Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Peer-Attachment Disorder: A Real Or Imagined Problem?
Globe and Mail Online ^ | 31 January 2004 | ALANNA MITCHELL

Posted on 02/01/2004 8:23:31 AM PST by shrinkermd

What is it with so many children today? Sullen and surly, they ignore their elders and live to be with their peers. Two Vancouver specialists have a theory, but grownups won't like it, ALANNA MITCHELL reports. They believe the parental bond is being broken, with harrowing results

The two boys are wearing identical outfits -- baggy, chemically faded jeans, oversized winter coats and immaculate white runners, laces untied and tongues jutting up over the cuffs of their pants.

The two girls have a more revealing uniform: ultra-skinny jeans and puffy coats that skim the waist, one in brilliant white with a belt at the bottom and the other in tan.

They've claimed a sweet vantage point in the mall, right at the entrance to the Famous Players theatre. It's a game of "see and be seen," of scanning the packs of passers-by, checking out the swagger and identifying the various tribes here in the natural element of the mysterious, modern teen.

Few adults appear. When they do, they're in pairs, determined to make their movies on time. They glance almost furtively at the four teens monopolizing the corner of the entrance and at the throngs of other teens descending on the mall on a bustling Friday evening.

From a distance, the kids seem fresh and full of potential. They can't be anything like the ones who have spawned the parent-freaking headlines of the past few years: suicide, gangs, early sex, pregnancy, alienation, Littleton, Taber, Reena Virk and other random acts of violence from coast to coast.

Or can they? Let's try talking to them.

White coat bolts straight away, without making eye contact, and flees in horror to the embrace of the rest of her pack several metres away. Tan jacket stands her ground with the boys, a hostile look on her face. So what is it with teens today, they're asked.

Delivered by one of the boys, the brush-off is immediate and absolute. "We're kind of busy," he says, with a hard look on his face. Then he turns his back.

When Gordon Neufeld hears this story a few days later, he laughs. An experienced clinical psychologist in Vancouver, he recognizes the symptoms all too well. This is a sign of what he calls "peer-orientation" or "peer-attachment disorder," which he contends is a modern blight responsible for today's dangerous teen landscape and getting worse all the time.

According to Dr. Neufeld, teens who are peer-oriented dress alike and reject contact with adults. Their obsession with their friends and acquaintances supplants any real interest in adults to the point that they are emotionally detached even from their parents.

In fact, they despise grownups and often shun them. They have no stake in pleasing them any more because their emotional compass has switched from their parents to their friends. They're almost impossible to nurture or teach. And they certainly feel no obligation to explain themselves to an adult in a shopping mall.

"I'm convinced that peer-attachment disorder is the greatest disorder of our times," Dr. Neufeld says, adding that the problems of 90 to 95 per cent of the patients he sees are rooted in a skewed attachment.

In effect, he says, children are bringing up other children, and that's a recipe for dystopia straight out of Lord of the Flies. It's the death of parenthood.

This is the hypothesis that Dr. Neufeld and co-author Gabor Maté, a family physician and therapist in Vancouver, outline in their new book, Hold On To Your Kids: Why Parents Matter, published today in Canada and to appear next year in the United States.

Already the topic of controversy in the medical community, Hold On is a product of a billion-dollar industry devoted to counselling troubled parents striving to figure out what, if anything, is really wrong with their kids. One school of thought holds that it was ever thus -- causing parental angst is almost a childhood rite of passage.

But the thesis of these two specialists is anything but reassuring. They contend that the current generation of parents has pretty much lost its authority over children, either through negligence or indulgence, leaving them in an emotional void. To fill that void, kids bond with people their own age and wind up "peer-oriented."

This theory has its roots deep in the brain's biological survival instincts. Infants attach themselves to the grownups who take care of them and the grownups, in turn, attach to the children. As a result, babies will "make strange" with other adults. They want their parent and no one else.

But as the child grows older, reaching the age of 8 or 9, some parents withdraw their attachment, thinking they are acting for the best, and push children to be independent. Faced with an unbearable and unnatural attachment vacuum, the authors argue, such lost children will cling instead to whomever else is around. The brain, programmed to attach, goes for what's there, even if it's someone unsuitable.

This process has gained increasing momentum ever since the Second World War, as families have become more mobile and been allowed to break up more easily, and mothers have gone back to work and technology has advanced. Children have become attached to their peers and then been given little incentive to beak that bond. In effect, they've begun to make strange with their own parents.

As a result, parents lose the power to direct their children -- even if, as the Supreme Court of Canada ruled yesterday, they have a right to get physical with the younger ones. If kids don't care what their parents think, why do what they want?

What follows, according to Dr. Neufeld and Dr. Maté, is the death of curiosity, of maturation, of proper development with an aberrant society rising in its place.

