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France and Germany discuss union
Guardian ^ | 11/13/03 | Jon Henley in Paris

Posted on 11/12/2003 7:09:20 PM PST by Pikamax

France and Germany discuss union

Jon Henley in Paris Thursday November 13, 2003 The Guardian

France and Germany are publicly discussing the possibility of a "Franco-German union" that would allow them to cooperate more closely in such areas as education, social affairs and the economy and even merge their defence and foreign policies, the French daily Le Monde said yesterday. The paper said that at this stage Europe's two most powerful nations, whose historic enmity has been transformed into the main driving force towards European integration, saw the project primarily as a tactic to ensure that countries such as Spain and Poland do not block the planned European constitution, paralysing the EU as it expands to 25 members next year.

But beyond short-term tactical considerations, some form of Franco-German union is seen by leaders particularly in Paris as a vital future step. The French foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, said the project was "essential" and "the only historic gamble that we cannot lose".

The prime minister, Jean-Pierre Raffarin, who earlier this month hoisted a joint meeting of French and German regional authorities, also believes the two countries' relations have never been closer and that the time is ripe to go "pretty far", Le Monde said. After a shaky period during and immediately after the stormy Nice EU summit in December 2000, Paris and Berlin have worked conspicuously hard to get the so-called Franco-German motor firing again.

Their efforts culminated earlier this year when the French president, Jacques Chirac, and the German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, signed a declaration promising more cooperation in areas ranging from crime to foreign policy.

They also said France and Germany would seek to "adopt common positions" in international bodies, including the UN security council, hold joint cabinet meetings, harmonise national laws wherever possible, and each appoint a senior official to oversee Franco-German cooperation.

Since then the two countries' relationship has been further cemented by the role they played in opposing the US-led invasion of Iraq, and more recently Mr Chirac represented Mr Schröder at an European council meeting in October.

But it is the realisation in both capitals that without the closest possible cooperation, France and Germany could well lose much of their influence in a larger EU that seems to be driving the project for a Franco-German union.

Le Monde quoted Mr Raffarin as saying: "If Europe with 25 members is a failure, what is left for France? The initiative of Franco-German rapprochement."

The prime minister reportedly continued, during a recent informal debate, to praise the "efficiency" of Paris's relations with Berlin and to say he could "well imagine that one day a German commissioner could represent France in Brussels."


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: axisofweasals; cheeseeating; dairyproducts; eu; europeanunion; falloftheussr; france; germany; shorttermmemory; surrendermonkeys; vichyfrance2; vichyfranceii
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1 posted on 11/12/2003 7:09:20 PM PST by Pikamax
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To: Pikamax
The French obviously suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.
2 posted on 11/12/2003 7:10:20 PM PST by Timmy
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To: Pikamax
Their efforts culminated earlier this year when the French president, Jacques Chirac, and the German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, signed a declaration promising more cooperation in areas ranging from crime to foreign policy.

Whereupon a criminal foreign policy was collectively pursued.

3 posted on 11/12/2003 7:15:05 PM PST by aposiopetic
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To: Timmy
"well imagine that one day a German commissioner could represent France in Brussels."

Ummmm, the French can't stand it when something has a name with a foreign pedigree. They insisted on coming up with a new made up french word for "e-mail". No, they can see a Frenchman representing Germany, but I will be shocked if we ever see a German representing France.
4 posted on 11/12/2003 7:15:07 PM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: Timmy; knighthawk; a_Turk; Turk2
"If Europe with 25 members is a failure, what is left for France? The initiative of Franco-German rapprochement."

I suppose it's a "failure" in French eyes since those pesky East Europeans won't kowtow.

5 posted on 11/12/2003 7:15:28 PM PST by Shermy (France chose Saddam.)
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To: Timmy
Isn't it called Finlandization? It is named for Finland's adopting of Soviet positions for fear of their large neighbor.
6 posted on 11/12/2003 7:15:52 PM PST by Ingtar (Understanding is a three-edged sword : your side, my side, and the truth in between ." -- Kosh)
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To: Timmy

7 posted on 11/12/2003 7:16:28 PM PST by Reeses
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: Pikamax
Funny...there never was much discussion in previous French/ German unions. =D
9 posted on 11/12/2003 7:19:36 PM PST by Skwidd (Fire Controlman First Class Extraordinaire)
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To: Pikamax; snippy_about_it; Matthew Paul

The last German/france union cost the US a lot of blood. I guess the french miss the old days of cooperating with the Germans on shipping Jews to the East.

