Lessons from other U.S. ‘quagmires’ (a letter to the Washington Times)

The Washington Times | 04/18/04 | Raafat S. Toss

[Bigg Red]

President Bush has reminded us that we will prevail in the war in Iraq (“Bush holds to June 30 turnover,” Page 1, Wednesday). But over the next few months, the important names to remember aren’t Fallujah, Baghdad and Najaf but Gettysburg, Antietam and Normandy.

During the battle at Gettysburg, the victors lost 20 percent of their men. At Antietam, more than 23,000 men were killed or wounded on that single, endless September day. During the Normandy landings, America lost 500 men a minute. We stand today only because they refused to stand idly while evil ran rampant. We need to be reminded of that. Not only reminded of the loss, but also of the justice, sacrifice and liberty that each drop of blood spilled during those perilous times represents.

Pictures of dead Iraqi children, killed American soldiers and crying parents from both countries cannot stand alone. They must be tempered with the justice that justifies each indelible crimson-stained spot of earth left at Valley Forge or Antietam or Normandy or any other battle where life traded places with liberty.

We need to be reminded that we will not prevail because we’re bigger. Facing potentially horrific results (even in battles won), we need to know that America (at least the idea of America) is right.

We will prevail because the blood that flows through us Americans is a strange brew. It is part courage – the courage of recent immigrants, who left their own lands for liberty, and the courage of former immigrants who formed this country – and part humility – the humility that we are in a grand experiment that can succeed only with the help of God’s divine providence and man’s eternal vigilance. We will prevail because justice anywhere is a threat to injustice everywhere.

We will prevail because liberty tried is liberty triumphant.

Raafat S. Toss

Jersey City, NJ

[Bigg Red]

I don’t know who this correspondent is – he may well be a Freeper – but I think he makes excellent points rather eloquently. (Although I don’t agree with his inclusion of the Civil War in the equation.)

I typed this from my hardcopy of the newspaper, so I apologize if there are any typos.

[MegaSilver]

Although I don’t agree with his inclusion of the Civil War in the equation.

:)

Being born in Arizona, raised in New York and Colorado, I tend to count myself out of the Civil War debate.

[cripplecreek]

The civil war isn't really an issue these days, unless states versus federal rights come up.

[Coop]

More "proof" of the 9/11 New Jersey factor! :-)

[IGOTMINE]

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=Raafat+S%2E+Toss

[SMARTY]

A couple of things. First, it's time someone reminded the American public that people like my father went to the service in '41 and never saw home or leave for something like 4 years. It CAN be done if necessary. Also, it is important to include the American Civil War experience in the debate because the conflict and everything leading up to it and resulting from it, to this day, is very much a part of any understanding of America. I have always thought that ignorance about the American Civil war is what gives Europeans such an incomplete and inaccurate understanding of America.

[WoofDog123]

A big diff. here is that the US was fighting the historical battles mentioned to WIN, not to appease public opinion while trying to win. More civilians were killed in any one of MANY nights of allied/us bombing of germany OR japan than iraqi civilians in the entire war. If the US had entered wwii in europe with the same engagement notions it has now, the map of europe would be a LOT different today, and not to the advantage of the us/uk.

[Coop]

It's difficult to compare this letter to the ACLU, which apparently this author (if indeed the same person) is tied to via the GILC - as your search reveals. Strange.

[jcb8199]

"America lost 500 men a minute."

Beauty.

[Henchman]

"Prevail" = MORE DEAD AMERICAN SOLDIERS IN IRAQ. I supported Bush, Iraq etc., but to negoriatie with the terrorists, fail to take away their weapons, fail to hold to the demand for the murderers of the 4 Americans ripped apart etc means we will prevail without honor. When we leave, these towel heads will go back to killing each other in their "peaceful" religious ways, and all some American mothers will have is a triangle shaped flag, a few medals etc.

The valor of the soldiers is the same in all wars. No one can equate IRAQ to any of our wars, even the Civil War between the States, because there was honor in the reasone to wage those wars. Bush failed to pull out after the win, he is failing to take out the Syrians who most likely harbor the WMD he talked about, and he permits them and the Iraniasn to send, arm, and support ($70 million a week) the insurgents in Iraq.

Perhaps Bush is no longer a religious fundamentalist, seems he is listening to the Omans in Iraq and doing their bidding or afraid to go against them. There is no honor here anymore.

[Henchman]

"Prevail" = MORE DEAD AMERICAN SOLDIERS IN IRAQ. I supported Bush, Iraq etc., but to negoriatie with the terrorists, fail to take away their weapons, fail to hold to the demand for the murderers of the 4 Americans ripped apart etc means we will prevail without honor. When we leave, these towel heads will go back to killing each other in their "peaceful" religious ways, and all some American mothers will have is a triangle shaped flag, a few medals etc.

The valor of the soldiers is the same in all wars. No one can equate IRAQ to any of our wars, even the Civil War between the States, because there was honor in the reasone to wage those wars. Bush failed to pull out after the win, he is failing to take out the Syrians who most likely harbor the WMD he talked about, and he permits them and the Iraniasn to send, arm, and support ($70 million a week) the insurgents in Iraq.

Perhaps Bush is no longer a religious fundamentalist, seems he is listening to the Omans in Iraq and doing their bidding or afraid to go against them. There is no honor here anymore.

[17th Miss Regt]

During the Normandy landings, America lost 500 men a minute.

This may be a typo. If not, this is wrong. In the first 24 hours, 130,000 troops were landed. At this rate they would all have been lost in about 4 hours.

[Tacis]

Kennedy and Kerry and the other lying crap weasels like the Iraq = Viet Nam model.

It seems to me that a much better model is the Iraq = Germany or Japan. I've not seen this anywhere. Am I missing something? We clobbered both, occupied both against opposition, turned them into democracies and then, turned them lose. Why isn't Iraq our current Germany or Japan?

[Coop]

I supported Bush, Iraq etc., but to negoriatie with the terrorists, fail to take away their weapons, fail to hold to the demand for the murderers of the 4 Americans ripped apart etc means we will prevail without honor. When we leave, these towel heads will go back to killing each other in their "peaceful" religious ways, and all some American mothers will have is a triangle shaped flag, a few medals etc. The valor of the soldiers is the same in all wars. No one can equate IRAQ to any of our wars, even the Civil War between the States, because there was honor in the reasone to wage those wars. Bush failed to pull out after the win, he is failing to take out the Syrians who most likely harbor the WMD he talked about, and he permits them and the Iraniasn to send, arm, and support ($70 million a week) the insurgents in Iraq. Perhaps Bush is no longer a religious fundamentalist, seems he is listening to the Omans in Iraq and doing their bidding or afraid to go against them. There is no honor here anymore.

I'd appreciate it if in the future you could start such nonsense with "Once upon a time..."

It would certainly save me some time.

[wbill]

I read somewhere that 87% of all statistics are made up on the spot. :-)

[A.A. Cunningham]

Mon Apr 19,12:26 PM ET
An Iraqi civilian kisses the hand of U.S. Marine Cpl. Joseph Sharp from Peoria, Ill., after Marines from the 1st Battalion 5th Marines gave him a supply of food and water in Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites), Monday, April 19, 2004. (AP Photo/John Moore)

[babaloo999]

Close, it's only 73%.

[Blzbba]

"During the Normandy landings, America lost 500 men a minute"


What Normandy is he referring to? D-Day, 6-6-44? Because we experienced about 5000 casualties for the entire day there.

At 500/minute, that'd be 30,000 American casualties in the first hour alone. A good article, but this number is waaayy too high.

He shoulda used Stalingrad, which had several MILLION casualties and was the real turning point battle of the WWII Eastern front.

[Blzbba]

"Perhaps Bush is no longer a religious fundamentalist"


One can hope.

[afraidfortherepublic]

It was almost 5 for my uncle. He graduated from boot camp (at 17) and his first assignment was to a destroyer stationed at Pearl Harbor. He arrived weeks before the bombing and survived. It was then that he became aware of the fine print in his Naval "contract" -- 4 years, except in time of war or National ememrgency...

[afraidfortherepublic]

BTW, I agree that the Civil War is important when discussing casualties. After all, the dead and wounded from both sides were Americans. America suffered more casualties in the Civil War than in any other War. I think that I read somewhere that the casualties in the Civil War exceeded the total casulties in ALL American fought wars. Or, perhaps that I was a statistic that I made up.

[monday]

"Gettysburg, Antietam and Normandy."

Whatever you might think of these battles, they were not quagmires. They were decisive battles with clear winners and losers. Comparing them to what is now essentially a police action in Iraq, with the stated objective of Nation building, seems silly.

This isn't Germany, Japan, or Vietnam. It is more like Kosovo. All we are trying to do is maintain security and force them to adopt a democratic govt that will be hospitable to American interests in the region. Whither this is an obtainable goal or not is debatable, but this is not Germany or Japan.

[Maria S]

"First, it's time someone reminded the American public that people like my father went to the service in '41 and never saw home or leave for something like 4 years."

Your daddy AND mine. My dad was so danged patriotic he probably would have taken on the whole Japanese army if he'd had the chance. Big difference today is the media; they are so liberal that we're going to hear hardly anything but pro-Kerry (or Hillary) from now until the election.

[wbill]

Close, it's only 73%.....

Yep, but only 27% of those are based on fact. :-)

My favorite one was at my college. "1 in 4 women on this campus are sexually assaulted every year." It was a four year school......you do the math.

[SMARTY]

I remember reading that more men died in the first 20 minutes at Antietam than ALL the Americans on the Normandy beach head.

[Henchman]

I wouldn't stoop to your level