Dr. Neufeld, who has pieced together this theory over 20 years of clinical practice and research, likens the situation to what could happen to a mother goose and her goslings. In the past, it didn't really matter if one or two of the youngsters wanted to follow other goslings because, as a group, they still traipsed behind the mother. But today, things are so topsy-turvy that she's now chasing the goslings, begging for a piece of the action.

At least she realizes that something has gone wrong. Today's parents, Dr. Neufeld says, grew up with a similar attraction to their peers, remain that way and so are often blind to what's going on. They think kids should be with other kids and work hard to make sure they are.

A couple approached him for help recently, upset that their 13-year-old son wanted to be with them all the time. "That's what it's come to," he says, sighing. "We see children who are adult-oriented as being aberrant."

Dr. Maté puts it another way: Even when the generations get together, they're not.

Think of the last party you went to -- it's unlikely that kids were invited. Even if they were, chances are they simply had a party of their own, gathering around the television set and ignoring any grownup bold enough to draw near.

Back at the Scarborough Town Centre, evening is becoming night. More adults have shown up, but they are still vastly outnumbered in the promenades, music stores and Old Navy by the tribes of teens.

The kids roam around in tightly defined groups of five or six, warily eyeing each other. They are concentrated most densely at the food court now, the girls sipping on diet pop, boys munching on fries. Almost every one of them brandishes a cellphone, evidence of the technological bubble in which they exist. Many keep checking the phones for coded text messages, some of which, to judge from the hilarity and waving, are from friends a few metres away.

Three girls sit primly at a round table, feasting on McDonald's food and so less likely to bolt if approached. They look identical, right down to the silhouette, the colours, the long hair, the heavy eye liner and thick makeup. One has just put down her cellphone to launch into a tirade about her boyfriend.

Perhaps they would like to offer their views on today's teens?

One responds with a withering look. "It's not a good time right now," she says dismissively. The girl just off the phone doesn't miss a beat, as though grownups are invisible. "That speech I just gave," she tells her friends, gesturing to her cell, "he didn't hear a word. He hung up on me."

To the authors of Hold On, that kids can behave this way illustrates abject failure for parenthood. But to U.S. researcher Judith Rich Harris, parenthood never had a chance -- it's been next to irrelevant all along.

Ms. Harris is the author of The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do, a 1998 book whose subtitle says it all: Parents Matter Less Than You Think and Peers Matter More.

She contends that adults have no lasting effects on the personality, intelligence or mental health of their children, apart from providing the raw genetic material. In other words, it's game over at birth. All the hugs, music lessons, bedtime reading, homework homilies and walks through the park make no real difference in the long run.

The very best thing parents can do? According to Ms. Harris, it's make sure that your kids look good, because their peers will notice and that's what really matters.

Published around the world, the book was a finalist for a Pulitzer Prize, and the 1995 research paper that first outlined her views won an award from the American Psychological Association. She has eminent defenders in the academic world (as well as many detractors) and her intention was to relieve parents of guilt. If the kids don't turn out, it's not your fault, she told them. It's either because of their genes or their friends.

But to Dr. Neufeld and Dr. Maté, this kind of advice is badly mistaken. Peers may well have lots of influence, but they shouldn't, they say. Instead, children's compass point must be their parents.

And parents, far from giving up, must do everything they can to hold on. They need to establish the hierarchy of the family and of the generations and "embed" children in it. They need to glory in their children's dependence on them, at least until the children are mature enough to go off on their own. Friends are fine. It's just that they can't be the be-all and end-all.

The duo recognize the irony in their theory. It's a U-turn from the prevailing attitudes on how to raise children. Advice from the reigning parental experts assumes children need to be pushed toward independence, urged to do for themselves, coaxed to derive their self-esteem from other kids. To help them do that, parents gobble up advice from self-help books, boning up on the latest tricks of the parenting trade.

A classic example, Dr. Maté notes, is the advice from experts to give a misbehaving child a so-called time out. He says parents do so faithfully for years, thinking it's the right thing even though it runs counter to a child's biological need to attach to the parent.

This and other means of thrusting children away, Dr. Neufeld says, are rampant but "developmentally illegitimate." Parents are running around trying to figure out what to do, when they should be re-examining who they are to their children.

Dr. Maté tells the story of what happened when his niece had a baby and took to holding the child on her belly. By the third day, the neonatal nurse had had enough, and told her to stop before she spoiled the baby.

"Try telling a monkey that," Dr. Maté says. "The fundamental thing is, we're trying to awaken people's parental intuition."

At least one expert on the childhood mind calls all this bunk.

Jean Wittenberg is head of infant psychiatry at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto and president of the Canadian Alliance for Children's Health Care. He also represents a middle ground of sorts, arguing passionately that parents matter, but dismissing the theory expressed in Hold On as far too simplistic and a misapplication of developmental attachment.

"It's like there is one secret or one answer to everything," he says. "Life is too complex to reduce it to one idea. There is no magic bullet."

