USS 'Liberty' hit was unintentional, says CIA

JPost ^ | 01-13-04 | JANINE ZACHARIA

[veronica]

New documents released by the State Department relating to the period of the 1967 Six Day War include CIA memos that say Israel did not know it was striking an American vessel when it attacked the USS Liberty off the coast of the Gaza Strip on June 8, 1967, killing 34 American sailors and injuring 172. The memos say the attack was carried out "by mistake, representing gross negligence."

Along with the release of the documents, the historian for the top-secret National Security Agency said Monday he believed available evidence "strongly suggested" Israel did not know it was bombarding an American ship.

On Monday, the State Department hosted a conference on the 1967 war, including the Liberty incident, to mark the release of a new volume of historical papers from the Johnson Administration. The 542 declassified documents, roughly 1100 pages in length, were culled from the archives of the White House, State Department, Pentagon and various intelligence agencies. They cover May through November 1967.

Historians said the new documentation included little new on the Liberty incident itself. It is still not known, for example, why the USS Liberty, an intelligence-gathering ship, was allowed to linger so close to the war zone, or why Israel was not informed of its presence in the area. Analysts said however that while its original mission remains murky, it was now evident that the ship was not sent to spy on Israel since the bulk of linguists on board spoke Arabic or Russian and the ship had no Hebrew translators to monitor Israeli communications in real time.

The most significant documents, transcripts of tapes of communications between an Israeli air controller and helicopter pilots sent to rescue the wounded from the attack, were released last July.

Those intercepts showed that the Israeli rescue pilots first identified the ship as Egyptian and gradually realized, after spotting a US flag, that the ship was American.

"A CIA memo of June 13 reported they had no intercepts from the attacking planes and torpedo boats, but that the helicopter pilots' communication left little doubt that the Israelis had failed to identify the Liberty as a US ship," said Harriet Schwar, editor of the newly released volume.

"A follow-up CIA memo on June 21st noted that the Liberty had been identified prior to the attacks but concluded that the Israelis were not aware at the time of the attack that they were attacking a US ship. It concluded that the attack was not made in malice, but was by mistake, representing gross negligence. The Defense Intelligence Agency reached a similar conclusion," Schwar added.

David Hatch, the National Security Agency Historian, said of the intercepted communications of the rescue pilots: "While falling short of proof, the intercepts to me suggest strongly the Israeli attackers did not know they were aiming deadly fire at a vessel belonging to the United States. The intercepted communications between the air controller at Hatzor and helicopters dispatched in the wake of the attack show a progressive reversal of perception on their part."

Included on the panel was James Bamford, an investigative journalist, who has written that Israel deliberately attacked the USS Liberty spy ship. Jay Cristol, a Miami-based judge who has written a book arguing that the attack was a mistake was also present, as was Michel Oren, author of a book on the Six Day War.

Bamford stood by his assertion that Israel had deliberately attacked the ship and that the US and Israel had orchestrated a "big cover up."

He read from a recent declaration by Ward Boston, who served as senior legal counsel for the Navy's Court of Inquiry into the Liberty attack. That Court concluded there was insufficient information to make a judgment about why Israel attacked the ship.

In his affidavit, Boston says, he and the Court were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy's investigation, and that both he and the Court's president, Admiral Isaac Kidd, "believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew."

"I am outraged at the efforts of the apologists for Israel in this country to claim that this attack was a case of mistaken identity. In particular the recent publication of Jay Cristol's book, "The Liberty Incident," twists the facts and misrepresents the views of those of us who investigated the attack," Boston says.

Cristol's presentation for the Liberty panel was prepared in conjunction with Ernest Castle, the United States Naval Attache' at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in June 1967, who received the first report of the attack from Israel and advised the US, and John Hadden who was then the CIA Chief of Station in Tel Aviv. Both Castle and Hadden agree that the attack on the Liberty was a mistake.

Michael Oren, in his presentation, reviewed some of the mistakes Israel had made during the Liberty attack.

Earlier in the morning of June 8, the Israelis had surveyed and identified a ship in the area as the USS Liberty. A neutral green marker was placed on a model to represent the Liberty's position. Two hours later, the marker was removed since the ship's position would have changed by then and a new senior Israeli official came on duty who was not informed of the Liberty's presence in the area, Oren explained.

