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Against Neoconservatism (It's the new Jacobinism, says Claes G. Ryn.)
Lew Rockwell.com ^ | 5 May 04 | Claes G. Ryn

Posted on 05/05/2004 9:55:43 AM PDT by u-89

Which American?

by Claes G. Ryn
by Claes G. Ryn

The just-concluded 40th anniversary meeting of the Philadelphia Society, held in Chicago, featured a panel on US foreign policy. Midge Decter, the controversial new president of the society, praised the United States as embodying universally applicable principles, and endorsed the aggressive foreign policy that is the hallmark of the Bush administration. On the same panel, Claes Ryn, the 2001–2002 president of the Society and the author of the recently released America the Virtuous, criticized this kind of universalism as "neo-Jacobin" and as incompatible with traditional American views on government, not to mention peace in the world. Professor Ryn's remarks follow:

Quite often I have lunch at a McDonald’s in one of the most affluent and pretentious suburbs in America just outside of Washington, D.C. The residents are ambivalent about having a McDonald’s in their community – it undermines their self-image – so the restaurant is tucked away inside a little mall and almost impossible for outsiders to find.

I like to arrive just after 10:30. I am up very early, and before 11:00 my McDonald’s is still quiet. I eat and read in peace. Later, mothers drive up in their luxury SUVs with their preschool children, and, if schools are closed, older children too. Some high-schoolers show up. On Saturdays many fathers do McDonald’s duty and older children come as well. My French café is transformed into bedlam. Near the playpen especially the noise rises dramatically. I have learnt when late to shut out the din, but sometimes I watch the scene in fascination. At the counter toddlers in strollers scream when parents do not give them French fries fast enough. Older children crawl on chairs and tables or rush about shouting and shoving while waiting for mom or dad to bring the food. Mothers and fathers scurry around, anxiously solicitous of their princes and princesses. They comfort the crying and apologize to little Ashley and Eliot for having taken so long. By now I know well the difference between the crying of a child in distress and the importunate crying of a child who won’t wait or take no for an answer. At the playpen – the "hell-hole" – it is obvious that playing without throwing yourself about and making lots of noise would not be real playing. Sometimes the playpen emits such piercing screams that the Asian-American children look at their parents in startled surprise. Deference to grown-ups seems unknown. I used to take offense, but the children have only taken their cue from their parents, who took their cue from their parents. The adults, for their part, talk in loud, penetrating voices, some on cell phones, as if no other conversations mattered. The scene exudes self-absorption and lack of self-discipline.

Yes, this picture has everything to do with U.S. foreign policy. This is the emerging American ruling class, which is made up increasingly of persons used to having the world cater to them. If others challenge their will, they throw a temper tantrum. Call this the imperialistic personality – if "spoilt brat" sounds too crude.

But, surely, this rising elite has wonderful strengths. Are not its adults highly educated – about history, philosophy, geography, and world affairs – and masters of several languages? Do they not travel widely and have a keen understanding of other countries and regions of the world? Are they not sophisticated cosmopolitans suited to running an empire.

Pardon the sarcasm. I am well aware that a different type of American still exists. That American aspires to character traits virtually the opposite of those on display at my McDonald’s. Americans used to admire self-restraint, modesty, humility, and good manners. They were acutely aware of original sin. They feared the self-indulgent ego, in themselves and others. Americans of an earlier era stressed the need to check the darker potentialities of human nature, the unleashing of which could wreak havoc on the individual and society. They hoped that in personal life moral character would restrain the desire for self-aggrandizement, just as in national political life the checks and balances of the U.S. Constitution would contain the all-too-human desire for power. Personal self-control and constitutionalism were but different aspects of the effort to subdue the voracious ego. Human beings could not be trusted with unlimited power.

The old Americans were not so foolish as to try to extinguish the will to power. Nothing good could be accomplished without power in some form. But they recognized the great danger of the will to power being diverted from its legitimate ends and breaking free of checks.

