TROOPS 'SWAPPED HUNDREDS OF ABUSE PICTURES'

Drudge Report ^ | 5/2/04 | Matt Drudge

[wagglebee]

Hundreds of photographs have been taken of British servicemen mistreating Iraqi civilians, it was claimed tonight.

Troops serving in southern Iraq have been swapping the pictures among themselves, said the unnamed soldiers from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment who sparked furore over the weekend by releasing photos apparently showing UK personnel abusing an Iraqi prisoner.

The potentially explosive claims, if proven, would contradict Prime Minister Tony Blair's assurance that any misconduct in British ranks was "exceptional" and limited to a handful of servicemen.

Doubts were cast today on the authenticity of the photos, published in the Daily Mirror yesterday, which appeared to show the hooded man being struck with a rifle butt, urinated on and having a gun held to his head.

Sources close to the regiment claimed the rifle, hats and truck seen in the pictures did not match those issued to men in Iraq, and queried why there was no sign of sweat, dirt or injuries on the body of the victim of the alleged assault.

But tonight the soldiers who made the pictures public told the Mirror: "We stand by every single word of our story.

"This happened, it is not a hoax and the Army knows a lot more has happened."

The Royal Military Police is carrying out an urgent inquiry into claims that the man was subjected to an eight-hour ordeal after being picked up in Iraq for suspected theft last year.

It was claimed that he had his jaw broken and teeth smashed before being dumped from a moving vehicle.

In tomorrow's edition of the Mirror, the soldiers detail other alleged incidents of brutality towards local people, including a baton attack which left a prisoner with a compound fracture to his arm.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, one of the soldiers said: "Maybe the officers don't know what is going on - but everybody else does. I have seen literally hundreds of pictures."

Many of the pictures were destroyed last September when the soldiers' luggage was searched as they left Iraq, they said.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman said the authorities were not aware of other photos of prisoners being mistreated or of a culture of trading pictures.

"If people have got evidence of such activity, then they should bring it to the attention of the Army authorities. We won't stand for activity like that," he said.

[oceanview]

wow, they broke one guy's arm, terrible, just terrible.

[FairOpinion]

Yawn.

Stupid, but I think they are beating this story to death.

Why isn't it front page news that Muslim terrorists poisoned little 8 year old girls in Afghanistan, because they object to little girls going to school?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1128319/posts

I think that's a much bigger story than embarrassing some terrorists, with even their faces not being shown.

Frankly I couldn't care less, what anyone would do to the terrorists, because whatever they would do, isn't enough.

[Arpege92]

What took them so long in reporting this abuse?

[Hildy]

There's something fishy about this whole story.

[CindyDawg]

Funny how all this coming out at the same time.

[MHGinTN]

Homosexuality in the British Army is winked at and totally tolerated. There's a clue for you, even with faked photos.

[sauropod]

Y'know, it isn't often I agree w/ you but this time I do.

[ikka]

Churchill's quote on the three traditions of the Royal Navy: "rum, buggery, and the lash".

However I do wonder how much of this is true. Could the photos have been staged, then shown to the other prisoners as examples of "what will happen" if they don't talk?

[wagglebee]

Yeah, it seems really strange how things that supposedly happened a year ago are coming out now.

[Squantos]

Seems funny that the weapons that the brits (a version of the SA80 that isn't in country ) have in the pics aren't issued to troops in Iraq. Also anyone find it strange that the pics of the US MP's alledgedly mistreating Iraqi's are all dressed in woodlands vs issue 3 color desert BDU ?

Just a few questions that I have .........Stay safe !

[Eurotwit]

Did you see the times stories I just posted?

Lack of blood, bruises and dirt give hint that army 'abuse' pictures were staged

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1128413/posts

[RegT]

Notice that 'many' of the alleged photos were burnt at a checkpoint? How convenient.

[RegT]

Actually it dosen't say 'burnt', but 'destroyed'. Same deal.

[New Perspective]

Why isn't it front page news that Muslim terrorists poisoned little 8 year old girls in Afghanistan, because they object to little girls going to school?

I will give you 2 choices.

A)The media in our free world can cover a story which is covered under the first amendment.

B)Mention this to someone in the press in front of a terrorist, and you will have your head removed from your body.

Now in which country are you going to make a stink in?? I think we know the answer already.