A psychiatrist trained in attachment theory, Dr. Wittenberg describes it as just one of many key factors, along with such things as discipline, play and intimacy.

As well, he says, the Hold On theory fails to take into account the march of human development over a lifetime. A parent's job is to help a child move from the breast, to toddlerhood, to school, to summer camp, to university, to the job market, learning to cope with friends and acquaintances along the way.

"It is tremendously important for our children to be successful with their peers," Dr. Wittenberg insists. "It's very important for parents to help them. If a child is failing with his or her peers, it's misery."

In his view, a 13-year-old who seems distant from her parents is more apt to be going through a necessary struggle for independence rather than losing her attachment to her parents.

Neither does he see a dystopia looming. Roughly 20 per cent of Canadians have some psychiatric problem, and the other 80 per cent are fine, he says. Children are still growing up, remaining close to their families, having children of their own, caring for their relatives. Parents are still heavily involved with their children, as they should be. Even in the families of his young patients at the hospital, where the relationship is by definition not ideal, Dr. Wittenberg says he sees a great deal of love.

[For your information Dystopia is an imaginary place or state in which the condition of life is extremely bad, as from deprivation, oppression, or terror.]

So what are parents supposed to do in these troubled times? Be there for your children in appropriate measures throughout their lives. Acknowledge that being a parent can be difficult, and try to walk in your child's shoes with what he calls a "sophisticated empathy." Understand what the child is thinking, feeling, doing, before trying to make a diagnosis.

The mall is really getting busy now. Friday is, without question, the busiest night of the week for many teens.

A boy of 5 or 6 walks by, all bundled up. His mother tugs him along at a good clip and he follows obediently. Duelling experts aside, how do you get from him to the self-absorbed tribes all around?

Unlike so many of the younger kids, Melissa Pupo, 18, and Farzana Farook, 17, have a few thoughts to offer. Both are in Grade 12 and, since their companions have wandered off for a few minutes, they politely agree to an interview, a sign, in Dr. Neufeld's analysis, that they are properly parent-oriented.

Fiddling slightly with the metal in her pierced lower lip, Ms. Pupo says she sees signs of trouble already in the Grade 4 kids she helps to teach in her co-op program: They have "attitude." If they don't get what they want, they just get mad. "Kids don't care any more about anything except their friends."

They've got no respect, Ms. Farook adds, her eyes scanning the crowd non-stop. Their parents haven't disciplined them properly; they don't respect their elders.

Ms. Pupo says she has 15 friends who already have kids, although just three of the dads are still in the picture. She knows another eight girls under 18 who are pregnant.

Both young women say they care deeply what their parents think. They confide in them. This is the secret to good family life, they say.

"I talk to my mom about everything. I can tell her everything. She knows everything there is to know," Ms. Pupo says, affection in her eyes.

A few shops away, Lynsey Ross, 16, also has a few thoughts to share, although her two friends have categorically refused to talk and stalked off in their puffy jackets. But she wants to let grownups know what she's thinking, which is: Friends are just friends. Parents are forever.

She knows because her dad died when she was 13 and she went off the rails until last year. She and her mother fought like there was no tomorrow. Finally, her mom broke through, telling Ms. Ross that she was responsible for her own life. Everything changed after that.

Her advice to worried parents? Don't give in too easily. And don't let go. Never let go.

A

lanna Mitchell is a senior feature writer at The Globe and Mail.

Signs of trouble

Timing: The switch in allegiance from parents to peers can begin as early as 5, according Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté, authors of Hold On To Your Kids: Why Parents Matter. The problem often comes to a head at 12 or 13.

Behaviour: Some signs are subtle, and others brutally obvious. When with other kids, peer-oriented children can seem animated, talkative, even demonstrative but, when a grownup approaches, refuse "even the most elementary rituals of attachment, such as eye contact, greetings and introductions."

They feel they must meld with their peers, which includes looking exactly like them.

If such children come to visit, they will appear uncomfortable, answer in mumbling monosyllables, and try to herd your children away from you. On the phone, they will refuse to identify themselves or to greet you by name.

Rejection: Disengaged children spurn any notion that they resemble their parents. They will go out of their way to take an opposing point of view and embrace different preferences, opinions and judgments. "If these children could, they would walk on the opposite side of the street in a contrary direction," the authors write.

Results: Such children make a parent's life difficult. They are hard to teach, aggressive and disobedient. Not caring what grownups think, they are immune to most forms of punishment.

Parents can find themselves feeling acutely rejected, if not crushed, neglected and even outright angry at being emotionally rebuffed.

What parents can do

Be aware: The most important thing is to understand the theory of attachment and recognize when it has gone wrong, Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté say. Most often, it's not that a child is behaving badly, but that the relationship with the parent has been ruptured and replaced with a dependence on peers.

Be wary: For example, the authors don't suggest abandoning daycare although they contend the "seeds of peer-orientation" are sown there. Instead, parents with kids in daycare may want to take extra care to nurture their attachment with them.