The Framers assumed that, for the Constitution to work, its institutions had to be manned by individuals who embodied its spirit. These individuals had to be predisposed to virtues like self-restraint, respect for law, and a willingness to compromise. They had to have what I call a constitutional personality. The spirit of the written Constitution stemmed from America’s unwritten constitution, that is, the religious, moral, and cultural life that had inclined Americans to constitutionalism in the first place. The Constitution could not survive without character traits that the Framers hoped would be wide-spread. All know Benjamin Franklin’s answer to the woman who asked what the Constitutional Convention had produced: "A republic, if you can keep it." The primary reason why today the U.S. Constitution is a mere shadow of its former self is that it cannot be sustained without the constitutional personality.

The new imperialistic ego is shrugging free of the old American self and corresponding constitutional restraints. The desire for self-aggrandizement has transformed limited, decentralized American government into a national Superstate, which has given the will to power a scope far beyond the worst fears of the anti-Federalists. The Tenth Amendment, that ironclad guarantee against improper expansion of central power, is a dead letter, like so much else in the Constitution. Decision-makers in Washington reach into virtually every aspect of American life. But not even power on this scale can still a desire that is insatiable. Today it contemplates dominating the entire world.

Needless to say, the will to dominate does not present itself as such to the world. It wraps itself in phrases of benevolence and selflessness. There is always another reason for government to do good. The greater the caring, the greater the need to place power in the hands of those who care. It is, of course, sheer coincidence that this benevolence invariably empowers the benevolent. So well does the will to dominate dress itself up that it almost deceives the power-seekers themselves.

The ideas of the French Jacobins provided a sweeping justification for exercising unlimited power. As followers of Rousseau, the Jacobins were not content with reforming historically evolved ways of life. "Freedom, equality and brotherhood" required the radical remaking of society. Because of the scope and glory of the task, the Jacobins had to gather all power unto themselves and deal ruthlessly with opposition. Good stood against evil, all good on one side – their side. The Jacobins called themselves "the virtuous." In the twentieth century, their communist descendants offered an even more blanket justification for wielding unlimited power.

Although the classical and Christian view of human nature has eroded, big government still has a bad name in America. Challenging the Constitution outright remains risky. Americans attracted to the Jacobin spirit have therefore sought instead to redefine American principles so as to make them more serviceable to the will to power. They have propounded a new myth – the myth of America the Virtuous – according to which America is a unique and noble country called to remake the world in its own image. The myth provides another sweeping justification for dominating others.

An effort has been long underway to transfer American patriotism to a redefined, Jacobin-style America, seen as representing a radical break with the Western tradition. According to Harry Jaffa, "The American Revolution represented the most radical break with tradition . . . that the world had seen." "To celebrate the American Founding is . . . to celebrate revolution." In Jaffa’s view, the American revolution was milder perhaps than the "subsequent revolutions in France, Russia, China, Cuba, or elsewhere," but it is, "the most radical attempt to establish a regime of liberty that the world has yet seen." America thus reinvented is founded on ahistorical, allegedly universal principles summed up in such words as "freedom," "equality," and "democracy." These principles, the new Jacobins assert, are not just for Americans; they are, as Allan Bloom insisted, "everywhere applicable" – a theme echoed today by George W Bush.

The French Jacobins appointed France as the Savior Nation. The new Jacobins have appointed America. Its great, benevolent cause is to rid the world of evil. This cause gives the appetite for power the moral cover it likes to have. One kind of universalist ideology, communism, has been replaced by the ideology of American empire, and the stage is set for another cycle of crusading. With neo-Jacobins shaping U.S. foreign policy, whether as Democrats or Republicans, America and the world can expect an era of chronic conflict.

Could any goal be more appealing to the will to power than ending evil? The task is not only enormous but endless. No conservative would need to be told that evil cannot be "ended"; Rousseau’s notion of the fundamental goodness of man and his vision of society transformed are pernicious figments of a childish imagination. Evil can be tamed to some extent, as the Framers knew, but even Sunday schoolers used to understand that it cannot be ended. You wonder why, if America is called to end moral evil, it should not, while at it, also do away with poverty and illness.

