Posted on 09/19/2004 2:29:15 PM PDT by Boundless
These tiny injuries are not consistent with B-40
rocket shrapnel. THEY ARE CONSISTENT WITH THE
EFFECTS FROM M-79 GRENADE LAUNCHERS.
...
He probably then grabbed the M-79 grenade launcher --
shooting a round into a reportedly monsoon rain. The
round would have detonated prematurely due to the wall
of rain that was coming down and thus blown back to
wound Thorson and Kerry, as well as Fred Short it appears.
(Excerpt) Read more at 2.swiftvets.com ...
It appears that LTJG Kerry was a true menace to
friendly forces with an M-79. The first PH resulted
from firing one at a target too close (shoreline rocks).
The second from firing into heavy rain.
What's the problem with heavy rain? My surmise is
that grenade and rocket launchers generally do not
arm the warhead until some time/distance after the
projectile has cleared the tube. But at that point
the warhead is impact-fused. Presumably, heavy rain
is sufficient to detonate, once armed.
bttt for later
<<
What's the problem with heavy rain? My surmise is
that grenade and rocket launchers generally do not
arm the warhead until some time/distance after the
projectile has cleared the tube. But at that point
the warhead is impact-fused. Presumably, heavy rain
is sufficient to detonate, once armed.
>>
M79 projectiles do need to spin-up to arm. Wouldn't know about the rain.
My understanding of the 40mm grenades used in the M-79 is that they arm as a result of a spinning action. After firing, the round spins at about 3700rpm and is armed after about 15 meters of flight.
They've said it's all false... right??? So Kerry really is a hero.... he's just like Bob Dole, Audie Murphy, Hackworth, etc... hell he probably fell on a grenade but it only "nicked" him like his pet monkey, Max Cleland.
It's my understanding that you can still very easily wound yourself in a minor way with an M79, even with the delay fuse. The point of the delay is to prevent you from turning yourself (and squadmates near you) into a tiny pieces, not to make you invincible.
BTTT
Is this the "rice in the buttocks" wound, or was that the third Purple Heart? It's so hard to keep all of his grievous injuries straight.
> Is this the "rice in the buttocks" wound,
> or was that the third Purple Heart?
You are not confused.
#1: M-79 on the rocks.
#2: M-79 in the rain.
#3: Rice-A-Roni
All self-inflicted, but none with obvious intention.
There may still be a question about the exact ordnance
used in PH#3. The PCFs reportedly were issued concussion
grenades, and not fragmentation grenades, presumably to
avoid puncturing the hull in nearby combat encounters.
Did Kerry borrow a frag from some ground troops?
Did he use a conc? Or, since the wound was rice,
does it matter. A conc might be all the explanation
needed.
Damn shoreline rocks. You can never tell when they're going to rise up & attack you!
I thought Cleland was a helo pilot in Nam who got it from a combination of heavy enemy fire into his helo and the crash back onto the ground.
It looks like his bitterness over the 2002 elections, combined with his dislike of the Bush campaign, in general, may have sucked him up into the whole "Rathergate" fiasco.
One thing his situation proves is that a warzone is ultimately a very dangerous place to be. All the guys who went to Nam should be saluted for their bravery.
Kerry was in Nam?
No, you're right. I'm getting my Nam war wounds confused, lately. Fell on a grenade that was accidentally dropped, alright.
I'm a retired military officer with 22 years of service. It's still amazing to me what a hold Vietnam still has over all of us.
...depends on what kind of round is being fired. Some arm a lot closer than that (three meters or so, IIRC?). ...kill radius is only about 5 meters on most of the anti-personnel types, IIRC.
I doubt that rain would have set it off. We (grenadiers) were not cautioned against firing grenades in rain.
But a rock would do it. And he might have caught a tiny sliver with low energy behind it from a pretty good distance.
If you read his biography from a Georgia citizen's website that I just Googled, it leads one to believe that a grenade, either from his webgear or from someone else's lost its pin and fell to the ground and then he jumped onto the grenade. A little confusing.
We used to go out on patrol and take soda cans stuffed with more cut-up soda pieces and shove a grenade fuse into the can. We'd tie real fine fishing line to the end of the fuse, which would be armed when someone would trip the line.
More of an anti-personnel thing, and not designed to kill, but you can see where the type of grenade he was messing with would really put you in the hurt locker, shrapnel-wise.
Then, too, everybody had a lever to select auto.
I think that one thing raised the public perception of the terror level way above the WWI experience in the trenches, or the WWII specific terror of guys parachuting into German ground fire. Had a cousin killed that way ~ coming down.
In the future it will all be worse and folks will marvel at the bravery of the soldiers, while standing back a bit lest they get too close to so much risky kharma.
nope, screwing around after some adult beverages with frag and some buddies, went after "one that got away".... and he went "away over there and over there".
[On a more recent note, are the people who were injured when that creep fragged them eligible for Purple Hearts?]
I think that S.L.A. Marshall (who isn't on David Hackworth's most-admired persons list, btw) found that something like 98 out of 100 rounds sent downrange during WWII were either not deliberately aimed or never hit the bad guys if they were in fact aimed.
I always thought that that was why my M-16 had a pistol grip, so I could hold it at angles and fire from behind a wall while crouched down ;-) Then again, I started as a Navy corpsman, so my personal weapon was a .45 (later a Baretta 9mm). I always made sure I stayed close to the heavy weapons section during our 9 man patrols :-))
BTTT -- keep this story out there for all to read!
"...I thought Cleland was a helo pilot in Nam who got it from a combination of heavy enemy fire into his helo and the crash back onto the ground....It looks like his bitterness over the 2002 elections, combined with his dislike of the Bush campaign, in general, may have sucked him up into the whole "Rathergate" fiasco..."
- - -
I hope you are being sarcastic.
The toys of war are dangerous things to be around.
Cleland's wounds, though tragic, came from his own stupidity.
And his injuries did NOT merit a purple heart,
Since there was no hostile fire involved.
Boundless bump
No, I was genuinely confused. I've since Googled a couple of websites and found the straight skinny. One Georgia website says that he fell on the grenade rather than have it detonate and frag a few others in addition to himself.
In some of the units I served in out in the field, we always had a problem with some of the younger guys trying to get all fancy with how they secured their frags and antipersonnel equipment to their "deuce gear" (782 webgear). Some of 'em grew up on Chuck Norris and Rambo and didn't understand there was a sound reason for how explosives were carried on one's body. :-)
Following this developing story, it's worth noting a few things:
1. The SBVFT have not announced their PH#3 conclusion in
an official release. It is still under investigation.
2. The SBVFT forum basenote linked in the base post here
is actually being revised continuously. At some point.
if it hasn't already happened, the excerpt quoted may
no longer represent the text there.
3. One of the items under discussion is M-79 ballistics;
how much a risk heavy rain firing is, and whether or
not the radius, shape and direction of the explosion
is a realistic hazard to the shooter in the envisioned
scenario.
Since I was blowing a lot of "IIRC" (if I remember correctly) information, I'll take the time to find a site that has the facts for sure. There should be an Army site on the Net with the ballistics stuff--a site that everyone can trust. ...will give it a try, unless one of you has already found such a site.
You have a Freepmail. I'll keep looking.
Defender3, you were correct-a-mundo or closer than I was! The arming distance is between about 14 and 27 meters.
After my analysis, if Kerry fired any near object, he needlessly endangered government property--himself. And if he did so near any of his buddies (less than 130 meters), he needlessly endangered them, too.
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