10 posted on 11/12/2003 7:23:11 PM PST by SAMWolf (F U CN RD THS U CNT SPL WRTH A DM!)
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To: Shermy
The project was "essential" and "the only historic gamble that we cannot lose".

Seeing as how the gamble to go up against the USA failed miserably and both countries have found themselves serving drinks at the cocktail party of international importance.

So, together they can allow their mutual socialism to take them down into glorious flames. Can't wait!

11 posted on 11/12/2003 7:23:46 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Peace through Strength)
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To: Pikamax
Immediate reactions:

1. The EU must really be in tatters if this is what they are resorting to.
2. Are the French really that stupid?
3. These two deserve each other.
4. This has a certain 'Jerry Springer' sickness about it. Like 'Victims who marry their rapists'.

12 posted on 11/12/2003 7:24:18 PM PST by Monti Cello
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To: Monti Cello
I am speechless.
13 posted on 11/12/2003 7:28:14 PM PST by MEG33
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To: Pikamax
France and Germany discuss union

Now,......exactly where are they planning to build their new 'concentration camps'.....what types of 'gas'...?

/sarcsam

14 posted on 11/12/2003 7:28:31 PM PST by maestro
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To: Pikamax
The Feckless French strike again. Since Napoleons day the French have been a net liability. Nothing changes except Germany, after attacking France and being defeated ultimately in both cases by an Anglo-American force, now succeeds by the simple expedient of allowing the French to role over. Perfect. Now the French can drag themselves and the Germans into the cesspit.
15 posted on 11/12/2003 7:29:37 PM PST by Adrastus
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To: Timmy
The French obviously suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.

So do the Germans. They've been conquered twice by the French, and only returned the favor once.

16 posted on 11/12/2003 7:34:51 PM PST by NovemberCharlie
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To: Pikamax
LOL, the french think the germans are going to bale them out of their financial disaster, and the germans think the french are going to be their financial savior. Instead, the combined unemployment and stiff social costs are going to drag both of them deeper into the cesspool.
17 posted on 11/12/2003 7:37:07 PM PST by McGavin999
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To: Pikamax
Why exactly did we go over there and rescue these p*tz-heads twice anyway?
18 posted on 11/12/2003 7:37:25 PM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces †)
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To: Pikamax
France and Germany are publicly discussing the possibility of a "Franco-German union"

*** ***** ******

Hitler wins! Why did we even bother?
19 posted on 11/12/2003 7:38:49 PM PST by longtermmemmory
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To: NovemberCharlie
The French obviously suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.

So do the Germans. They've been conquered twice by the French, and only returned the favor once.

Remember,....it was both,...the French and the Germans that 'produced',....Stalin and Hitler,.......Ah,...watching 'NATZO'.

:-(

20 posted on 11/12/2003 7:39:39 PM PST by maestro
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To: longtermmemmory
Well, at least it'll be a race to see whether the Germans or the Islamic loonies get their hands on France's nukes.
21 posted on 11/12/2003 7:42:59 PM PST by Cloud William
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To: Monti Cello
The EU must really be in tatters if this is what they are resorting to.

Yep, that was my first thought, too. This German-French union has always been at the core of the E.U.; I've always believed that the other nations involved were mere window-dressing, though they probably were not aware of that fact.

22 posted on 11/12/2003 7:46:59 PM PST by Cloud William
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To: maestro
Here is another theory. The euro as a currency is failing. The rich nations are subsidizing the ecconomically weaker nations. (see affirmative action bake sale) Could it be that France and Germany are setting themselves up for a way "out" of the EU?

England is discussing withdrawal when they should have been counting the votes for approving the euro.

10 new nations are joining the EU and demanding the farming subidies that were promised in exchange for a yes vote.