Do the new Jacobins ever reflect on the remarkable coincidence that they should be alive at the precise moment in human history when the one valid political model was finally discovered and that, furthermore, they should happen to live in just the country that embodies that model and is called to bestow it on the rest of the world? But such questions do not bother ideologues who are arguing toward a preconceived conclusion: that they should preside over armed American world hegemony – for humanity’s sake, of course.

The word "empire" does not yet have the right ring in American ears, so the new Jacobins try not to appear too grasping. But even when feigning modesty the will to dominate has difficulty keeping up appearances – as when Ben Wattenberg said, no, no, no, we Americans do not want to "conquer the world." We only wish to ensure that "the world is hospitable to our values."

The arguments for bold American assertiveness are familiar: We live in a dangerous world full of odious political regimes. Terrorism is a serious threat to America and its allies. America must, as the world’s only superpower, play a leading role in the world.

But why keep repeating the obvious? Yes, the world is dangerous; it always was, more or less. Like other countries, America must be prepared to defend itself and its legitimate interests – of course – and as a superpower she will indeed have to carry a heavier burden than other countries. It does not follow that America must impose its will on the rest of the world.

But 9/11 changed everything, the neo-Jacobins cry. Well, not quite everything. The human condition has not changed. Terrible events do not cancel the need for those personal qualities and social and political structures without which the will to power becomes arbitrary and tyrannical. Unfortunately, 9/11 gave the imperialistic personality another pretext for throwing off restraint.

American unilateralism represents a reversal of the old spirit of constitutionalism and checks-and-balances. Just as, domestically, particular interests need to accommodate other interests, so, internationally, states need to check and balance each other. The notion that America knows better than all other nations and has a right to dictate terms to them betrays a monumental conceit. It also guarantees that other nations will see a need to arm themselves just to have some protection against American bullying. Already the Muslim world is seething with hostility. China, which has long found Western hegemony intolerable and is already strongly prone to nationalism, can be expected to respond to American assertiveness by greatly expanding its military power. If present trends continue, the time should soon be ripe – in 50 years perhaps? – for a horrendous Sino-American confrontation.

For Christians, the cardinal sin is pride. Before them, the Greeks warned similarly of the great dangers of conceit and arrogance. Hubris, they said, violates the order of the cosmos, and inflicts great suffering on human beings. It invites Nemesis. On the Apollonian temple at Delphi two inscriptions summed up the proper attitude to life. One was "Everything in moderation," the other "Know Thyself." To know yourself meant most importantly to recognize that you are not one of the gods but a mere mortal. As for the old Hebrews, in Proverbs (16:18) we read: "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

To the new Jacobins, such calls for humility have the quaint sound of something long outdated. Why should those who know how humanity should live question their own ideas or right to dominate? The world needs "moral clarity," not obfuscation. Many of those who shape the destiny of America and the world today are just such "terrible simplifiers" with absurdly swollen egos.

How very different the personality that defined the old America and conceived the Constitution! In 1789, George Washington proclaimed a day of thanksgiving for all the good bestowed by Almighty God on the American people. He asked his fellow Americans to unite "in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the Great Lord and Ruler of nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions." This is the voice of the America that is passing. Today, increasingly, the imperialistic personality of Ashley and Eliot is being unleashed upon the world.

May 5, 2004

Claes G. Ryn [send him mail] is professor of politics at the Catholic University of America, chairman of the National Humanities Institute, and author, most recently, of America the Virtuous.



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Foreign Affairs; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: conservative; jacobins; libertarian; midgedecter; neocon; neoconservative; war
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To: cornelis; Dumb_Ox
The author is making the same points that R. Kirk was making when he cited that the our Constitution "was not for export." Hayek discussed the Gallacian distinction in detail:
1. Though freedom is not a state of nature but an artifact of civilization, it did not arise from design. The institutions of freedom, like everything freedom has created, were not established because people foresaw the benefits they would bring. But, once its advantages were recognized, men began to perfect and extend the reign of freedom and, for that purpose, to inquire how a free society worked. This development of a theory of liberty took place mainly in the eighteenth century. It began in two countries, England and France. The first of these knew liberty; the second did not.