Control access: One specific suggestion, Dr. Neufeld says, is to keep your children's peers "out of their face." For example, don't automatically turn to peers as a cure for boredom. Don't encourage a child to gain self-esteem from them. Try to make sure that he or she is exposed to adults and learns to interact with them at social gatherings, rather than being with other kids all the time.

Be bold: If the attachment is lost, don't give up. It can be revived. "In may ways, peer orientation is like a cult, and the challenges of reclaiming children are much the same as if we were facing the seductions of a cult," the authors write. "The real challenge is to win back their hearts and their minds, not just have their bodies under our roof and at our table."

Be assertive: Once you realize what has happened, you can train yourself to put your attachment with your child first and to reinforce it every day. Then it's a question of relying on your natural parenting instincts. "What we're really saying is that you don't need us, you don't need experts. You'll know what to do. Nature will tell you," Dr. Maté says.

Radical surgery: In extreme cases, one suggestion is to separate the child from the peers so that he or she, faced with an intolerable void, reattaches to the parent. But be cautious. "It is important not to reveal one's agenda, as this can easily backfire."

Meet the authors: Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté are scheduled to appear Feb. 9 at Alumni Hall as part of the University of Toronto Reading Series. Four days later, Dr. Maté will be in Peterborough, Ont., for an appearance at Showplace Peterborough.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Unclassified
KEYWORDS: attachment; disorder; disorders; peer; peers; psychology; teens
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-136 next last
FYI. This is Peer Attachment Disorder is all the rage in some family therapy circles. I remain skeptical and see Dr. Wittenberg as offering a common sense assessment of the possible problem.
1 posted on 02/01/2004 8:23:33 AM PST by shrinkermd
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: shrinkermd
I don't suppose that handing them over to Soviet-inspired public schools at the age of 5 (or even younger) has ANYTHING to do with this obsessive attachment to their age-group. No, of course not.
2 posted on 02/01/2004 8:30:14 AM PST by wizardoz ("Crikey! I've lost my mojo!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: shrinkermd
Two Vancouver specialists have a theory, but grownups won't like it .... They believe the parental bond is being broken, with harrowing results ....

What a crock. Children have always identified with their peers rather than their parents.
In every generation there is a 'costume de jour' that they all wear or aspire to wear.
And they are always surly.

The one difference today is that kids can more often afford to buy the 'costume de jour'.

This is all the result of taking seriously 'social scientists' who have no knowledge of the past and damned little connection to their own childhood.

So9

3 posted on 02/01/2004 8:43:16 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Goldwater Republican)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: shrinkermd
Not surprising to see that there's peer attachment, when so many families buy into society's push for family detachment.

Must have junior in pre-school by age three, it's good for him and he must get a running start to be successful.

Little girls at age six and seven are allowed to wear make up and midriff baring shirts, their parents wanting to make sure they have the latest in clothing, insuring their popularity.

Then the children are sent (or dumped) off to every activity under the sun, so mom and dad can brag about it.

Parents are not encouraging their children to be children.
4 posted on 02/01/2004 8:51:14 AM PST by Lijahsbubbe (The brighter you are, the more you have to learn)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All
Nothing new here. I believe Anthony Burgess had something to say about this in 1970.
5 posted on 02/01/2004 9:02:33 AM PST by Deb8
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: wizardoz
There is a cry in CA for children to go to pre-pre school because 'studies' show that it makes them better students and happier adults.

I though kindergarden was a pre school to get you ready for school. Now they have pre-school to get you ready for kindergarden and now they want pre-pre-school to get you ready for pre-school.

And the stupid parents don't see a correlation with the schools getting money for every child there every day and just blindly assume that they schools are doing what is best for the kids, not just whoring them out to get a few more thousand bucks a week.

It's all the parents fault though. In CA the schools are so liberal and ludicrious that the for years kids have been graduating without learning how to read and everyone just goes tiptoing around the huge teachers union in fear, instead of firing them and hiring people that are actually useful.

Everywhere I look in life now I see areas which the government has screwed things up unbelievably, and we, leming-like still continue to fund them, elect them and let them vote us more bread and circuses.

Private schools are fabulous, and instead of patterning themselves after working models, the schools here are trying to drive them out of business.
6 posted on 02/01/2004 9:02:45 AM PST by LaraCroft (If the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, do the stupid get stupider?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9
My parents had a very good 'cure' for the 'I wanna dress like everyone else does' thing. They told me no. I didnt get the fad clothes, nor the expensive ones. I did get to pick what I got, but all within financial (and my parents idea of visual) reason. Was amazing how that worked. Am doing the same with my kids.
7 posted on 02/01/2004 9:05:37 AM PST by EuroFrog (Moving back to the USA in 12 days!!! (But who is counting?))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: shrinkermd
Dr. Spock and the anti-establishment liberal movement of the 60's have sown the seeds for what I also observe to be a grave problem. Parents are afraid to be a firm authority for children. Yet, children crave the structure and discipline that comes from strong parenting, which will also teach them proper social norms.