The removal of the marker, a miscalculation of the speed at which the Liberty was traveling that would have indicated it was not a warship, and a breakdown in communication between the Israeli Navy and Army were all Israeli errors that contributed to orders to attack the ship.

The former Naval attach , Castle, said after the panel that he knew personally the Israeli official who had removed the marker and that it had "ruined him" professionally and personally. The Israelis had no motive to attack the ship, he added.

The panel, which was open to the public, became raucous at times when survivors of the Liberty attack and a relative of a sailor killed in the incident yelled out to protest that the panel included two people who represented Israel's position, while survivors were not invited to participate.

One petty officer from the Liberty attempted to question Oren's credentials, saying someone who would have been "in diapers" at the time of the attack could not effectively analyze the incident. Others slammed Oren for being Israeli and suggested he could therefore not be impartial.

[NYFriend]

Wasn't the Liberty still flying the Flag when the Isreali's supposedly machine-gunned the liferafts?

[DainBramage]

Bull

[veronica]

This makes the 12th or 13th investigation/hearing that comes to the same conclusion. Will the usual suspects let it go? Nah.

[B4Ranch]

BULLSH!T!

[veronica]

Brilliant argument and deconstruction of the article/State Dept. forum! ;)

[B4Ranch]

Yes, the Kiberty was flying the American flag and the fighter pilot said so on the radio.

The panel, which was open to the public, became raucous at times when survivors of the Liberty attack and a relative of a sailor killed in the incident yelled out to protest that the panel included two people who represented Israel's position, while survivors were not invited to participate.

Don't allow survivors to participate and you can get any report you want.

Scan the whole page for good reading!
Conservative Debate Handbook

[B4Ranch]

Look at #7

Have you read on this subject? I have done quite a bit.

[davisfh]

"USS 'Liberty' hit was unintentional, says CIA"

I don't remember all of the particulars of this attack but, as I recall, it went on for an hour or so. The length of the attack alone makes it difficult to swallow these excuses.

I would like to believe that the Israelis are our friends and always have been but I find the Liberty incident very disturbing. I've never heard a rational and believable explanation of this occurrence.

[Citizen Tom Paine]

We are talking about the Israeli Air Force not some rag tag third rate power. This is an airforce that could strike and kill aircraft and tanks protected by earthwork fortifications (with one bomb). If it was any US ship that I ever sailed on they were flying the flag from the mast. One qualification for a pilot is exceptional eyesight.

We also know from now declassified traffic that the US Sixth Fleet launched aircraft to support the USS Liberty which were CALLED BACK. Presumably the recall order came from the DC area not the area commander. Once again the message traffic would be useful.

We neet to see the actual message traffic to know. There is a good chance that the NSA may have copies, but try to pry it out of them.

[B4Ranch]

"For example, the Liberty was first reported — incorrectly, as it turned out — to be cruising at 30 knots (it was later recalculated to be 28 knots). Under Israeli (and U.S.) naval doctrine at the time, a ship proceeding at that speed was presumed to be a warship. The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault.

Flags don't droop at 30 knots!

[B4Ranch]

28 knots equals 32.2mph.

Fix your hair real nice, walk for a hour in a 32 mph wind and see if it still looks nice and undisturbed. Honey, you'll look like you just came out of the dryer.

My previous post with the link came from the JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY not an entertainment newspaper.

[veronica]

I wonder how many investigations, forums etc., it will take for certain folks to accept the facts. 20? 30? 40?

Now the current State Dept. and CIA agree with the other investigations, and yet, the usual suspects are still going on. Not exactly a surprise.

[B4Ranch]

This article is from someone who's starting to get worried about what his reception will be at the gates to Heaven.

[Ancesthntr]

We are talking about the Israeli Air Force not some rag tag third rate power. This is an airforce that could strike and kill aircraft and tanks protected by earthwork fortifications (with one bomb).

They may be good and, given the threat they face and the training they undergo, they may even be the best...but they aren't perfect. Anyone can make a mistake, especially in the fog of war. There have now been many reports by our own government that have concluded that this was a mistake - will anything convince you?

One qualification for a pilot is exceptional eyesight.