As a result, we have had to the present day two different traditions in the theory of liberty: one empirical and unsystematic, the other speculative and rationalistic –the first based on an interpretation of traditions and institutions which had spontaneously grown up and were but imperfectly understood, the second aiming at the construction of a utopia, which has often been tried but never successfully. Nevertheless, it has been the rationalistic, plausible, and apparently logical argument of the French tradition, with its flattering assumptions about the unlimited powers of human reason, that has progressively gained influence, while the less articulate and less explicit tradition of English freedom has been on the decline.

This distinction is obscured by the fact that what we have called the “French tradition” of liberty arose largely from an attempt to interpret British institutions and that the conceptions which other countries formed of British institutions were based mainly on their descriptions by French writers. The two traditions became finally confused when they merged in the liberal movement of the nineteenth century and when even leading British liberals drew as much on the French as on the British tradition. It was, in the end, the victory of the Benthamite Philosophical Radicals over the Whigs in England that concealed the fundamental difference which in more recent years has reappeared as the conflict between liberal democracy and “social” or totalitarian democracy.

This difference was better understood a hundred years ago than it is today. In the year of the European revolutions in which the two traditions merged, the contract between “Anglican” and “Gallican” liberty was still clearly described by an eminent German-American political philosopher. “Gallican Liberty,” wrote Francis Lieber in 1848, “is sought in the government, and according to an Anglican point of view, it is looked for in the wrong place, where it cannot be found. Necessary consequences of the Gallican view are, that the French look for the highest degree of political civilization in organization, that is, in the highest degree of interference by public power. The question whether this interference be despotism or liberty is decided solely by the fact who interferes, and for the benefit of which class the interference takes place, while according to the Anglican view this interference would always be either absolutism or aristocracy, and the present dictatorship of the ouvriers would appear to us an uncompromising aristocracy of the ouvriers.”

Since this was written, the French tradition has everywhere progressively displaced the English.

And, of course, Burke began this understanding by pointing out that metaphysical constructs meaning to replace whole settled bodies of law and custom were the dangerous path of the unsettled.
41 posted on 05/05/2004 1:30:24 PM PDT by KC Burke (Men of intemperate minds can never be free....)
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To: KC Burke; Romulus; u-89; HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity; Zack Nguyen; quidnunc; Bonaparte; ...
It began in two countries, England and France. The first of these knew liberty; the second did not.

A very sententious excerpt and quite fitting. Thanks for posting it. It's about having a constitution that ensures attunement to normal human liberty. The opening chapter in Belloc's Danton also gives a summary. For Belloc, if there is any state of nature, it is one that demands perpetual reform, a homogeneity (not abolition) of the classes, and the recognition that no principle is so certain that it can resolve politics from the tension of historical existence. Why did England have the experience liberty? Because of a respectful continuity with the past? One that doesn't deny history? Ryn's depiction of our nascent national character, where "deference to grown-ups seems unknown," is typical of our own revolutionary glee at dispensing with others who have known better.

Again, thanks for the portion from Hayek. And tell Romulus is not entirely correct at post #8.

42 posted on 05/05/2004 10:09:05 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Trust me, reading leo strauss is one of the best cures for political ambition in the modern world. his students and he himself had no interest in politics, notwithstanding that some of their students went on to prominence.

Strauss was concerned with philosophy and hermeneutics, not so much with exporting revolution, etc.

This Strauss-bashing crap has got to stop. first the lefties blame him for Newt and Clarence thomas, now the Right blame him for a crusading policy with Machiavellian intentions.

Make up your minds, people. was he an evil rightist, a hidden leftist, or maybe, just maybe, a brilliant scholar who had some students who also went on into politics?
43 posted on 05/05/2004 11:07:18 PM PDT by epigone73
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To: AAABEST
neocon is a codeword for Jew.

Yep, after a long-winded theorizing, it usually boils down to a recitation of Jewish names. Jews are damned when they vote Democratic, and they are damned when they join the conservative ranks.