If children don't receive structure and discipline, they begin to resent their parents and allow their peer groups to determine the social norms for them to live by. Children with weak parents tend to drift and have no firm vision for themselves as members of a community. I see this happening often.

I grew up in a liberal, affluent environment in Los Angeles. My peers' parents were somewhat religiously observant, however, as a result of their hands-off parenting, the importance of religious observance was not taught to be an important part of life. They went to good schools, some have good professions, but their lives are adrift. Many do not marry, or, they may marry outside of the faith. Divorce is more frequent among this population. Their children, if they have them, are taught even less about their religion and the values that accompany religious practice. I'm sure this pattern is repeated among other faiths as well.

I don't see this pattern among more religious peers, however. Additionally, my religious peers are also more politically conservative.
8 posted on 02/01/2004 9:09:07 AM PST by LA Conservative (evil triumphs when good men do nothing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: shrinkermd
If my child is sitting minding his own business at the mall, or anywhere, and some adult comes up and starts asking personal questions, I hope he'll have enough sense to refuse to refuse to answer them, too. This reminds me of the articles diagnosing conservatives as mentally ill.

It's called NOT TALKING TO STRANGERS and it's a darn good idea in this day and age.

This article reminds me of the to-do over Elvis. Blah blah blah blah kids got no respect blah blah blah. Find the fringe, generalize about the fringe's behavior, and run in circles panicking about it...ignoring the moderate center that rarely behaves that way and doesn't take it particularly seriously when it does. Sometimes loose pants are just an experiment to be discarded when it turns out not to work too well, a passing phase that will go away sooner if it is ignored as much as possible.

Yes, there's a lot to be concerned about with respect to extreme teen behavior, but most teens are in perfect control of what acting out they choose to do, and if their parents aren't as involved as they ought to be, still, they'll be fine once they're in the real world. My parents weren't on top of me every single minute monitoring my emotional state. Smothering isn't mothering.

As homeschooling expands (real homeschooling, the kind with a curriculum and time spent on studies, not merely keeping kids home from publik skool) we'll find a healthy broadening in the teen behavior curve, especially since those who are properly homeschooled will be more successful in life than those who aren't.
9 posted on 02/01/2004 9:22:58 AM PST by Triple Word Score
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9
Do you have kids?
10 posted on 02/01/2004 9:29:11 AM PST by netmilsmom (God sent Angels- Why would I trust them to anyone else?-homeschooling 1/5/04)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Deb8
Ah, yes. Parents were enjoying themselves at the local milkbar while the little droogies were out for either a malenky tolchock or a bit of the old in-out.
11 posted on 02/01/2004 9:29:24 AM PST by jobim
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

I am an adult, and I avoid surveyers and reporters at the mall!
When I was a teenager, I avoided adults.
LOL!
12 posted on 02/01/2004 9:37:19 AM PST by sarasmom (No war for oil- Give France/Russia/China etc oil ,and no war-or so Saddam thought.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: netmilsmom
Do you have kids?

Yes, one, now grown.

So9

13 posted on 02/01/2004 9:40:20 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Goldwater Republican)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: shrinkermd
"They contend that the current generation of parents has pretty much lost its authority over children, either through negligence or indulgence, leaving them in an emotional void. To fill that void, kids bond with people their own age and wind up "peer-oriented."

With most children being institutionalized in daycares, what did these parents expect? This is a natural outgrowth of the "It Takes a Village" crowd who bought into the "quality time" nonsense. The kids aren't dumb, they knew they were being largely ignored by their parents except for when it was "convenient" for mommy and daddy to pay attention to them.

Mommy and daddy owe these kids a huge apology. Society will have to pick up the costs of their psychotherapy to try to repair the damage done by the do-gooding liberals who came up with the nonsense that caused this problem.

Nuclear families in the old days were more important than just ensuring survival of the species - they also ensure that the species has well-established roots and a strong support system that leads to good emotional/mental health.
14 posted on 02/01/2004 9:46:04 AM PST by DustyMoment (Repeal CFR NOW!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: shrinkermd
Previously posted
15 posted on 02/01/2004 9:49:51 AM PST by garbanzo (Free people will set the course of history)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: EuroFrog
My parents had a very good 'cure' for the 'I wanna dress like everyone else does' thing. They told me no.

First, let me say, "Welcome Home!" (Early, yes -- but I wanted to be ahead of the pack).

Like you, I tried the "But everybody's got one" line -- it didn't work for me, either.

My son is homeschooled, and doesn't know he isn't hip. He cringes when he sees pierced eyebrows, and runs when I threaten to bleach out his hair and dye it purple.

Is he sullen? Occasionally. Is he rebellious? Yep. Does he hate his parents? Nope -- he knows which side his bread is buttered on.