True enough. However, omnipotence is not on the qualification list. Remember, we are dealing with human beings. These particular human beings had been fighting a war for several days, after several weeks of extremely high tensions, a war for the very survival of their nation. Don't you think it possible that they might have been tired? Ask our pilots from the latest conflict if they were tired after a few days of multiple sorties, in between which they were debriefed about the old mission and had to prepare for the new one - and being under incredible stress the entire time. The Israelis in '67 had it even worse - remember, this was a war after several weeks of extremely high tensions, during which time the Israeli AF had no choice but to keep large numbers of fighters in the air at all times.

[StonyBurk]

"God and th esoldier all men adore
In time of trouble then no-more
When the fighting is over --
and all things are righted
God is forgotten and the soldier is slighted" anon.
Regrettable attack-only God may know if it was anything
beyond this.Let the dead bury the dead.

[sinkspur]

This article is from someone who's starting to get worried about what his reception will be at the gates to Heaven.

Another non-argument. And a colosally STUPID non-argument as well.

[cpdiii]

I notice that the transcripts are of Israeli rescue pilots. Where in the hell are the transcripts of the fighter pilots that "identified" the ship prior to attack and where are the transcripts of the command to attack the vessel.

[xzins]

Oh boy, another Liberty thread.

It's not like there's new info.

[adam_az]

"We also know from now declassified traffic that the US Sixth Fleet launched aircraft to support the USS Liberty which were CALLED BACK. Presumably the recall order came from the DC area not the area commander. Once again the message traffic would be useful."

Thats because the planes launched were armed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

Tapes were released last year, BTW. I'm sure a websearch will turn up transcripts.

[B4Ranch]

Another non-argument. And a colosally STUPID non-argument as well.

sinkspur, I know you're ticked off that I haven't been permanently banned, so I felt that in order to keep your blood pressure above normal, I should include something that was easy for you to jump on and requiring no thought.

Care to make any comments about #7, #11, or #12 where I explain where I am getting my information from........the JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY

Come on say that they are a ragtag outfit, show us your true idiocy.

Discussion with you closed.

[Dr._Joseph_Warren]

Earlier in the morning of June 8, the Israelis had surveyed and identified a ship in the area as the USS Liberty. A neutral green marker was placed on a model to represent the Liberty's position. Two hours later, the marker was removed since the ship's position would have changed by then and a new senior Israeli official came on duty who was not informed of the Liberty's presence in the area, Oren explained.

The removal of the marker, a miscalculation of the speed at which the Liberty was traveling that would have indicated it was not a warship, and a breakdown in communication between the Israeli Navy and Army were all Israeli errors that contributed to orders to attack the ship.

Hard to believe that the best military in the world could be capable of such incompetence!

Question. Were any of the Israeli military personnel court martialed for this? They obviously knew they had screwed up. What are the names of the officers punished for their ineptitude?

[SJackson]

You could go to the link in 11, quoted selectively (they conclude it was an accident) as the JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY not an entertainment newspaper, the multitude of USS Liberty threads for the pilots comments or to his first interview.

Spector had always refused to discuss the attack on the USS Liberty, which killed 34 US sailors and wounded 172, or even be revealed as the pilot who led the attack on her. Until now.

"I did not fire on the Liberty as a human target. I was sent to attack a sailing vessel. This ship was on an escape route from the El Arish area, which at that same moment had heavy smoke rising from it," Spector said.

"It was thought to be an Egyptian vessel. This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck," he told The Jerusalem Post. "This was not there, so it wasn't one of ours."

The concern of the IAF was that Spector and his wingman, who had been diverted from the Suez Canal, would strike one of the Israel Navy ships in pursuit of the vessel, which was assumed to be Egyptian. IAF archival recordings of the pilots' radio transmission of the actual attack obtained by the Post show that Spector was specifically requested to verify that the ship was a military vessel and not Israeli.

According to the June 8, 1967, radio transmission, Spector said: "I can't identify it but in any case it's a military ship."

Speaking of the event 36 years later may have caused Spector to mix what he remembered with what he may have read and his testimony does not always match archival facts.

"I circled it twice and it did not fire on me. My assumption was that it was likely to open fire at me and nevertheless I slowed down and I looked and there was positively no flag. Just to make sure I photographed it," said Spector, who retired from active duty as a brigadier-general in 1984.