44 posted on 05/06/2004 8:39:23 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: dangus
You are a Jacobin, or is that just one of Cosmo Goldberg's lies?

Why did you ping me on this?

45 posted on 05/09/2004 9:43:43 AM PDT by SquirrelKing ("...US Marines have done more for world peace than all the Ben & Jerry's ever made." - PJ O'Rourke)
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To: SquirrelKing
Oh, it was a joke... I made reference to Cosmo before and you seemed to get the joke, so I thought I'd see how far I could stretch it... The mascot of National Review is Jonah Goldber's dog, Cosmo... The running joke is that Cosmo hates "Jacobin squirrels."
46 posted on 05/09/2004 2:19:48 PM PDT by dangus
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To: u-89
Midge Decter, the controversial new president of the society, praised the United States as embodying universally applicable principles, and endorsed the aggressive foreign policy that is the hallmark of the Bush administration.

Well, I'm no advocate of democracy (as you will know if you've ever read any of my other posts), but this hatred of universals evinced by the "palaeos" is nothing but paganism. It is a rehash of the old lie that "indigenous" (if you're leftwing) or "autochthonous" (if you're rightwing) peoples "evolve" their cultures and their values slowly over the eons and that each "evolves" what is best for it. This is simply polytheism/henotheism. A different "gxd" for each culture perhaps? Hmmm?

They have propounded a new myth – the myth of America the Virtuous – according to which America is a unique and noble country called to remake the world in its own image. The myth provides another sweeping justification for dominating others.

Right. Every true conservative knows this is a lousy country that exterminated Indians, enslaved Blacks, stole the southwest from "indigenous/authochthonous" Mexicans, obliterated the quaint Japanese emperor-worship (just because our ships got in the way of their bombs) etc., etc., etc.

One kind of universalist ideology, communism, has been replaced by the ideology of American empire, and the stage is set for another cycle of crusading. With neo-Jacobins shaping U.S. foreign policy, whether as Democrats or Republicans, America and the world can expect an era of chronic conflict.

Once upon a time "chr*stendom" believed it had the one true religion which the rest of the world had to accept (in fact, they sort of invented "crusading"). It's amazing how many anti-universalist "palaeos" embrace this allegedly "universal" religion. Maybe they don't think it takes its universalism so seriously, huh? Maybe they think of it as merely the evolved religion of "the west."

Could any goal be more appealing to the will to power than ending evil? The task is not only enormous but endless. No conservative would need to be told that evil cannot be "ended"

Nope, no "true conservative" believes that evil is anything less than eternal. There's no ultimate victory of good in an apocalyptic, messianic, eschatological Kingdom of G-d, is there (that there'd be liberal commie do-goodism!)? I suppose Communism is ultimately the fault of orthodox religious messianism. So "palaeos" advocate heterodoxy in religion?

Already the Muslim world is seething with hostility.

Yep! It was only a matter of time!

China, which has long found Western hegemony intolerable and is already strongly prone to nationalism, can be expected to respond to American assertiveness by greatly expanding its military power. If present trends continue, the time should soon be ripe – in 50 years perhaps? – for a horrendous Sino-American confrontation.

But I thought that "palaeos" wanted to invade China and Cuba and was just against fighting their Arab darlings! Don't some "palaeos" insist that Israel secretly runs China and Cuba and that therefore it's all right to impose an American imperium on them?

For Christians, the cardinal sin is pride. Before them, the Greeks warned similarly of the great dangers of conceit and arrogance. Hubris, they said, violates the order of the cosmos, and inflicts great suffering on human beings. It invites Nemesis. On the Apollonian temple at Delphi two inscriptions summed up the proper attitude to life. One was "Everything in moderation," the other "Know Thyself." To know yourself meant most importantly to recognize that you are not one of the gods but a mere mortal.

Yeppers. Different ways of putting it in different (all equally valid, "autochthonous" cultures). But doesn't that make it sound like a--gasp!--universal truth??? Oh well. Mustn't give in to the commie one-world notion of there being but One G-d and One True Religion which must eventually triumph over all others. That's Jacobinism, unless it's done by "palaeos" praying to "our lady of Fatima."

