Boggs, Sandberg Elected to Baseball Hall of Fame

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=545&ncid=755&e=1&u=/ap/20050104/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_hall_of_fame ^ | Tue, Jan 04, 2005 | RONALD BLUM, AP Sports Writer

[GreatOne]

I completely agree with you about Ron Guidry. I wish he would get more HOF consideration, if not actual enshrinement.

[Tymesup]

I saw Rickey play last year. Had to go to Newark to do it, though.

[GreatOne]

Buckner is probably the best player that will never get into the HOF. He will only be remembered for one thing. No justice for Bill.

No. Vada Pinson, Jim Rice, Tony Oliva, Gil Hodges, and even Jose Canseco were all better players. There's talk that this year is the year for Oliva and Hodges through the Vet's Committee. Hope so.

[Hondo1952]

I always forget about Hodges and Pinson. I agree on those two but I'm just not sure about Canseco. In his prime he was great, no doubt about that, but he became a cartoon character his last few years and I think that will spoil his getting in. He might make it with the veterans committee. It's hard to believe Hodges still isn't in. I wonder who he made mad?

[GreatOne]

And I forgot Steve Garvey and Don Mattingly.

Is Garvey's character issues that much of a problem for him? When he was playing, there was very little doubt that he'd be a sure-fire HOF'er. Really surprised he's not at least garnering stronger consideration.

[Alberta's Child]

There are some statistical sources like Bill James that will break players down for comparison purposes by posting their career numbers in the form of a "162-game average."

In Rose's case, his average season was as follows:

639 at-bats
98 runs
194 hits
34 doubles
6 triples
7 home runs
60 RBIs
9 stolen bases (in 16 attempts)
71 walks
52 strikeouts
.303 batting average

Some of these numbers are good, but overall I'd say most people would be surprised to see his career numbers in this context. The 71 walks, 52 strikeouts and 9 stolen bases are particularly disappointing -- when you consider that he was a singles hitter who batted #1 or #2 in the lineup for most of his career.

A local radio host in New York summed it up very well last year when a caller asked why he considered Rose so overrated. The host replied that in his 23-year career, there was never a time when Rose was even the best player on his own team, let alone compared to the all-time greats.

[Hondo1952]

But when Garvey was playing he was Mr Baseball. The All American boy that could do no wrong. His problems surfaced after he retired didn't they? I know he left a string of babies in National League cities.

Mattingly should be in. He had the misfortune of playing for those bad Yankee teams. If he had made a couple of series he would be in already. The Yankees have so many in already I think he kind of gets lost in the shuffle.

[GreatOne]

I have always been astounded that Jim Rice is not in the HOF. Man was an 8-time All-Star, finished in the top 5 in MVP voting 6 times, 200 hits 4 times, and had 100+ R.B.I.'s 8 times. Should be in.

[Tymesup]

Ozzie grabbed a ball with his bare right hand?

[GreatOne]

I'm a regular at Baseball-Reference.com, so I'm aware of the 162-game average (why I'm a huge Jim Rice supporter). But even in Rose's case, how many players average 600 at-bats? How many come close to 98 runs? 194 hits? 34 doubles? Not many who aren't HOF'ers.

If the argument is over whether Rose is one of the top 25 players ever, I'd buy into that he's not. But he is a HOF'er (based upon his numbers). And whether he was the best on his own team when he played with Bench (arguably the best catcher of all time), Morgan, Foster, Schmidt (arguably the best 3B of all time), Carlton (arguably the best LP of all time), that's not really fair.

[GreatOne]

Are you being sarcastic? Perhaps the greatest fielding play of all time, right next to Mays' catch.

[csvset]

I wonder if Wade will invite Margo Adams, for old times sake?

[Charles Henrickson]

Rice really tailed off badly and quickly after age 33. But his first 12 seasons were outstanding. If he could have kept it up another three, he would be a lock.

Also, Rice was not much of a defensive outfielder or baserunner--in contrast to, say, Andre Dawson who was excellent at both. They are the top two outfielders currently on the ballot. Neither may make it, but I wouldn't squawk too much if they both did.

[Labyrinthos]

Carew couldn't carry Ryno's glove. And he was a spray singles hitter/bunter with no power. Make no mistake, Carew is Hall-worthy, but Sandberg was better overall.

No one could carry Sandberg's glove, but Carew was pretty damn close based upon fielding percentage (.985/.989), given the fact that Carew had nearly 7000 more fielding chances in his career than Sandberg (17,479/10,660 or 7.3 CPG/5.0 CPG), which suggests that Carew had greater range than Sandberg and therefore, more fielding oppurtunities. Pretty impressive for a guy who played most of his games on artifical turf where the ball moves much faster.

As far as hitting, Carew was a lead-off hitter. Lead-off hitters are supposed to get on base, and that he did with a vengence and a batting average 43 points higher than Sandberg. And despite being a lead-off "singles hitter/bunter with no power" Carew drove in nearly as many runs as Sandberg (1015/1061), hit 42 more doubles than Sandberg (445/403), smacked 36 more triples than Sandberg (112/76), had an OBP 49 points higher than Sandberg (.393/.344), and had a slugging percentage only .023 less than Sandberg (.429/.442).

[Charles Henrickson]

Carew had nearly 7000 more fielding chances in his career than Sandberg . . . , which suggests that Carew had greater range than Sandberg. . . .

No, it suggests that Carew was so weak defensively at second that they moved him to first, where he then had more fielding chances than at second. Carew actually played more games at 1b than at 2b.

[wireman]

"The real shock will be when the first guy with 500 home runs is snubbed."

You mean Fred (Crime Dog) McGriff?

Hershiser and Gooden? The former...Doubtful. The latter...No way.

[bjs1779]

"At his position", and my point is that that's not really saying much. He was a lightweight,

Actually, his fielding percentage was the best ever for any infield position. At least that was ESPN said last night. Want to cut him a little slack for only being 2nd on the all time Homerun list for 2nd baseman? I am bound and determined to drive you nuts if you don't. : )

[general_re]

Actually, his fielding percentage was the best ever for any infield position.

Well, yeah, I don't dispute that he was a master of the glove, I just think his offense was lacking.

I am bound and determined to drive you nuts if you don't.

Okay, okay - I give. It's not that I think he shouldn't be there, just that I think he's not quite as great as he's been made out to be. Hope that's good enough for you, 'cause that's as far as I can go for Ryno ;)

[bjs1779]

Okay, okay - I give. It's not that I think he shouldn't be there, just that I think he's not quite as great as he's been made out to be. Hope that's good enough for you, 'cause that's as far as I can go for Ryno ;)

Okay, that is good enough for me too. : )

I counted 5 infielders today that are in the Hall that had inferior numbers to Sandberg as far as both fielding and hitting.