Experts intimately acquainted with the incident said that the only photos Spector took were from his gun-sight camera during his strafing run. Regardless of whether the 455-foot ship bristling with eavesdropping antennas flew a US flag, which it evidently did from its starboard halyard, that banner was shot off in Spector's first strafing pass.

"I was told on the radio that it was an Egyptian ship off the Gaza coast. Hit it. The luck of the ship was that I was armed only with light ammunition [30mm] against aircraft. If I had had a bomb it would be sitting on the bottom today like the Titanic. I promise you," Spector said.

The 30mm rounds were armor piercing, which to this day led Liberty survivors to believe they had been under rocket attack. Spector's first pass ignited a fire which caused the ship to billow black smoke. Ironically, Spector transmitted he suspected the Liberty was putting out smoke to deliberately mask itself.

"Every order is given by commanders and the last one to receive it has to decide whether he will pull the trigger or not. In this instance I was the fighter. I checked what I had to check [i.e. that it was a military ship and not one of ours] and pulled the trigger," Spector said.

"The crew should be thankful for their luck [that I was on an air-to-air mission and did not have any bombs]. It is a pity we attacked. I'm sorry for poor Capt. (William Loren) McGonagle, who was wounded in the leg and the other guys who were killed and wounded."

"I'm sorry for the mistake. Years later my mates dropped flowers on the site where the ship was attacked," Spector said. "I'm the last guy who has a problem with admitting mistakes and asking for forgiveness. There was a mistake, but it wasn't my mistake."

He added he remains baffled that the conspiracy theories live on that Israel deliberately attacked the US intelligence ship. He suggested it might be due to anti-Semitism, or anti-Israeli sentiments.

"I know that after the war one of the first things that was done was the establishment of a [US] senator's inquiry. I know this personally, because I was called upon to testify before it. They came to the country and I was questioned. I told them what I told you just now – that there was a mistake. I am sorry for the mistake. In war mistakes happen," Spector said.

He said that he had never in the past 36 years ever met with any of the Liberty survivors, but has no qualms about doing so now.

"They must understand that a mistake was made here," Spector said. "The fool is one who wanders about in the dark in dangerous places, so they should not come with any complaints."

[sinkspur]

Your link doesn't work.

Oh, and I don't care whether you're banned or not. Your posts are target-rich.

[SJackson]

Care to make any comments about #7, #11, or #12 where I explain where I am getting my information from........the JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY...Come on say that they are a ragtag outfit, show us your true idiocy.

They're an excellent source, thanks for bringing them to the thread and vouching for them.

I'd suggest everyone read them. I'm glad the matter's settled for you and you agree it was a greivous accident.