[CindyDawg]

You know, I know this sounds bad but I'm really not upset if some of our guys roughed these terrorists up. They shouldn't and should be told to knock it off but it's probably kind of hard to "play nice" when you are seeing your buddies getting blown up and know what kind of horrors these men have inflicted on us and their own.

[HRoarke]

They knew it was wrong when they were doing it and should be punished.

It is also worth saying that not every Iraqi soldier deserves to be lumped in with terrorists and there is no proof that the people being abused were of any special importance.

This happened a year ago and there have been rumblings about it, just no pictures before now, so I don't buy the "it's all a hoax" theory either.

No one deserves to be pissed on.

[RegT]

I cannot agree with you.

This whole thing has made me sick. It is a disgrace to the likes of Pat Tillman who proudly wore the uniform. In addition, it is completely counterproductive to the mission we are trying to accomplish there.

[river rat]

I wouldn't know one Brit weapon from another....

But - I am confident we wouldn't be hearing any of this clap trap if we hadn't taken any of these lunatics as prisoners...

No one in their right mind would want to be responsible for guarding, careing for or sustaining these freaking lunatics...

All militant Islamics confronted in battle, should be destroyed....
Clean, neat and final...

Semper Fi

[sweneop]

You know, I know this sounds bad but I'm really not upset if some of our guys roughed these terrorists up.

iraqi pow's are terrorists now, too?

[CindyDawg]

Did you not see that I said they shouldn't. I just said I could understand if they did . I don't think it happened though. Just too convenient, all this stuff coming out at once. I think someone overplayed their hand.

[af_vet_1981]

I don't understand why they took these pictures. I don't understand their evil delight in abuse. My policy would be to simply medicate these folks and take their information, not to degrade and humiliate them.

[Squantos]

We're better that these animals and "if" this did occur it was limited to very few individuals. POW's are handled in a very hard and firm manner with security and intelligence gathering being a priority. Stripped naked , flex cuffs, sandbag over the head is SOP. Was for my three conflicts where I either searched the enemy or witnessed their processing. When we transported "cuban construction" workers to Mexico City we flew with the ramp down and all crew harnessed in. If the POW's tried to escape or commandeer the AC the plan was to climb straight up and dump em into the gulf. No seats or seat belts for nice cuban contractors.......:o)

They could swim home.

In Panama and Desert Storm we used glass tape and duct tape w/ a sand bag. A long piece of 550 cord was half hitched around the crown jewels to ensure they didn't run off in different directions...............very far.

Guess these folks would'nt like to hear about a long double half hitch of 40 grain per foot det cord daisy chained over a few dozen VC's necks with a dual primed M60 on one inch of time fuse and NE caps in their lone escorts grasp..........

War ain't pretty. It really ain't pretty if yer captured and losin.

Stay Safe !

[CindyDawg]

Not sure if I ticked you off too. Sorry guys.

[MrsPatriot]

I wonder how coalition prisoners, Matt Maupin and others, are being treated?

[bluefish]

Interesting that all this is coming out at about the same time that the corrupt "Food for Oil" UN scandal of the century was starting to gain serious traction. There is huge money in all this. It isn't just opposing political philophy or religion. Many powerful people are poised to be very embarrassed. This whole story could very well be just one of the pawns in a huge chess game.

[wagglebee]

Many powerful people are poised to be very embarrassed.

Actually, they should go to prison and it should start with Annan, Chirac and Clinton.

[Balding_Eagle]

All militant Islamics confronted in battle, should be destroyed....

Clean, neat and final...

Agreed. I've often expressed my gratitude about those soldiers who just killed 'em in the field.

[Reactionary]

My guess is they were fabricated by the KLA.

[FITZ]

You know, I know this sounds bad but I'm really not upset if some of our guys roughed these terrorists up.

Considering it's Saddam's thugs they supposedly did this to --- although nothing seems very certain about that --- it's hard to do a whole lot of handwringing about it. The Iraqi army killed it's own citizens, the kinds of abuses the Kurds, Shiites, and Iranians suffered at their hands makes you not cry too hard for them being mocked.

[river rat]

"Guess these folks would'nt like to hear about a long double half hitch of 40 grain per foot det cord daisy chained over a few dozen VC's necks with a dual primed M60 on one inch of time fuse and NE caps in their lone escorts grasp..........