All kids are obnoxious at some point in their development. The trick is to not play into it. When they sulk, eat ice cream in front of them. When they rebel, ask them if they'd like to get a job and pay rent. But for gosh sakes, Don't validate the snit by thinking the kid requires a therapist. That just proves to the kid that his angst over not having Vice City is justified.

16 posted on 02/01/2004 9:52:41 AM PST by reformed_democrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: shrinkermd
My kids were never in daycare or preschool--I was always a stay-at-home mom until quite recently. My daughter and I were very close and had a wonderful relationship until two days after she started high school. Then my angel-child went away and this slit-eyed, sullen, social-life-obsessed kid replaced her. She still gets dragged to church every Sunday but seems to have rejected its values. The only thing that keeps her from completely being wild is that, as I remind her frequently, I have the car keys, I have the checkbook, and she's not going to see another horse 'til she's eighteen unless she's civil. It's sad. She has no interest in her family at all anymore and I think the only reason she sticks around is that she knows she couldn't earn enough money to live on.

I never went through any sullen/ugly/rebellion phase with my mother and we had a great relationship until the day she died.

17 posted on 02/01/2004 9:58:41 AM PST by Capriole (Foi vainquera)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: shrinkermd
In all the examples in this article of kids with "inappropriate attachment" all I saw was kids with rotten manners. The one girl said it:

They've got no respect, Ms. Farook adds, her eyes scanning the crowd non-stop. Their parents haven't disciplined them properly; they don't respect their elders.

Parents are supposed to teach manners and respect. But those things went out of fashion in the sixties and today's children are now crippled by the lack of the ability to handle themselves like decent people in public.

What really bothers me is that NONE of the disagreeing shrinks in the article even considered that simple and obvious explanation.

18 posted on 02/01/2004 10:11:51 AM PST by irv
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Capriole
Dear, if high school is harming your child, your family, and the peace of your home, and it's that obvious to you, why not seek an alternative?

It reminds me of that joke, "Doctor, it hurts when I do this." "Well, stop doing that."

"But everybody does that" isn't reason enough to keep doing something that hurts!

Your child doesn't sound HAPPY and you sure aren't. You won't be depriving her of anything that is helping her if you pull her out of school and homeschool or move her to a private school. In the long run things'll probably work out fine anyway, and this'll probably pass either way, but why keep doing something that is making you both miserable?

The university I attend offers correspondence courses for high school; the one nearest you may also. If not, there are many, many other options. Her biggest job right now is to find out who she is and what she wants to do with her life, and the way you are describing her high school experience, it doesn't sound like it's contributing a thing to that end.

If it's money that is the issue, I have to say that I've always found that the only way to finance anything is to jump in and start doing it, and the money seems to work out. That was true of having children and it was true of going back to college in my late 30s.

My youngest brother-in-law went through a cocaine-addicted phase. My mother-in-law sold her house and moved him out to the boonies. In the middle of the desert without his friends, he was desperately unhappy for awhile, but he kicked his addiction and then found other things to do and recovered from not just cocaine but also the evil influences that had led him to that stuff. I'd take my children to the arctic wilderness before I'd see them corrupted by an AVOIDABLE social condition.
19 posted on 02/01/2004 10:13:31 AM PST by Triple Word Score
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Capriole
I have heard that from 16 to 18 that is how girls are. My niece was the same way. She is now 21, getting married and just a peach!

This too shall pass....
20 posted on 02/01/2004 10:16:11 AM PST by netmilsmom (God sent Angels- Why would I trust them to anyone else?-homeschooling 1/5/04)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Triple Word Score
It's called NOT TALKING TO STRANGERS and it's a darn good idea in this day and age.

My parents (better parents than most of the ones today) taught me to say, "I'm sorry sir, but I'm not allowed to talk to strangers." Simply ignoring someone who was trying to talk to me was absolutely out. Rudeness is never "a darn good idea."

The kids in this article weren't showing good healthy caution. They were just self-absorbed brats.

21 posted on 02/01/2004 10:20:16 AM PST by irv
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: irv
I see more rude adults than rude children in my metro area. There's a distribution curve on this matter in every population. You can say that the mean has shifted for the worse, but that trend did not start with youth.

Robert Heinlein said that the condition people leave public washrooms after they've used them is a good barometer for this matter. I can't see that kids are less courteous on this subject or any other than their elders are.

All of us are having to be far more cautious with strangers than ever before, and aggressive strangers who demand a response to personal questions are entitled to nothing more than silence--anything else usually encourages repeated attempts to make unwanted connections.
22 posted on 02/01/2004 10:28:04 AM PST by Triple Word Score
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: shrinkermd
The problem is not that kids are attached to other kids. Kids attach to something - that is inherent in human nature. In the past the answer to what that something was, was moot - it was their parents, of course.

The problem we have today is not with the kids, and it is not "peer-attachment" disorder or whatever bunch of psychobabble they'll come up with next week. It is parent-detachment disorder.