As for the old Hebrews, in Proverbs (16:18) we read: "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

What's this??? The Talmudic Khazars who are the source of all the eeee-vil in the world (that is to say, if evil is defined as the "Jacobin" belief that good and evil exist) being invoked by a righteous anti-universal "palaeo???" It is these very Hebrews (whose ancestors turned ancient Egypt into a COMMIE STATE under SOVIET DICTATOR JOSEPH and who were finally expelled by those fine upstanding autochthonous Egyptians when Moses fluoridated their drinking water!!! [/sarcasm]

The world needs "moral clarity," not obfuscation.

True conservatives of course despise moral clarity as much as they do the notion that a religion can be translated from the culture in which it "evolved" to another.

Many of those who shape the destiny of America and the world today are just such "terrible simplifiers" with absurdly swollen egos.

And of course true conservatives look with disdain on those with simplistic, good vs. evil worldviews. Maybe Revilo P. Oliver (y'sh"v) was right and the very concept of "good and evil" is so "alien" to the "aryan" mind that we should expunge it.

In 1789, George Washington proclaimed a day of thanksgiving for all the good bestowed by Almighty God on the American people.

The American "gxd," right? I mean, unless each nation "evolves" its own "gxd" and its own autochthonous worldview, crusading Wilsonianism is just around the corner, right?

He asked his fellow Americans to unite "in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the Great Lord and Ruler of nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions."

What??? "'The Ruler of nations???'" Treason! This is unadulterated Judaeophilia!!! One G-d implies one religion and the eventual accessions of all mankind to it, and that's the death knell of autochthony/indigenousness! And you know what that causes??? RACE MIXING!!! And not the good kind (Arabs), but the bad kind, with all those other people!

And the author teaches at Catholic University of America? So rightwing Catholics now officially believe chr*stianity is the religion of "western man" alone and that the other autochthonous cultures of the world should be left alone??? It's utterly amazing how many "catholics" are opposed to any sort of universal truth as being a radical "jacobin" concept.

And as a signature, I am not an advocate of democracy, Wilsonianism, American empire, or even foreign aid, but I am disgusted by the concept of subjective, utilitarian, national/cultural religion. If there is no One G-d Whose rule will eventually be recognized by all mankind then not only do "right and wrong" not exist, but all other ideologies (including "true conservative" ones that oppose the concept of "right and wrong") have no reason to exist either. Either reality is defined by the One G-d or it is made up of random chaos in which all ideological positions/goals are futile and illogical. The sin of Communism was that it was a non-Theistically based moral system. And apparently many "palaeos" subscribe to one as well. And there isn't a dime worthof difference between one non-Theisticall based moral system and another.

How odd that traditional morality (adhered to by some as Divinely revealed and by others as a product of eons of cultural evolution) should join on the same side of the political spectruem the True Believers (this writer) and the disciples of H. L. Mencken (y'sh"v) and the hoarde of professional Puritan-bashers. And I think people who chant "spiritual messiah" while advocating Caesaro-papism are hypocrites.

Either "conservatism" is what G-d says it is or it is merely another false system that must be rejected.

Click here if you dare!

47 posted on 05/09/2004 3:20:50 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Are the Ten Commandments an appropriate "multicultural" decoration for Shavu`ot?)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
this hatred of universals evinced by the "palaeos" is nothing but paganism

If and when there is such a hatred. However, they recognize that politics sits one step lower, if you get my drift (see reply #11). And that's where Ryn and others come from. They would espouse a constitution for liberty whose order is between the chaos of anarchy and the tyranny of universalized democracy or any other such millenial Reichs. Politics as such is historical existence--as long as that may be--without the consummation of the ages implied by the annihilation of evil. And politics as such does not espouse human mortality for the sake of embracing an all equally valid, "autochthonous" cultures. It admits that human empire and universals are not coeval and will never share the same destiny.

Hopefully these clarifications are not already made pointless by the usual polemicist's grandstanding. I can always trust they don't need to be.

