOOO! GUN PORN! I love it! But isn't the HK gonna be a leeeeetle tough to conceal in a holster on the hip? How 'bout an IWB holster?

[R. Scott]

Yep - and I will keep my 1911A1. The FN 5.7 isn’t all that impressive to me – but it might appeal to those who follow the latest fad.

[muir_redwoods]

bump

[Phsstpok]

Yeah, like you can conceal the SOCOM! I know, I know, two different tools and you were comparing it to the FN. However, I think the point with the HK is to NOT conceal it. It just looks MEAN.

Peace through intimidation.

[ExSoldier]

Peace through intimidation.

Hey! Where did you get my classroom motto? One of my classes this year is obviously made up of the Children of Satan who think they're some kind of gangstas. However, they have never had a guy like me as their teacher.

It just looks MEAN.

Exactly! So do I. My bite is much worse than my bark.

I had a kid the other day who complained I was being too mean. I replied that I'd make him a deal: I'll try being nicer, if you'll try being smarter. My department head loved it.