Let's face it, whatever the subjective benefits gained by having two parents work, or by divorce and single-parent families, the price is paid by the children who have a historically low amount of connection to their own parents.

It's long past time that this society and others stopped blaming innocent kids for the results of their parents' immoral and selfish behavior.

23 posted on 02/01/2004 10:28:23 AM PST by thoughtomator ("I will do whatever the Americans want because I saw what happened in Iraq, and I was afraid"-Qadafi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: thoughtomator
It's our tax policies caused by feminist lies about the worth of women who stay home that have caused this. I do not know a single mother who works a full-time job who does so because of selfishness. They're out there, but I don't think they're the majority. Most of the first income goes to various taxes, and most of the second income goes to necessities.

The selfish, immoral moms I know are drug addicted, single by choice, and do not work but take the public dole. They're the ones whose kids are out begging food from the neighbors.
24 posted on 02/01/2004 10:34:53 AM PST by Triple Word Score
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Triple Word Score
I know of whole communities full of single mothers who are single mothers because they were convinced by feminism that they were too good for their husbands, and that they should go out on their own, regardless of any effect this would have on their kids. The selfishness comes from the ease and capriciousness with which a lot of women have discarded their husbands as useless, only to have their kids suffer the most for lack of not just a father, but of both parents.
25 posted on 02/01/2004 10:38:06 AM PST by thoughtomator ("I will do whatever the Americans want because I saw what happened in Iraq, and I was afraid"-Qadafi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: thoughtomator
Hmm.

A lot of husbands **are** kind of useless. If a man refuses to support his family and requires his wife to work, and still requires her to do most or all of the housework, and yells at her for not doing everything perfectly, there will come a time when she realizes that she AND the kids would be better off without the loser. If she can do a better job alone than she can do as part of a team, because she's trying to pull all the weight, she's smart to leave him.

This isn't a scientific opinion...I just know a lot of women in this situation right now.

I see a lot of lazy guys out there not pulling their weight, and usually doing internet porn instead of spending time with their families and wives in the evenings. The extended families are urging divorce, not urging women to stay with their loser husbands.

If you want to put all the blame generally on women, fine, that's up to you. I've seen women pregnant with twins waiting tables while their husbands are "looking for work." (IE playing computer games all day.) After awhile it becomes clear that many men are better at donating sperm than at supporting their mates and offspring.
27 posted on 02/01/2004 11:03:10 AM PST by Triple Word Score
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Triple Word Score
I love the assumption that if a woman divorces a man, the man is lazy or an abuser. What if the man involved isn't a lazy bum, but is working 2-3 jobs himself while the wife spends her time shopping and chatting with her friends? Why does this scenario, which occured in a majority of the families where I grew up, seem so improbable to you that you automatically must put the blame on the husbands?
29 posted on 02/01/2004 11:07:57 AM PST by thoughtomator ("I will do whatever the Americans want because I saw what happened in Iraq, and I was afraid"-Qadafi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Rhys Ifans; Servant of the 9
We do have influences on developing brains that never existed before in human history. I was shocked to find out that some 5th and 6th graders in my children's private school are listening to Eminem. Parents who pay for a religious education but permit that in their homes are schizoid, I think.

I still think that by and large most kids will be fine, and the fringe we are worrying about is not much worse than it's ever been.

I think that children are less creative and less resourceful than they've ever been--but that's a side effect of greater adult supervision than used to be the norm, not less. Children today do not have the freedom to roam the neighborhood that we had growing up. What was normal for us would be negligence today.
30 posted on 02/01/2004 11:10:06 AM PST by Triple Word Score
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: thoughtomator
I am basing my belief on what I actually see. The women I know who are considering or have had a divorce did so because their husbands were abusive bums. I do not believe this to be a statistical universe and do not draw broad conclusions of any kind from it, so please don't assume I am doing so. I know men who got divorced from abusive women, too.

There are stinking no good lazy worthless bums out there of both sexes, obviously.
31 posted on 02/01/2004 11:12:08 AM PST by Triple Word Score
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: Rhys Ifans
"What parents can do"

Home school your kids. Then the parents are the peers.

Unless you are capable of home schooling a quality college education and getting it accredited, you are just postponing the inevitable.

Most kids go through this phase.
The good ones outgrow it, the losers don't.

Think of it as Evolution in Action

So9

34 posted on 02/01/2004 11:22:39 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Goldwater Republican)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Rhys Ifans
"Hanging out" at the mall isn't a crime, is it?

It's a waste of time that could be better spent elsewhere, but by and large all of us have done it, and we don't intend to go there to answer questions of strangers. I see senior citizens "hanging out" at the mall as much as I see teenagers doing it. I only go when I have no other options, personally, but when I do go to the mall I expect not to be harassed by anybody.