-------------------

The USS Liberty The Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was a grievous error, largely attributable to the fact that it occurred in the midst of the confusion of a full-scale war in 1967. Ten official United States investigations and three official Israeli inquiries have all conclusively established the attack was a tragic mistake. On June 8, 1967, the fourth day of the Six-Day War, the Israeli high command received reports that Israeli troops in El Arish were being fired upon from the sea, presumably by an Egyptian vessel, as they had a day before. The United States had announced that it had no naval forces within hundreds of miles of the battle front on the floor of the United Nations a few days earlier; however, the USS Liberty, an American intelligence ship assigned to monitor the fighting, arrived in the area, 14 miles off the Sinai coast, as a result of a series of United States communication failures, whereby messages directing the ship not to approach within 100 miles were not received by the Liberty. The Israelis mistakenly thought this was the ship doing the shelling and war planes and torpedo boats attacked, killing 34 members of the Liberty's crew and wounding 171. Numerous mistakes were made by both the United States and Israel. For example, the Liberty was first reported — incorrectly, as it turned out — to be cruising at 30 knots (it was later recalculated to be 28 knots). Under Israeli (and U.S.) naval doctrine at the time, a ship proceeding at that speed was presumed to be a warship. The sea was calm and the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry found that the Liberty's flag was very likely drooped and not discernible; moreover, members of the crew, including the Captain, Commander William McGonagle, testified that the flag was knocked down after the first or second assault. According to Israeli Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin's memoirs, there were standing orders to attack any unidentified vessel near the shore.1 The day fighting began, Israel had asked that American ships be removed from its coast or that it be notified of the precise location of U.S. vessels.2 The Sixth Fleet was moved because President Johnson feared being drawn into a confrontation with the Soviet Union. He also ordered that no aircraft be sent near Sinai. A CIA report on the incident issued June 13, 1967, also found that an overzealous pilot could mistake the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, the El Quseir. After the air raid, Israeli torpedo boats identified the Liberty as an Egyptian naval vessel. When the Liberty began shooting at the Israelis, they responded with the torpedo attack, which killed 28 of the sailors. Initially, the Israelis were terrified that they had attacked a Soviet ship and might have provoked the Soviets to join the fighting.3 Once the Israelis were sure what had happened, they reported the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv and offered to provide a helicopter for the Americans to fly out to the ship and any help they required to evacuate the injured and salvage the ship. The offer was accepted and a U.S. naval attaché was flown to the Liberty. Many of the survivors of the Liberty remain bitter, and are convinced the attack was deliberate as they make clear on their web site. In 1991, columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak trumpeted their discovery of an American who said he had been in the Israeli war room when the decision was made to knowingly attack the American ship.4 In fact, that individual, Seth Mintz, wrote a letter to the Washington Post on November 9, 1991, in which he said he was misquoted by Evans and Novak and that the attack, was, in fact, a "case of mistaken identity." Moreover, the man who Mintz originally said had been with him, a Gen. Benni Matti, does not exist. Also, contrary to claims that an Israeli pilot identified the ship as American on a radio tape, no one has ever produced this tape. In fact, the official Israeli Air Force tape clearly established that no such identification of the ship was made by the Israeli pilots prior to the attack. It also indicates that once the pilots became concerned about the identity of the ship, by virtue of reading its hull number, they terminated the attack. The tapes do not contain any statement suggesting the pilots saw a U.S. flag before the attack.5 Critics claimed the Israeli tape was doctored, but the National Security Agency of the United States released formerly top secret transcripts in July 2003 that confirmed the Israeli version. A U.S. spy plane was sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack on the Liberty and recorded the conversations of two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots, which took place between 2:30 and 3:37 p.m. on June 8. The orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at the Hatzor base instructing them to search for Egyptian survivors from the "Egyptian warship" that had just been bombed were also recorded by the NSA. "Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian," the pilots were informed. Nine minutes later, Hatzor told the pilots the ship was believed to be an Egyptian cargo ship. At 3:07, the pilots were first told the ship might not be Egyptian and were instructed to search for survivors and inform the base immediately the nationality of the first person they rescued. It was not until 3:12 that one of the pilots reported that he saw an American flag flying over the ship at which point he was instructed to verify if it was indeed a U.S. vessel.6 In October 2003, the first Israeli pilot to reach the ship broke his 36-year silence on the attack. Brig.-Gen. Yiftah Spector, a triple ace, who shot down 15 enemy aircraft and took part in the 1981 raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, said he had been told an Egyptian ship was off the Gaza coast. "This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck. This was not there, so it wasn't one of ours." The Jerusalem Post obtained a recording of Spector's radio transmission in which he said, "I can't identify it, but in any case it's a military ship."7 Spector's plane was not armed with bombs or, he said, he would have sunk the Liberty. Instead he fired 30mm armor piercing rounds that led the American survivors to believe they had been under rocket attack. His first pass ignited a fire, which caused the ship to billow black smoke that Spector thought was a ruse to conceal the ship. Spector acknowledged in the Post interview that he made a mistake, and said he admitted it when called to testify in an inquiry by a U.S. senator. "I'm sorry for the mistake," he said. "Years later my mates dropped flowers on the site where the ship was attacked." None of Israel's accusers can explain why Israel would deliberately attack an American ship at a time when the United States was Israel's only friend and supporter in the world. Confusion in a long line of communications, which occurred in a tense atmosphere on both the American and Israeli sides (five messages from the Joint Chiefs of Staff for the ship to remain at least 25 miles — the last four said 100 miles — off the Egyptian coast arrived after the attack was over) is a more probable explanation. Accidents caused by “friendly fire” are common in wartime. In 1988, the U.S. Navy mistakenly downed an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 civilians. During the Gulf War, 35 of the 148 Americans who died in battle were killed by “friendly fire.” In April 1994, two U.S. Black Hawk helicopters with large U.S. flags painted on each side were shot down by U.S. Air Force F-15s on a clear day in the “no fly” zone of Iraq, killing 26 people. In April 2002, an American F-16 dropped a bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. In fact, the day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli pilots accidentally bombed one of their own armored columns.8 Retired Admiral, Shlomo Erell, who was Chief of the Navy in Israel in June 1967, told the Associated Press (June 5, 1977): “No one would ever have dreamt that an American ship would be there. Even the United States didn't know where its ship was. We were advised by the proper authorities that there was no American ship within 100 miles.” Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara told Congress on July 26, 1967: “It was the conclusion of the investigatory body, headed by an admiral of the Navy in whom we have great confidence, that the attack was not intentional.” In 1987, McNamara repeated his belief that the attack was a mistake, telling a caller on the “Larry King Show” that he had seen nothing in the 20 years since to change his mind that there had been no “cover­up.”8 Israel apologized for the tragedy and paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and to the families of the victims in amounts established by the U.S. State Department. The matter was officially closed between the two governments by an exchange of diplomatic notes on December 17, 1987. Notes 1For the most comprehensive analysis, see A. Jay Cristol, The Liberty Incident. (Washington, D.C.: Brassey's Inc., 2002);Yitzhak Rabin, The Rabin Memoirs, (CA: University of California Press, 1996), pp. 108-109. 2Rabin, p. 110. 3Dan Kurzman, Soldier of Peace: The Life of Yitzhak Rabin, (NY: HarperCollins, 1998), pp. 224-227; Rabin, p. 108-109. 4Washington Post, (November 6, 1991). 5Hirsh Goodman, “Messrs. Errors and No Facts,” Jerusalem Report (November 21, 1991). 6Nathan Guttman, "Memos show Liberty attack was an error," Ha'aretz, (July 9, 2003). 7"Pilot who bombed 'Liberty' talks to 'Post," Jerusalem Post (October 10, 2003). 8Hirsh Goodman and Ze'ev Schiff, “The Attack on the Liberty,” Atlantic Monthly, (September 1984). 9“The Larry King Show” (radio), (February 5, 1987).