The organization charged with tracking the strength of the euro is in the midst of its second scandal. (the group brought in to clean up the first scandal was caught doing the same number manipulations)

The EU is split in supporting/opposing the US or UN.

Individual nation states refuse to surrend all international policy in favor of the EU. (actually in favor of what france and germany say they should do.)

The euro is just a retooled deutch mark anyways.

France was given a pass on their breach of the EU treaty regarding budget deficit controls.

*somebody is planing ahead.

23 posted on 11/12/2003 7:49:33 PM PST by longtermmemmory
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To: JackRyanCIA
(s) Islam is not a religion per se. Its more a philosophy. Therefore not subject to the seperation of church and state. Islamic law therefor must be incorperated into EU law in order to assure "diversity" and peaceful "co-existence." Those of the Islamic "philosophy" only desire room to grow......"spiritually". Its about peace in out time.(/s)
24 posted on 11/12/2003 7:52:55 PM PST by longtermmemmory
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To: Pikamax
Read Larry Bonds Cauldron. Its about a Franco-German Union that starts WWIII on the Euro contintent. The good thing about the book is Larry paints the French as arrogant, whiny and untrustworthy. Oh, wait a minute....
25 posted on 11/12/2003 7:54:32 PM PST by cardinal4 (Hillary and Clark rhymes with Ft Marcy park...)
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To: Pikamax
This'll be fun to watch.
26 posted on 11/12/2003 7:54:35 PM PST by Savage Beast (This is the choice: confrontation or capitulation. Appeasement is capitulation.)
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To: Savage Beast
And warren buffet holding all those euros. (the future of toilet paper)
27 posted on 11/12/2003 7:56:13 PM PST by longtermmemmory
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Pikamax
The paper said that at this stage Europe's two most powerful nations, whose historic enmity has been transformed into the main driving force towards European integration, saw the project primarily as a tactic to ensure that countries such as Spain and Poland do not block the planned European constitution...

What could this possibly mean in practice? Franco-Prussian (I mean, German) cooperation does not take away Poland's or Spain's ability to vote against the EU Constitution. Could this be a physical-intimidation-type threat?

Fourth Reich alert.

29 posted on 11/12/2003 8:03:30 PM PST by ellery
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To: Pikamax
Maybe if the capital were Aachen....
30 posted on 11/12/2003 8:06:37 PM PST by Styria
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To: Pikamax
Ah, this would be a marriage made in heaven.

I presume they'll ask Bishop Robinson to preside over the union?

Leni

31 posted on 11/12/2003 8:10:22 PM PST by MinuteGal
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To: longtermmemmory
Here is another theory. The euro as a currency is failing. The rich nations are subsidizing the ecconomically weaker nations. (see affirmative action bake sale) Could it be that France and Germany are setting themselves up for a way "out" of the EU?

Could it be that France and Germany are setting themselves up for a way "out" of the EU?

Not 'out,....but, a major/total reorganization!

Soviet Russia's 'France' is still very much alive and well!

Commrades 'all-around'......!!

:-(

32 posted on 11/12/2003 8:16:39 PM PST by maestro
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To: freedumb2003; a_Turk
So, together they can allow their mutual socialism to take them down into glorious flames. Can't wait!

It could end up splitting the "EU" - France-Germ-Belgium v. everyone else. Maybe even a NATO (With Russia) v. Franco-German Empire bipolar world.

Heck, Chirac always complains about a "Unipolar" world!

33 posted on 11/12/2003 8:21:37 PM PST by Shermy (France chose Saddam.)
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To: MEG33
I thought that was a pig I saw flying this evening!
34 posted on 11/12/2003 8:24:21 PM PST by SwinneySwitch (Freedom isn't Free - Support the Troops & Vets!!)
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To: Pikamax
France and Germany… see the project primarily as a tactic to ensure that countries such as Spain and Poland do not block the planned European constitution (written by the French, for the French), paralysing the EU as it expands to 25 members next year.

But it is the realisation in both capitals that without the closest possible cooperation, France and Germany could well lose much of their influence in a larger EU that seems to be driving the project for a Franco-German union.

The French foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, said the project was "essential" and "the only historic gamble that we cannot lose".