You and I may be understanding the behavior of this researcher in two different ways. I don't like being disturbed by invasive strangers while I'm about my own private business and I don't see why a teenager should welcome it. Perhaps you do think that other people have a right to interrupt you and make demands of you--in which case you wouldn't be on the national do-not-call list, nor mind calls at the dinner hour.

To me it's the same thing--to you, obviously, it is not, and you think teenagers owe some kind of special attention to random adults who intrude upon them.
35 posted on 02/01/2004 11:27:26 AM PST by Triple Word Score
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: Triple Word Score
There is a phenomenon that grew out of the '60s mentality, primarily feminism, but also the sexual revolution, where women were encouraged to divorce good husbands in order to chase an ideal of independent self-realization. This was an extremely widespread phenomenon, and I do not believe I am exaggerating when I say that it precipitated the majority of divorce cases among the baby boomer generation. From firsthand observation and experience I am certain that it was the predominant theme in the suburbs of New York, at least, and I have not found it to be unusual among others elsewhere.

The downside of the chase for self-realization were all the kids who first lost their fathers, and then were abandoned by self-consumed mothers... the 'latchkey' kids, the first generation of Americans that grew up with virtually no parental guidance. In the vacuum created by this phenomenon grew the government-as-parent, with sex ed and the war on drugs being the points of the spear, though this has since grown to include a complete political indoctrination into multiculturalism (where it's okay for the above divorce phenomenon, and there's no blame for the harm to kids to be assigned, because it was just another lifestyle alternative.)

This was the leading edge of the destruction of the American family, long before homosexuality was considered acceptable.
37 posted on 02/01/2004 11:40:44 AM PST by thoughtomator ("I will do whatever the Americans want because I saw what happened in Iraq, and I was afraid"-Qadafi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the 9
If grown, how old? Things are far different today then even ten years ago. You are unware, it would seem, with how different. V's wife.
38 posted on 02/01/2004 11:41:24 AM PST by ventana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: Capriole
The only thing that keeps her from completely being wild is that, as I remind her frequently, I have the car keys, I have the checkbook, and she's not going to see another horse 'til she's eighteen unless she's civil. It's sad. She has no interest in her family at all anymore and I think the only reason she sticks around is that she knows she couldn't earn enough money to live on.

You just described my high school freshman daughter. I believe she has been taken by aliens, and in a few years they will bring her back. In the meantime, I have this arrogrant, disobedient creature in my house that I must feed and clothe and try to nurture and love, even though she's rather eat worms than hear us say we love her and systematically rejects everything we hold dear.

41 posted on 02/01/2004 11:50:30 AM PST by SandyInSeattle (DEDICATED Homeland Security Employee)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: ventana
If grown, how old? Things are far different today then even ten years ago. You are unware, it would seem, with how different. V's wife.

He is 24.
He never had time to rebel at home, or then in the Navy, so when he got out 2 years ago, he turned all weird and surly for most of a year and then outgrew it.

I have great-nieces and great-nephews, I know what is going on today.
I think you must have had a very protected childhood to not have seen the same things when young. It always seem worse when our kids are foing it to us, paybacks are hell.
I can remember family friends and relatives as teens from the early 50s to today and I don't see much difference.

If you look at the Greek philosophers, you will find them making exactly the same complaints against their younger generation 2,500 years ago. It's always the same.

So9

45 posted on 02/01/2004 11:56:45 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Goldwater Republican)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Rhys Ifans
It gets a lot more complicated once there are children in the marriage. Who do the kids get to blame for the absence of guidance on how to be a human being? And even if they do affix blame to one party or both, how does that mitigate the injuries they suffer because of it?

If there are no kids, then it ain't anybody else's business. But quite often there are, and the kids have a valid interest as well, one that is betrayed most cruelly by the phenomenon described above.
46 posted on 02/01/2004 11:58:44 AM PST by thoughtomator ("I will do whatever the Americans want because I saw what happened in Iraq, and I was afraid"-Qadafi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Rhys Ifans; thoughtomator
Can't argue with that. Most of the bad marriages I know were predicted by everybody beforehand, except for the soon-to-be-unhappy couple. I don't know if it was ever better--maybe miserable couples just stayed together longer when the divorce rate was lower. Was that better for kids? I don't think so.

Latchkey kids aren't a recent invention either. Coining a new term doesn't make it a new thing. The role of parents and children in society has never been a stagnant Ozzy and Harriet prospect. Many of our grandparents spent their childhood laboring in factories.

Maybe there's just no way to make people be happy. You make it for yourself, or fail to make it. No government can do it for you. Maybe God can't even do it for you.
47 posted on 02/01/2004 12:03:40 PM PST by Triple Word Score
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Triple Word Score
I appreciate your wise advice and the kindness with which you offered it. Certainly there is nothing you say with which I disagree. Trust me when I tell you that I have sought all the alternatives you suggest.
48 posted on 02/01/2004 12:13:42 PM PST by Capriole (Foi vainquera)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-136 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson