JOHN KERRY VOTED FOR KENNEDY's ban on ALL CENTERFIRE AMMO (63-34 defeated) - Yeas and nays

Thomas ^ | 3-2-03 | Ted Kennedy

[Dan from Michigan]

TEXT OF AMMO BILL

YEAs ---34
Akaka (D-HI) Bayh (D-IN) Biden (D-DE)
Boxer (D-CA) Byrd (D-WV) Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE) Chafee (R-RI) Clinton (D-NY)
Corzine (D-NJ) Dayton (D-MN) Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL) Feingold (D-WI) Feinstein (D-CA)
Graham (D-FL) Harkin (D-IA) Hollings (D-SC)
Inouye (D-HI) Kennedy (D-MA) Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI) Lautenberg (D-NJ) Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT) Mikulski (D-MD) Murray (D-WA) Nelson (D-FL)
Reed (D-RI) Rockefeller (D-WV) Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY) Stabenow (D-MI) Wyden (D-OR)

NAYs ---63
Alexander (R-TN) Allard (R-CO) Allen (R-VA)
Baucus (D-MT) Bennett (R-UT) Bingaman (D-NM)
Bond (R-MO) Breaux (D-LA) Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY) Burns (R-MT) Campbell (R-CO)
Chambliss (R-GA) Cochran (R-MS) Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME) Conrad (D-ND) Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID) Crapo (R-ID) Daschle (D-SD)
DeWine (R-OH) Dole (R-NC) Dorgan (D-ND)
Ensign (R-NV) Enzi (R-WY) Fitzgerald (R-IL)
Frist (R-TN) Graham (R-SC) Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH) Hagel (R-NE) Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX) Inhofe (R-OK) Jeffords (I-VT)
Kyl (R-AZ) Landrieu (D-LA) Leahy (D-VT)
Lincoln (D-AR) Lott (R-MS) Lugar (R-IN)
McCain (R-AZ) McConnell (R-KY) Miller (D-GA)
Murkowski (R-AK) Nelson (D-NE) Nickles (R-OK)
Pryor (D-AR) Reid (D-NV) Roberts (R-KS)
Santorum (R-PA) Sessions (R-AL) Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR) Snowe (R-ME) Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK) Sununu (R-NH) Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY) Voinovich (R-OH) Warner (R-VA)

Not Voting - 3
Domenici (R-NM) Edwards (D-NC) Johnson (D-SD)

[Reactionary]

Kerry is just another gun-grabbing socialist puke.

Let's dress him up in a BATF uniform and have him set fire to the Constitution.

[jaz.357]

YEA-Clinton (D-NY)......

Because she likes RIM FIRE over centerfire?

[glock rocks]

Kerry took a break from campaigning on the most important campaign day of the year to fly in a rush to DC to vote:

a) For the AWB renewal;

b) For ending gun shows as we know them; and

c) For a ban on most/all centerfire rifle ammo.

no, J F'n K flew in to help shitcan tort reform on gun manufacturers.

[Standing Wolf]

Dukakis.

[TigersEye]

In fact, he was singling out virtually all ammo.

Well not all ammo. Just centerfire rifle ammo. Your shotgun and pistol ammo would be safe. ... From that bill anyway.

[Dog Gone]

I don't think handgun ammo was exempted from the amendment. Not from the link posted at the top of this thread, anyway.

[TigersEye]

no, J F'n K flew in to help shitcan tort reform on gun manufacturers.

I'm sure you are quite right about his true motivations (can anyone say 'trial lawyer campaign cash?') but it would still be true and fair to say 'Kerry voted for the Kennedy .30-30 Win. ban.'

[TigersEye]

I didn't read the Kennedy amendment. I just assumed that any so-called AP ammo would have to at least pierce body-armor. Most pistol ammo won't. Some pistols shoot high power rifle ammo.

[plain talk]

I'll ask the obvious question that so far no one has volunteered an explanation for. I understand its a ploy to grab guns etc But what I want to understand is the public rationale for which they were attempting to sell this ban of "centerfire" ammo.

[unspun]

Dear Mr. Kerry,
Say "goodbye" to the following Gore states:
Wisconsin, Minnesota, Missouri, Iowa.
Maybe Michigan and Main, too.
u

[unspun]

e

Oops, that goes at the end of "Main."