48 posted on 05/09/2004 5:36:53 PM PDT by cornelis
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One postscript: Ryn appears on the Rockwell site. But it will take a lot to convince me "they" are all the same.
49 posted on 05/09/2004 5:39:55 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: u-89
There is something about the characterization, though the paleos are so alienated from contemporary American life that just about everything here would look "Jacobin" to them. Today's world is very different from that of Ryn's hero Irving Babbitt (who was himself quite alienated from the rest of the country during his own lifetime), so there's little hope than anything about today's America would satisfy Ryn. We can change or at least examine what we do much more easily than what we are, and that's probably where the appeal ought to be directed.
50 posted on 05/09/2004 6:11:54 PM PDT by x
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To: x
Alienated? Really now, x. You've played a curious card. I suppose the senior generation must yield, like Ortega describes it. But alienated? Babbit was a titanic ant (to steal imagery from Delsol's Icarus Fallen). Alienated, on the other hand, is that very special term reserved--I presume you are well aware--for those who play the Faustian themes.
51 posted on 05/09/2004 6:32:53 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: cornelis
Thank you for your thoughtful and non-polemical reply.

I do not believe in any human system. However, man has been given (first to Adam, then to Noah, then to Abraham, and finally at Sinai) a system from Heaven. This system in no way abolishes the historical nations of mankind, but it does deny that the nations/races have separate origins (apart from Adam) or that religion is a subjective cultural trait that springs from the "blood and soil."

As for the distinction between history and metaphysics, it all depends on whose ox is being gored. Today's anti-messianic "palaeoconservatives" for the most part belong to a church which until very recently claimed the right to rule the world. Why isn't this "messianism" or "chiliasm" or "millenialism?" What about the "period of peace" that "our lady of Fatima" has allegedly promised mankind? Is this not millenialism? Is this not messianism? I fail to see why placing the "messiah" in heaven and having him rule the world through human proxies is any more "spiritual" or "supernatural" or whatever than insisting that it is the Messiah's job to rule the world personally from Jerusalem. The refusal to address this--the condemnation of messianism while clinging to the church that taught a proxy messianism for so long--is nothing but hypocritical. Or at least, I hope you can see why I would interpret it as such. And how many "palaeos" who attack universal systems illogically turn right around and either worship the medieval Catholic utopian "theocracy" or even advocate a return to that "theocracy?" Why is it that I can't get a "palaeo" to deal with this blatant contradiction?

Is it just that you guys don't want the "neos" to rule the world because you want to rule it yourselves?

As for the other aspects of "palaeoconservatism," I actually subscribe to many of them myself. But I am by definition disqualified from being a "palaeo" because instead of chr*stianity as the hope of the world I believe it lies instead in an older (and therefore inherently more conservative) religion--a religion which everyone other than me insists on identifying with modernity, but which I (apparently alone) still interpret as patriarchs with tents full of concubines, pastoral shepherds offering animal sacrifices, King David sitting on his throne, and Yehoshu`a Bin Nun slicing through Canaanites at a rate that no medieval crusader could have equalled.

The insistence that the Jews and their supporters are inherently "modern" or "anti-traditional" or "subversive" or "corrosive of morality" infuriates me as nothing else does (especially when it involves certain homosexuals who think they have the right to look down on Jerry Falwell as "not a true conservative" because he doesn't hate Jews). I have speculated on what lies behind this thinking in some of the articles at my web site. But at any rate, if Catholics can condemn Protestantism for introducing modernism by abolishing the mass, then how much the more can Judaism make the same accusation against chr*stianity for replacing the literal sacrifices with a "mystical" one. If this was not the first step from G-d-centered, cultic religion to a "religion of pure ethics" then Catholics can shut their yaps about how all Protestants are liberals who don't know it.

