Putin: Ally or Terrorist? (Russian FSB/KGB Real Culprits Behind "Chechen Terrorism")

To: Luis Gonzalez

AMEN MR. GONZALEZ!!!

21 posted on 09/21/2004 9:32:32 PM PDT by GIJoel

"Let us call it by its real name," wrote Boston Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby on October 28, 1999. "What Russia is committing in Chechnya is the mass murder of civilians.... And not only is the West failing to rise up against his [Putin’s] bloodbath, it is actively helping to finance it,"

Jacoby is a Kerry supporter now?

22 posted on 09/21/2004 9:32:58 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)

Settle in for the long fight, they'll be here soon.

23 posted on 09/21/2004 9:35:35 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)

Yep Golitsyn nailed it. Some of you are so trapped in your closed minds you failed to take note of one of the most important points in the article. Namely, Golitsyn's analysis lead him to the following conclusions:

Mr. Golitsyn, himself a former elite KGB operative amongst the Kremlin strategists, listed many important objectives, including:

• The Russian military bungling was intended to "demonstrate that it can be discounted as a serious military adversary for the foreseeable future."

• This message was "intended to influence US Congressional debate on the subject of Russia’s military potential and the size of US forces required to maintain a balance with it."

• The message could "also be used as a pretext for deepening the partnership between the US and Russian armed forces by seeking American advice and help in ‘reforming,’ reorganizing and retraining the Russian army in order to enable it to serve a ‘democratic’ system."

• The Chechnyan events also "enabled the Russians to play especially on European fears of destabilization in Russia" and "injected a further boost to the European desire for partnership with the ‘democratic forces’ in Russia."

• This partnership would lead to "entry into European institutions" and then "East European and eventually Russian involvement in NATO."

As usual, Mr. Golitsyn’s cogent analysis has proven prescient as well; all of the above objectives, and others he mentioned, have been advanced on the Russian chessboard — to a frightful degree. And, as usual, Golitsyn’s warnings and analyses have been ignored and supressed by the CFR insiders dominating U.S. policy-making positions, Establishment think tanks, and the press. (See the sidebar.)

Russia’s New Front Man

Mr. Golitsyn suggested that the Chechnyan "crisis" might be "a possible planned prelude to a change of government," replacing the spent Yeltsin team with a new set of rotating faces. "Since an outright military or nationalist government [in Russia] might prejudice the flow of Western aid and the continued ‘cooperation’ with the West which furthers the strategists’ interests," he said, it is likely that the Kremlin strategists wielding the real power behind the scenes would replace Yeltsin with a team comprised of a tough new president and a "reformist" prime minister. "The President would be presented as a guarantee of Russian stability while the Prime Minister’s task would be to ensure the continued flow of Western aid and the continuation of cooperative operations."

Enter Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, the Russian "hero" of the Chechnyan pogrom. President Putin, the current player sitting in the Kremlin’s big chair, may seem in charge of moving the Russian pieces around the board, says Christopher Story, but he is merely the current front man for the covert Communist leadership collective that has continued to rule Russia since the Soviet Union’s supposed collapse. Mr. Story is perhaps the world’s leading proponent of Golitsyn’s thesis that the "Soviet collapse" was a controlled deception, planned many years in advance, for long-range strategic purposes.

24 posted on 09/21/2004 9:36:57 PM PDT by GIJoel

I don't buy ANY of this nonsense. I guess you think the Russians blew up that school and killed those children, right?

25 posted on 09/21/2004 9:38:42 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)

I think the Russians may have admitted to blowing up the school.

The roof was blown by the tanks as far as I've been able to gather, I don't know that the terrorists' bombs ever went off.

In the case of the theater in Moscow, 177 out of the 178 hostages killed died from the gas used by the FSB.

One was shot to death by someone.

26 posted on 09/21/2004 9:41:50 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)

I don't know about Putin, but I know how Islamics treat innocent men, women and children In the last two days they hacked two Americans heads off and made movies out of it.

I know they deliberately targeted and butchered those teachers and kids in Beslan. I know they use their own children for human shields and human bombs to kill Jewish kids on buses in Israel. I know they come to live in our country and fly planes into buildings and kill thousands of innocent men, women and children.

No I don't know about Putin but I have seen Islam and it's followers and what their plan for humanity is with my own eyes.

If Putin will deal with this vermin that follows the teachings of Mohammad I'll cheer him on.

I lived through the cold war and as bad as the Russians where I don't remember any of the western worlds children and citizens being indiscriminately slaughtered by Russian suicide bombers.

Islamic beasts have been trying to convince us that they will not live on the same the planet with anybody but their own. Well, they've convinced me.