You da man!....You fuse lighters are a blast!
On the other hand, I ain't talkin....
Our Gunny was very selective about POWs....he didn't want any...

Did I ever tell you about the time we asked our EOD to clear an emergency LZ to allow a MediVac in to get some Marines in bad shape...

The kid, using only cord and small plastic charges - with one BLAST - cleared a fine LZ. But it damned near blinded everyone nearby, when the chopper came in and sent 10 billion splinters flying in every direction!!!!

Our single Corpsman was busy for HOURS, pulling splinters out of the strangest spots.....and by the way, NO Purple Hearts......

Semper Fi

[Mo1]

Sources close to the regiment claimed the rifle, hats and truck seen in the pictures did not match those issued to men in Iraq, and queried why there was no sign of sweat, dirt or injuries on the body of the victim of the alleged assault.

What's your take??

This story gets odder and odder

[luvbach1]

"...iraqi pow's are terrorists now, too?

The people captured since the fall of Baghdad and Saddam are not from intact Iraqi units, and thus deserving of standard POW status. These units were decimated or dispersed in the first weeks of the war. Some joined the terrorist bands carrying out terrorist attacks against Iraqis an Americans alike. So many of the so-called POWs undoubtedly are terrorists.

[Squantos]

I'm happy knowing just the right amount of C-4 to stuff up a bulls ass to blow his horns off without making his eyes water...........:o)

Still trying to learn to juggle though..........Stay safe !

[MEG33]

It's what separates us from the terrorists,sadistic Saddamites and those who would poison little girls to keep them from school.There are always going matters of police brutality and tempers exploding over one's dead comrades.If one is trying to save lives,psychological stress is warranted.Physical torture is not allowed .

It is hopefully kept to a minimum.Strip searching is not abuse.It is a life saver.It is odd that the Brit pictures don't seem authentic to the area they were taken or the uniform,etc. is questioned.

[The_Media_never_lie]

Churchill's quote on the three traditions of the Royal Navy: "rum, buggery, and the lash".

Wasn't Churchill an Army guy? Should he be believed?

[CindyDawg]

Isn't it strange how the women are posting like this but the guys upset. I would have thought it would be right the opposite.
I guess it's because I have 2 in the navy. I don't even want to think about how these killers would treat them if they were ever in that situation and then I think of the moms of these young people that have been injured or killed and I think, so, my heart isn't going to bleed for these "thugs"

[skr]

However I do wonder how much of this is true. Could the photos have been staged, then shown to the other prisoners as examples of "what will happen" if they don't talk?

Something worth considering. Otherwise, why have photos at all? How do we know those are Iraqis under those hoods?

[not2worry]

Didn't tick me off. Thanks for serving our Country.

Your right War is not Pretty. It's very easy for everyone to be quarterback generals. Wonder how Saddam is being treated? Probably will be a request to send him to the Qatar Ritz Carlton until his trial.

Maybe another more humane option would be to send all the guys to Michael Jackson's Neverland. The Nation of Islam wold probably welcome them with open arms and Mikey could make the boys feel right at home.

Excuse the sarcasm.

Las Thought: I wonder if this could be something started by Larry Flint. He did predict some incriminating evidence would soon be coming out to disgrace President Bush.

[JLO]

"To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
Sources close to the regiment claimed the rifle, hats and truck seen in the pictures did not match those issued to men in Iraq, and queried why there was no sign of sweat, dirt or injuries on the body of the victim of the alleged assault.
What's your take??

This story gets odder and odder"


Mol, my take on this being odder and odder, IS BECAUSE there apparently MUCH confusion. Which is odd to me, because I've been following the stories quite closely.

When you say "Sources close to the regiment claimed the rifle, hats and truck seen in the pictures did not match those issued to men in Iraq, and queried why there was no sign of sweat, dirt or injuries on the body of the victim of the alleged assault."

IS BECAUSE it's not about the US, this is from reports from the UK!

The photos are different from what's been so widespread recently. The photos the report you mention are in B&W - different story, altogether. Freqently intermingled/interchanged all over the place.

[LibWhacker]

10 . . . 9 . . . 8 . . . 7 . . . 6 . . .

Ciao, chump!

