Posted on 11/25/2004 10:29:28 AM PST by Coleus
TESTING THE FAITH
Priest busted for Communion wine
Wants variance of city law so he can say Mass outside abortion clinic
A Catholic priest has run afoul of the law in Colorado Springs, Colo., after being caught with an open container of sacramental wine while performing Mass outside an abortion clinic.
The Rev. Bill Carmody was warned by a police officer after the cop asked him what he was holding.
"The police officer asked me what's in the flask," he told the Colorado Springs Gazette. "I really didn't know what to do."
Carmody has asked the Colorado Springs City Council for a variance, allowing him to legally say Mass outdoors.
"I do not want to break the law. I'm simply asking for a variance," Carmody told the City Council on Tuesday. "This is a religious ceremony."
According to the Gazette, city ordinance 2.5.704 prohibits drinking in any street, alley, sidewalk, avenue, park – even public stairways.
The priest has been using the wine during weekly protests at a local Planned Parenthood facility. Someone apparently reported him to the police.
Vice Mayor Richard Skorman told Carmody his question about a variance would be researched, the paper reported.
Lenox Powell, a spokeswoman for Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains, told the Gazette Carmody's group tries "to bully and use scare tactics and threaten and shame women" outside the clinic.
"As for the issue of the wine and the Mass – our area of concern is women's health care," she said.
We're talking about only 2 ounces of wine for the Mass. I think the police have better things to do than to question a priest conducting Mass outdoors. There happens to be a first amendment to the US Constitution which states that Congress shall make NO law preventing the free exercise of religion. The SCOTUS actually decided to allow Santeria "priests" to conduct animal sacrifices if no animals are tortured so I think the city should be wise enough to not violate the US Constitution and let the Catholic Priest practice his faith.
Priest seeks exception to Colorado Springs open-container law
Priest tells lawmakers not to emulate JFK
He should have used a small hip flask with the holy spirits.
It's not about the wine. If it had been a Baptist preacher with grape juice they would have still found a complaint.
I support the priest, and it's clearly ridiculous for the police to go after him for something causing no harm at all. However, are Catholics allowed to use grape juice or non-alcoholic wine in communion? If yes, that would probably be the easiest way to solve the problem.
If it had been a Baptist preacher with grape juice they would have still found a complaint. >>
Yep, organizing without a premit, no parade permit, no rally permit, no sound permit. It could have been anything, they just want to permit Satan's work and let the abortion mill conduct their business.
To the PC crowd, it is abortion that is the sacrement..The only choice liberals think one should have.
If the priest uses the proper form, matter and rite, then it's no longer wine when he consumes it.
I guess it might make them nervous to be reminded God watching what they are doing in there.
I see these folks all the time outside PP on Colorado Ave, unfortunantly I'm usually working and can only give em a honk and thumbs up.
They drive the libs insane all the time, guy I work with has bonafide liberal kool aid drinkers living on every side of him that go off on huge insane tirades about the protesters. The protestors are doing good work!
The religion of Baal - Si
The religion of Christ - No
Maybe the good Bishop of Colorado Springs ought to enlighten the folks in Colorado Springs. The Young Bishop Sheridan has spoken out strongly against abortion...
Wrong answer Padre. You were offering the blood of Christ, in an area zoned for the gluttonous consumption of baby blood.
It is both prayer and protest... Sometimes the prayer is more effective in getting people to change their minds. God bless & Happy Thanksgiving...
We're talking about a disregard for the law no matter how much wine is involved.
If we keep spouting absolutes about the Rule of Law to the Left we should be expected to held to the same standard. If the priest gets his variance, fine. If not, he needs to abide by the laws of the community.
Ha! I figured it would be Fr. Carmody when I saw the title. He is by far the most publicly vocal opponent of abortion in Co. Springs. Kind of sad that one would expect him to be the protaganist of the story.
I am not at all surprised that the police would harass Fr. Carmody over a little wine, which in no way violates the intent of the ordinance they are attempting to apply. But the law enforcement officers in this area are absolute tyrants and will molest any citizen for the slightest scent of a violation of the most insignificant ordinance or law. Their prosecutorial descretion always comes down on the side of making the taxpaying citizens suffer the consequences of becoming involved in the Kafkaesque justice system. The jails are overflowing with so-called criminals, usually the young and poor, who have committed the most benign of offenses.
It is just an example of how stupid the people who run the courts and city councils and local law enforcement agencies are, and I mean dumb, dumb, dumb, that Fr. Carmody would have to go to the trouble getting a variance. That Richard Skorman, whose constituency in the Springs are the progressives and gays in the city, is going to be his advocate isn't very hopeful.
I am not at all surprised that the police would harass Fr. Carmody over a little wine, which in no way violates the intent of the ordinance they are attempting to apply. >>
Neither am I. I do sidewalk counseling outside a mill and see cars drive up with PBA & FOP shields in the windows.
Libs never have a problem with people protesting the war, but protest something they don't agree with and there all against protestors. Flip, flops are their constant.