No more benefit of the doubt from me. If you follow the teachings of Mohammad or the Koran you are the enemy of all I believe in. Period.

27 posted on 09/21/2004 9:42:17 PM PDT by mississippi red-neck

Yep. I do. They have carried out many such murderous operations against their own (imprisoned) people over the last 70+ years.

28 posted on 09/21/2004 9:43:50 PM PDT by GIJoel

To: Luis Gonzalez

The Russians DID NOT admit to blowing up the school. It was a terrorist bomb that did the damage.

Was it a Russian terrorist, or a Chechen terrorist?

As far as the theatre was concerned, yes it was Russian gas, but the terrorists were killed.

Putin is not as concerned with killing innocent civilians. If we weren't, the Iraq war would be over.

29 posted on 09/21/2004 9:45:10 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)

To: mississippi red-neck

Putin needs to tie the war in Chechnya to our world-wide war on terror; I don't buy it because it isn't the same by a long shot.

30 posted on 09/21/2004 9:45:59 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)

They have carried out many such murderous operations against their own (imprisoned) people over the last 70+ years.

That was then. If they are now killing Islamist terrorists, they are doing the Lord's work.

31 posted on 09/21/2004 9:46:54 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)

To: mississippi red-neck

Red-neck,

I suggest you read "We Are The Next Target" and "Terrorists In Muslim Disguise" threads before you start blaming everything on Islam. Don't comment right away, go read them. You will find them posted at the following two links:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1220747/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1220737/posts

32 posted on 09/21/2004 9:47:57 PM PDT by GIJoel

"The Russians DID NOT admit to blowing up the school."

The most accurate report on the events always say the same thing, that an explosion was heard, presumably from a terrorist bomb. That has never been confirmed.

You will however find confirmation, in both the Russian and American press, of Russian troops blowing a hole in the Gymnasium wall, and killing many hostages.

33 posted on 09/21/2004 9:48:52 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)

They been killing Chechens for over four hundred years sink...whose work was being done before now?

34 posted on 09/21/2004 9:49:45 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)

"'All those shining towers,' he said, gesturing at the Manhattan skyline, 'they look so strong, so tall, but they're just a house of cards. A few explosions in the right places and do svidaniya [goodbye]. We're only beginning to realize how vulnerable this country really is.'" (A KGB "wet affairs" operative in the fall of 1965; taken from Shevchenko, Arkady: "Breaking With Moscow," 1985, p. 335)

35 posted on 09/21/2004 9:51:17 PM PDT by GIJoel

To: Luis Gonzalez

Are Chechens Islamist?

As for the Russian school, what you've read differs from what I've read.

36 posted on 09/21/2004 9:52:16 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)

So? Are you now making the preposterous assertion that the KGB was behind 9/11?

Birchers are always seeing Russian communists behind every bush. Always. You goofballs never change.

37 posted on 09/21/2004 9:54:03 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)

And I am willing to bet that I've read a whole lot more than you have too.

"But the official version is contradicted by many eyewitnesses and former hostages. According to the newspaper "Izvestiya," whose reporter interviewed one of the emergency staffers who drove up to the school in the minutes before the siege was broken, there were no initial explosions.

He said someone -- he does not know who -- opened fire from outside the school, at which point the militants fired back. Then came the explosions. Other witnesses suggest the initial gunfire might have come from among the crowd of parents and relatives waiting outside the school. Some say the explosions were actually Russian tank fire, which blew off part of the school's roof.

Moscow-based military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer also doubts the Kremlin's version of an unplanned, last-minute decision to storm the school, saying the appearance of attack helicopters points to a coordinated, pre-planned move.

"Although there is an air base near Beslan, I know how much time it takes to transmit instructions to pilots. Even if the helicopter was fueled, armed, and waiting, and the pilots were already suited up -- if it had been a spontaneous decision -- they would have had to wait for instructions. An order would have had to be given. They would have had to get aboard, to warm up the engine. They could not have made it to the school in less than half an hour or even more," Felgenhauer said." -- Source.

38 posted on 09/21/2004 9:57:21 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)

To: Luis Gonzalez

Look, Luis. If you want to believe the Russians intentionally killed all those kids, you just go right ahead and believe it.

It's nutty as hell, but you're entitled to be nutty once in a while.

39 posted on 09/21/2004 10:00:04 PM PDT by sinkspur ("John Kerry's gonna win on his juices. "--Cardinal Fanfani)

I'm no bircher, and I am a little surprised at your comment.

Use whatever "ism" you want to use, but Putin has centralized power, suspended democratic elections, and is working on extending his term in office beyond what's constitutionally allowed.

If it looks like a Chavez...

40 posted on 09/21/2004 10:00:27 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez ( Even Jane Fonda apologized. Will you, John?)

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