52 posted on 05/09/2004 6:44:18 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Are the Ten Commandments an appropriate "multicultural" decoration for Shavu`ot?)
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To: x; diotima
Another afterthought: Was it a god . . . ? That is the question. And Marx knew how alienated that makes a man. And Strauss, too, loved the question, although one must wonder if he did in the way that Socrates did. Religion can be "sublimated" in so many ways.
53 posted on 05/09/2004 6:46:55 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: mrsmith
That darn neocon Thomas Jefferson

How would Jefferson be a neocon by today's definition? Hamilton, Clay, and their political lineage I can easily see but Jefferson?

54 posted on 05/09/2004 6:48:56 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
the condemnation of messianism while clinging to the church that taught a proxy messianism

That could be a contradiction, but contradiction must be part of life in middle-earth, life in the shadowlands--to borrow imagery from a protestant and a catholic-- for rule when there is no Messiah, as yet, to be had.

55 posted on 05/09/2004 7:03:12 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: u-89
To me, the more intersting facet of this article is the domestic policy aspect.

Although the classical and Christian view of human nature has eroded, big government still has a bad name in America. Challenging the Constitution outright remains risky. Americans attracted to the Jacobin spirit have therefore sought instead to redefine American principles so as to make them more serviceable to the will to power.

Before 911, I sadly scraped the Bush campaign stickers off my car. I was shocked at the spending, the expansion, the capitulation to big government ideas apparent in the Kennedy education bill, the kowtowing to poverty pimp loudmouths, the spineless reality of 'compassionate conservatism' and the 'new tone'.

With the war, however, I'm truly in favor of it. WE WERE ATTACKED. They want us dead. They can't be talked out of it or reconciled with.

I just wish we would use some nuclear subs instead of tanks and humvees to do the job. That method spills less American blood.

56 posted on 05/09/2004 7:14:07 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (Forget ANWR -- Drill Israel!)
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To: billbears
Jefferson a neocon-- yeah, I caught that too, but I didn't feel like getting into a seventh grade American History lesson. *sigh*

And you're right about Hamilton!

57 posted on 05/09/2004 7:19:59 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (Forget ANWR -- Drill Israel!)
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To: cornelis
for rule when there is no Messiah, as yet, to be had.

He's ruling all right... and His rule is the only solution to Islam. Certainly not the 'carrot and stick' game we are trying to play with them. It may work for some, but the true believers don't want security and prosperity. They want war and death. Individuals such as that must either be changed by Christ Himself, (through the work of christians) or killed.

The third way is the Hiroshima/ Nagasaki strategy, dealing with them as a nation and disregarding the individuals for now.

The flaw there is that we were almost crippled by nineteen individuals.

58 posted on 05/09/2004 7:26:10 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (Forget ANWR -- Drill Israel!)
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To: cornelis
the condemnation of messianism while clinging to the church that taught a proxy messianism

That could be a contradiction, but contradiction must be part of life in middle-earth, life in the shadowlands--to borrow imagery from a protestant and a catholic-- for rule when there is no Messiah, as yet, to be had.

Now you're not making any sense.

Are you justifying the hypocrisy of opposing someone else's universal utopian system while promoting your own? Are you saying that an imperfect world justifies your religion's condemning Jewish messianism while claiming the right to rule the world? Are you saying that Jerry Falwell is a "heretic" for believing that your Nazarene is going to rule the world from Jerusalem but it is perfectly hunky dory for you to believe that "our lady of Fatima" is going to bring about a chr*stian world order ruled by the Pope at some time in the future? Are you saying that an imperfect world that can accommodate the utopian messianism of the medieval Crusades cannot accommodate the utopian messianism of the "neocons?" If so you are a hypocrite, plain and simple.

At least you could have the decency to say "the difference is that we're right and you're wrong." But you when I point out these maddening hypocrisies you just shrug your shoulders? Shrug them at the "neos!"

And Judaism is an older religion than chr*stianity, and therefore more conservative, and nothing in the world can change that obvious and self-evident fact.

59 posted on 05/09/2004 7:27:53 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Are the Ten Commandments an appropriate "multicultural" decoration for Shavu`ot?)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Christians and Jews await the only Messiah.
60 posted on 05/09/2004 9:25:13 PM PDT by cornelis
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