The priest is already protected under the law, the 1st amendment of the US Constitution.
Absolutely not, there is not substitute for using wine during the Mass. Even during Prohibition, there was an exemption granted for priests using wine as a part of the Mass.
No we are not.According to the Gazette, city ordinance 2.5.704 prohibits drinking in any street, alley, sidewalk, avenue, park – even public stairways.
Clearly this law was enacted to prevent public drunkenness. Drinking. To get drunk. The sip of wine that the mass allows doesn't come close to violating this ordinance. It's a ludicrous application.
If we keep spouting absolutes about the Rule of Law to the Left we should be expected to held to the same standard.
Who spouts absolutes about the Rule of Law? Look, you do not want to live in an anal society where everything allowed or disallowed is due to some law or lack of law. Such a system destroys the ability of individuals of a society from being able to discern what is moral and what is not. Morality becomes a legal construct. Recall "no contolling authority".
Actually it wasn't wine, it was the blood of Christ. It would make an interesting court case, the Colorado Springs DA versus 2000 years of Christian tradition.
I'm going to sit on the curb with a bottle of Communion Vodka, wrapped in a brown paper bag. Hmm... sounds like a branding opportunity.
'Last Rights' for the little ones being killed inside comes to mind. Which brings me to another issue, the fetal harvesting industry and the lack of a death pronouncement before 'harvesting' the little ones. With what other class of humans is it permissible to chop them up for parts and tissue donations before a pronouncement of actual death is issued?
No! Jesus used wine at the Last Supper so only wine can be consecrated for Communion. Catholics believe that after the wine is Consecrated it no longer is wine but becomes the Precious Blood of Our Lord; that's why this whole thing is a travesty and a shocking slap in the face to all Catholics. I'm appalled by this action by the police, it is outright and blatant oppression of the Catholic Church, as well as all of Christianity.
No, we're talking about blatant religious oppression and to try to dress it up as "law" is a travesty, a complete sham.
Not in the US, no never.
"We're talking about a disregard for the law no matter how much wine is involved."
Psst, Sam, have you heard? The CONSTITUTION says we have the RIGHT to the FREE EXERCISE of our religion. Read all about it. www.constitution.org
There is no way this law, as applied here to a priest saying Mass outdoors, is Constitutional.
This is why we need lawyers.
Honetly officer, it WAS wine... Now, it just has the accidents of wine.
What's the deal with Professional Bowlers and abortion mills???
There are allowances made all the time for outdoor Masses. Folks aren't sitting around guzzling wine, and the town officials know it. They may try to block it just cause they don't want the crowd outside the clinic.
ProLife Ping!
If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.
Why not be more direct? What's your point?
That's not funny. It's just offensive.
To say nothing of the 1st and 2nd Commandments of GOD!
No law is self-inforcing. The cop interpreted the priest's action to be in violation of the law. He made a bad call.
Priests who are recovering alcoholics are allowed to use grape juice.
Something tells me that if this officer HAD seen a homeless person drinking an open container on the street, he'd have been less anxious to issue the ticket- something tells me the activity and the collar was the pure reason behind the ticket. Hmmm, am I right, people? Something tells me alot here will agree with me. :)
There has to be a true understanding of the meaning of the word 'scare'. Prayer is a 'scare tactic' which leads to threatening and shameful feelings on behalf of the guilty.
Vatican document draws new attention to low-gluten hosts and 'mustum'
WASHINGTON (CNS) -- The Vatican's recent document on liturgical abuses reiterated that only unadulterated wheat bread and wine are valid for the Eucharist. The April 23 document did not mention the exceptions in individual cases by which, with a bishop's permission, people who suffer celiac disease can use low-gluten wheat hosts and those who suffer alcohol intolerance can use the "mustum" of grapes -- juice with only the slightest traces of alcohol. Since both bread and wine must be consecrated and consumed by the celebrant or chief celebrant at Mass, a number of priests who are recovering alcoholics have received permission to use "mustum" in place of regular wine in the chalice. When asked about some readers' questions to Catholic News Service following news stories about the new document, Msgr. James P. Moroney directed attention to last November's NewsLetter, a periodical publication of the U.S. bishops' Committee on Liturgy. Msgr. Moroney heads the Secretariat for Liturgy, the committee's national staff office. The November issue of NewsLetter was devoted entirely to an explanation of norms spelled out in a July 2003 letter to heads of bishops' conferences from Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, concerning valid matter for the celebration of the Eucharist.
http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/DailyNews/todays.asp?date=5/4/2004
Not that i know of. Personally, I know at least two who have to sip about a teaspoon of Precious Blood lest they fall off the wagon. Hence why some of the EEMs are a bit loopy after Mass.
This is New Amerika - the constitution does not apply. We the people, like sheep have gone asleep.
Perfect.
Though there was a real point in there. If they let this guy slide, they open themselves up to many others using the same excuse. He should have and could have gotten a variance, and didn't.
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