[ServesURight]

These senators Kohl and Feingold are disgusting. Gad, they are losers! Why do the people of Wisconsin keep electing these liberals? argh! Let's investigate Kohl's gayness.....

It's Milwaukee and Madison's fault!!!

[Wissa]

But what I want to understand is the public rationale for which they were attempting to sell this ban of "centerfire" ammo.

Basically, they're saying that the only possible use for ammunition like that is to kill cops with.

[TigersEye]

Just read it. Total gobbledy gook. It uses the phrase 'standard ammunition for the same caliber.' What's that? A lot of gun writers might use that phrase but most folks who read them know it's loosely used.

Does that mean solid lead, lead semi-wadcutter, full metal jacket, semi-jacketed lead solid, jacketed soft point, semi-jacketed soft point, semi-jacketed hollow point, lead hollow point, flat nosed jacketed solid, brass solid, brass jacketed steel with a lead core, ....? How about phosphorous coated tracer rounds, incendiary rounds and/or HE (high explosive) rounds? (No, I guess those wouldn't be standard but they are all legal and on the civilian market.)

Which of the first group is standard in any caliber or loading? Any one of them at all if put on a .30-30 cartridge with an appropriate powder charge for its weight would punch through body-armor with ease.

[dmanLA]

It's time to spread this information to every gun owner in America!

Do you think the Dems have a chance with the Nascar crowd now?

Let's define Kerry before he defines Bush. Carry on!

[Dog Gone]

That's what I didn't get. Certainly any magnum load is going to cause severe body damage to the recipient unless the body armor is very high-tech and far too expensive for police department budgets.

The link described every box of ammunition I've ever bought except for a plinker .22 rifle I gave my son a few years ago.

I guess it really doesn't matter. The amendment was soundly defeated, but trying to make sense of it wasn't easy.

[TigersEye]

But what I want to understand is the public rationale for which they were attempting to sell this ban of "centerfire" ammo.

The rationale is this: If it pierces body-armor it's a "cop-killer bullet."

``(d)(1) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this subsection, the Attorney General shall promulgate standards for the uniform testing of projectiles against Body Armor Exemplar.

``(2) The standards promulgated pursuant to paragraph (1) shall take into account, among other factors, variations in performance that are related to the length of the barrel of the handgun or centerfire rifle from which the projectile is fired and the amount and kind of powder used to propel the projectile.

Notice the second paragraph there. They wanted to look at barrel length. The longer the barrel the higher the velocity. Does that mean they would institute maximum barrel lengths? They already have minumums ala 'sawed-off' restrictions. No long barreled pistols?

Then there is the part about 'amount and kind of powder used.' So much for handloading. They could restrict all your favorite powders because one type was shown to be used in a particular loading favorable to body-armor piercing loads. (I can't believe I typed that last sentence it is so utterly ludicrous to contemplate but that is the only logical conclusion of studying 'powder types.')

But then there's the 'powder amounts' part. They couldn't control that by restricting powder types so ... submit each batch of handloads to a gov. inspector? Mmmmmm, I think not. No handloading, that's the only answer, along with strict industry guidelines; punked out loads only. If it can kill a large dog with one shot it's going to be over the top reg-wise.

[Buffalo Head]

"Maybe .22's would still be allowed under this........"

Yes, most 22 Magnum rounds will defeat Level IIA body armor.

[Myrddin]

no modern ammo except .22's

.17HMR is pretty "modern" ammo. It is rimfire. It has only been out for about 18 months.

[TigersEye]

I guess it really doesn't matter.

I think it does matter. Craig and Frist offered the Craig/Frist amendment which was the same thing only a little slower and subtler in its implementation. It matters becaused they tried and they will try again. We dodged a very nasty bullet today. The Pres. has to sign such a bill first and the House has a shot at it in conference committee and all but the gun-grabbers wanted this and their gunshow loophole crap and they will fight for it. The AP ammo ban has been flying under the radar because it might wake up the deer hunters. Also because its potential is much more sweeping than the AWB and that potential hasn't been widely recognized.