[SJackson]

If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

I didn't bother with yesterday's thread, Israel blamed for USS Liberty attack, but for those who care to partake it's USS Liberty time again.

[B4Ranch]

http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/liberty.html

This is what was released for public consumption by the US Gov.

__________________________________________________________

In a signed affidavit released at a Capitol Hill news conference, retired Capt. Ward Boston said Johnson and McNamara told those heading the Navy's inquiry to "conclude that the attack was a case of 'mistaken identity' despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."

Boston was senior legal counsel to the Navy's original 1967 review of the attack. He said in the sworn statement that he stayed silent for years because he's a military man, and "when orders come ... I follow them."

He said he felt compelled to "share the truth" following the publication of a recent book, "The Liberty Incident," which concluded the attack was unintentional.

[fooman]

Read "Body of Secrets"

Even though the author is a lib and has a bogus agenda there is no douby the hit was deliberate to cover up some messy elements of the war.

[veronica]

I'm not partaking, I'm just reporting the "new" news from the State Dept. forum.

[B4Ranch]

JEWISH VIRTUAL LIBRARY

[Happy2BMe]

"The panel, which was open to the public, became raucous at times when survivors of the Liberty attack and a relative of a sailor killed in the incident yelled out to protest that the panel included two people who represented Israel's position, while survivors were not invited to participate."

Something about disallowing any of the survivors - those who were live witnesses to the attack - smacks of coverup.

Don't buy it.

[B4Ranch]

I don't buy it either. Another US flag was raised within minutes of the first one being shot down.

[suekas]

I've got a bridge for sale.

[curmudgeonII]

If you believe that the Israelis did not know that the Liberty was American, you probably also believe that Clinton was honest.

[Valin]

It's ALL a giant nefarious plot on the part of the Jooose!

In all these threads I've yet to see any credible reason why Israel would deliberately attack an American vessel.

[thoughtomator]

Here's a rational and believable explanation... the Israelis thought it was an Egyptian ship flying US colors.

[philman_36]

Thanx for the link. I'll have to read it all when I have some more time.

[rmlew]

Flags are misidentified. Do you really want me to recount the number of times American or Britishforces attacked allied ships when they KNEW that there were allied ships in an area?!
If Israel planned for the USS Liberty to be sunk, they would have used jets with anti-ship bombs. (AP 1000lb, torpedos...)