This tells me that the EU is not a “Union” at all, but merely a vehicle used by a desperate France and Germany to dominate the rest of Europe.

35 posted on 11/12/2003 8:31:49 PM PST by RJL
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To: RJL
Your#35.....correct!

This tells me that the EU is not a ?Union? at all, but merely a vehicle used by a desperate France and Germany to dominate the rest of Europe.

...a vehicle used by SOVIET RUSSIA'S two colonies....the desperate France and Germany to dominate the rest of Europe.

The ongoing 'Internationale' is alive and well!

:-(

36 posted on 11/12/2003 8:41:30 PM PST by maestro
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To: Pikamax
France and Germany discuss union...There`s something very 'gay' sounding about that.
37 posted on 11/12/2003 8:41:52 PM PST by metalboy (Liberals-Nuke `em from orbit. It`s the only way to be sure.)
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To: Shermy
"It could end up splitting the "EU" - France-Germ-Belgium v. everyone else"

populations:

Germany: 82,797,408
France: 59,329,691
Belgium: 10,241,506
TOTAL: 152,368,605

USA: 275,562,673
UK: 59,511,464
TOTAL: 335,074,137

(source: World Factbook)

So just the English speaking world is 220% (over twice the size) of this "uber-frog" union. Two pygmies doth not a giant make.
38 posted on 11/12/2003 8:57:07 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Peace through Strength)
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To: Pikamax
Charlemagne would be pleased to see his empire reassembled.
39 posted on 11/12/2003 8:57:58 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
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To: Timmy
"The French obviously suffer from Stockholm Syndrome."

Nice call...

And at this point, the psyche-fragile Germany also appear ready to become a nation of cultural transvestites if that's what it takes to be France's b*tch.

40 posted on 11/12/2003 8:58:03 PM PST by F16Fighter
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To: Monti Cello
Well, in Great Britain, they don't call the "new" EU the Fourth Reich for no reason.

It takes the frogs a while to catch on...

41 posted on 11/12/2003 9:00:14 PM PST by Publius6961 (40% of Californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks.)
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To: Styria
Maybe if the capital were Aachen....

What is this Aachen? You mean Aix-la-Chapelle?

42 posted on 11/12/2003 9:10:19 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: Pikamax
Then again who believes anything published in the Guardian??
43 posted on 11/12/2003 9:19:13 PM PST by GeronL (Visit www.geocities.com/geronl.....and.....www.returnoftheprimitive.com)
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To: maestro
No concentration camps Europe is now suitably JudenFrei.
44 posted on 11/12/2003 9:21:51 PM PST by glorgau
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To: Unam Sanctam
They haven't been joined in almost 1200 years. Everything old becomes new again. Charlemagne defended Western Civilization against all barbarians. Maybe his time has come again.
45 posted on 11/12/2003 9:31:57 PM PST by Eternal_Bear
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To: Pikamax
Isn't this pretty much what we're doing with Mexico?
46 posted on 11/12/2003 9:36:18 PM PST by FITZ
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: Timmy
In light of the pending Muslim takeover of both countries, this is like the proverbial "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic".
48 posted on 11/12/2003 11:50:50 PM PST by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis)
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To: Matthew Paul
In its current form it's totally unacceptable by the vast majority of Poles. Only 7% of Poles accept the French proposal without any objections, while 72% of the questioned reject it "en mass". 43% of Poles (me, too) say it’s a french trial to take our Independence away and find the project of the constitution insulting and outrageous.

That's good news, hopefully Poland rejects any takeover of their independence.

49 posted on 11/13/2003 12:06:12 AM PST by SAMWolf (Great leaders resolve conflicts with words. Words like Carpet Bombing, Cruise Missle & Daisy Cutter)
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To: Cloud William
I believe that the German constitution forbids nukes. Would that mean they would have to be destroyed? Would they alter the constitution, or would the constitution just be another empty document that neither the French or the Germans will honor, or is the new treaty the empty document. It all gets so confusing when liars are involved.
50 posted on 11/13/2003 3:23:39 AM PST by Cdnexpat (Mr Bush, please don't speak to any member of a Liberal government on any topic.)
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