[JasonC]

Before WW I, Churchill was a cavalry officer, and served in Afghanistan, Sudan, and South Africa. After the Boer war, he was elected to Parliament and resigned his commission. During WW I, Churchill was in the cabinet as First Lord of the Admiralty - like the secretary of the navy over here. He was forced from that office after the Dardenelles invasion attempt failed. He promptly volunteered from the western front, where he rose to command an infantry brigade by the end of the war. In the interwar years he had some government posts in the 20s, but spent the 30s as a backbencher. Then the war he had long predicted broke out, and he was invited into the government. He was minister of war early in WW II, then became Prime Minister when Chamberlain resigned after the fall of France. Churchill signed his cables to FDR "former naval person".

[Aeronaut]

Orbat.com analysis: There is a subtle subtext here and we wonder if the media realizes it. You cannot break a prisoner in a few hours by beating him. Motivated men can hold out for days or even weeks against such treatment. Certainly beating him can provide a promising start to the real pressure. US intel agencies specialize in breaking the mind of prisoners rather than their bodies, for obvious reasons. They have considerable expertise and their tactic is to use psychological profiles based specifically on the prisoner's background, region, nationality and so on. An American prisoner chained naked to a post and forced to wear women's panties or be forced to stimulate sex acts with other prisoners would not react the same way an Iraqi male would. For an Iraqi, the humiliation will be so extreme that he will break quickly.

That the prisoners involved were of interest to MI is no accident. MI needs up to date information and fast. In a conventional battle situation, the typical prisoner is just a cog in a giant machine and little will be learned by torture. In a guerilla war situation, the individual, no matter insignificant, can yield critical information - for example - about the next attack. The prisoners concerned, incidentally, had been captured while attacking US forces. These methods are used because they are needed to save lives. All armies use them. The problem becomes to apply the minimum force required to get the information. Persons involved in torturing others can with dismaying and frightening speed fall into enjoying something they previously might have thought revolting. They can, then, inflict gratuitous violence and humiliation. The looser the standard of training, the greater the problem. Its already clear the MP unit involved was inadequately trained for POW duty. For the MP general to blame US military intelligence is futile: you can break a prisoner and still avoid the thrills of taking pictures while you smile away and pantomime disgusting actions. That the MPs assumed they could do this and boast about it shows a serious laxity on the part of the overall commander. To our mind, the crime is not the interrogation techniques. It is wholly unsoldierly actions of the MPs after their work is done.

[sweneop]

many of them are pows.

and im finding it hard to define them as terorrists here anyway... are they members of a terrorist organisation? there are times where terrorism as a definition is very clear cut, but this isnt one of them. even for more recent captures its hard to define someone who is fighting an army (even using urban guerilla tactics) as terrorists. if you start diluting that term too much it will lose all its meaning.

or is the new definition for terrorist: 'arab'?

[AmishDude]

Bottom line: If you fire at a member of a uniformed army while not wearing a uniform, you are an enemy combatant, which is the international law version of a terrorist. Hence, you don't get POW protection.

[luvbach1]

...finding it hard to define them as terorrists here anyway

With due respect, I don't have much difficulty defining them as terrorists. One who commits a terrorist act is a terrorist. I don't care if he is a card-carrying member of a terrorist organization or not. In the case of Iraq, many of the terrorists are ad hoc bands, but terrorists nonetheless. As to what constututes terrorist acts in the Iraq context,I don't have much difficulty with that either. Example: shooting of Iraqis headed to work; blowing up Iraqis waiting for work; blowing up civilian convoys of supplies and food that would benefit Iraqis as well as the coalition; blowing up water lines; attacking oil facilities, etc. I don't even dignify them as guerillas since the motives of trying to liberate Iraq from the American-led coalition is not their goal. Instead, if they succeeded in forcing an American retreat, they would impose another oppressive dictatorship of as-yet undefined composition as well as turn Iraq into a terrorist-harboring center ala Afghanistan.

[kimosabe31]

Doubts were cast today on the authenticity of the photos, published in the Daily Mirror yesterday, which appeared to show the hooded man being struck with a rifle butt, urinated on and having a gun held to his head.

This entire bruhaha looks phoney to me. These photos could easily have been shot on a typical saturday night on any campus fraternity row in the US or any night of the week on capital hill. The hoods are probably to conceal the identities of congressmen and senators many of whom are right now pointing the finger of accusation and shouting the loudest in protest over this alleged abuse.

[KOZ.]

i think this story was 'broken' to cover the swift boat guys that are coming out against kerry. that event is totally masked by the press and by this story.