[Poohbah]

Just out of curiousity: do you believe that the US Navy, with malice aforethought, deliberately shot down that Iran Air flight in 1988?

[americanSoul]

Yes, the Liberty was flying the American flag and the fighter pilot said so on the radio.

Don't allow survivors to participate and you can get any report you want.

Not allowing the survivors to participate???WTFIT? These are precisely the people you want to have take part. They were THERE.

Also: Fighters from a nearby US carrier were scrambled to the Liberty's aid, but before they got there, they were recalled on f***ing Macnamara's orders.

I don't believe for one nanosecond that the Israeli pilots didn't know it was an American ship. The air and sea attack lasted quite some time, 75min in fact. Those who managed to get into life rafts, were then strafed by Israeli gun boats.

The Israelis claim there was no pre-attack reconnaissance, but in fact about an hour before the attack, a LOW flying IDF reconnaissance aircraft was seen circling the Liberty.

For pic see http://www.ussliberty.org/00/0044.htm

They could plainly see it was American boys there on deck.

Caveat: this is rumoured at in the book "Assault on the USS Liberty":

One reason for the attack MAY have been to cover up the killing of some few hundred Egyptian POWs in the Sinai. They feared the Americans on the Liberty would get wind of this. Again, I emphasize that this is conjecture from the book.

Now veronica, you use the term "usual suspects" referring to those who believe the attack was deliberate. So then the former JCS Chairman Admiral Thomas Moorer and Secretary of State Dean Rusk fall into this category.

I am a firm supporter of Israel and think it is the most free country in the Middle East and that Israel is the victim, definitely not the aggressor in the conflict.

But on the Liberty issue, I gotta call it as I see it.

Shalom.

[B4Ranch]

Of course I do!

Actually, I am not up the subject, so I'll take what you say about it as probable.

[B4Ranch]

The Israelis claim there was no pre-attack reconnaissance, but in fact about an hour before the attack, a LOW flying IDF reconnaissance aircraft was seen circling the Liberty.

Scan the whole page for good reading!
Conservative Debate Handbook

[Poohbah]

Actually, I am not up the subject, so I'll take what you say about it as probable.

Ah. Get studied up and tell me if you think that the US Navy blasted an Airbus out of the sky for nefarious reasons.

[americanSoul]

See #40 for link to recon photo, and some more info/conjecture.

BTW, there were some Jewish American heroes serving on the USS Liberty.

Why the recall of the US fighters? One poster mentioned it was because they had nukes. Come on, as if this is all they were armed with? What about cannon?

And veronica, this "usual suspects" refrain is not a rational argument. Those of us who believe it was deliberate, are mostly trying real hard to be objective.

[B4Ranch]

Review these, then tell me what you think.

Here is an Israeli reconnaissance airplane that circled the ship about an hour before the attack. The pilot was heard reporting to HQ that he saw an American flag and men sunning themselves on deck.

Israeli torpedo boat circling the ship

This is what Israel says they thought they were attacking)

USS Liberty

This is the flag that Israel claims its pilots and torpedomen could not see. While the attack was underway, an even larger flag was hoisted.
PHOTO LINKS

[Poohbah]

Why the recall of the US fighters? One poster mentioned it was because they had nukes. Come on, as if this is all they were armed with? What about cannon?

They were F-4B Phantom IIs. No cannon--the Department of Defense had believed all the hype about "push-button beyond-visual-range air combat."

And in those days, once the carrier got east of Malta, it was a SIOP asset, and the alert birds were nuclear-armed.

[B4Ranch]

Sorry, I won't bother. My opinion would count as much with you as yours does with me.

[americanSoul]

__________________________________________________________ In a signed affidavit released at a Capitol Hill news conference, retired Capt. Ward Boston said Johnson and McNamara told those heading the Navy's inquiry to "conclude that the attack was a case of 'mistaken identity' despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."

This is new info for me, thanks.

That Robert "whiz kid" McNamara was a world class screw up and liar who cost the lives of thousands of American soldiers. He finally admitted he was wrong on Vietnam. But he was also deliberately and cold bloodly deceitful.

And the sad and frustrating part of people like him, they usually live to a ripe old age and die peacefully and have a comfortable life. (most probably due to the absence of any moral compass whatsoever)

[SJackson]

That generally makes sense.