NEOCONS UNFAZED BY UKRAINE'S CATASTROPHIC CASUALTIES - UKRAINE STARTS TO DISAPPEAR

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[AnglePark]

I would have thought that person would stop making predictions.

Not gonna happen -- most folks think too highly of their own opinion. It's the way of the world, unfortunately. Too many cooks in the kitchen, so to speak.

I made my one false prediction about Ukraine early last year, when I said Putin wouldn't invade. That prediction was based mainly on years of believing the Russian armed forces are garbage, so why would Putin expose that for Ukraine, of all places? And now the whole world knows the Russian army is no better than any other Third World country.

[ganeemead]

" I wish the current crop of Democrat and RINO neocons wouldn't be throwing money into an abyss. "

It would be one thing if it were their money.....

[Worldtraveler once upon a time]

--- " 'I wish the current crop of Democrat and RINO neocons wouldn't be throwing money into an abyss.' It would be one thing if it were their money....."

While I am sure we two will disagree about things form time to time, what peeves me is that -- as in post 39 -- Poland's GDP-to-debt ratio is about 50 percent, while this United States is at 122 percent and growing. Widening to include more data, Germany's GDP-to-debt ratio is about 67 percent, while France, to put things in balance, is about 112 percent. Everyone's in bloody debt and the notion of "acting" in the war between two currently non-NATO nations is lunacy, all the high-sounding chatter notwithstanding.

Russia's -- and I don;'t care what various opinions, positive or negative are -- stands currently at circa 18 percent GDP-to-debt ratio. So whatever comes from this latest world event, the economic piper will come to call for each. Being her in the US, my focus is on that 122 percent of GDP ratio as a comment by a Pole seems to expect us and this US to go into deeper debt -- SO THEY FON'T HAVE TO.

Trump's remark about the cost of the new NATO headquarters, alone, set off alarms that the Europeans were playing us. And courtesy of the Biden-Obama neocons, they are playing us to. Neocons and their United States sized credit card....

[Kazan]

Lives are irrelevant to the neocons. Making $$$ is the only thing they care about.

[Eastern Shore Virginian]

Ancestors from Ireland. I’m in Virginia...comrade.

[DoughtyOne]

People see what they want to see.

That goes both ways.

I’m not going to recite everything Russia has gone through,
because you should already know.

[DoughtyOne]

Kabar, your comments are essentially laughable.

Crunch on this. We spend over $1 trillion dollars on
welfare each year. That’s on the order of ten times what we
spent on the Ukraine last year, if the numbers are even
accurate.

Is everyone suffering from the vapors over that?
Please link me to your myriad of posts addressing welfare.

[kabar]

Apples and oranges. Our main welfare programs, Medicare and SS, are unsustainable. They represent an unfunded liability of $100 trillion. The Medicare Trust Fund, HI, will be exhausted by 2028 and the SSTF in 2034. By law, benefits must be reduced to revenue received, which will result in a reduction of approximately 20%. I have written about the need to reform these programs many times.

The Medicaid program is out of control along with food stamps. They are rife with fraud and abuse. I have written about that as well.

The US is the world’s biggest debtor nation. We have to borrow the money, currently about $200 billion, to fund the war in Ukraine. Not only are we providing arms and ammunition, we are funding the salaries and pensions of the Ukrainian government. What benefit redounds to the American people?

Endless wars and conflicts from Korea onwards have sapped the blood and treasure of this nation. Literally trillions of dollars have been wasted along with the needless deaths of tens of thousands of Americans. We cannot fund these wars of choice. Our country is in decline. Our crumbling infrastructure is in need of repair. Our country is being flooded with illegal aliens who drain our welfare programs to the detriment of our citizens. The billions being sent to Ukraine would be better spent on our own people.

Eisenhower warned us about the military-industrial complex. Special interests in this country benefit from these endless wars. The American people do not. Death by a thousand cuts continues in Ukraine, a war that has been going on since 2014. As soon as our ignominious defeat in Afghanistan was over, we launched almost immediately into a new war. We simply can’t afford it.

[Cronos]

kabar “We have to borrow the money, currently about $200 billion, to fund the war in Ukraine. Not only are we providing arms and ammunition, we are funding the salaries and pensions of the Ukrainian government. What benefit redounds to the American people?”

Firstly - the USA isn’t borrowing money just to fund the war.

Secondly - a lot of that aid is humanitarian, while the military chunk is going to supply the Ukrainians with surplus American weaponry.

What benefit to the American people?
- it’s preventing a wider war
- it’s stopping Putin from getting the nerve to go further - imagine if Hitler had been stopped at Czechoslovakia in 1938
- it’s sending a message to the rest of the world to not try military conquests

[Cronos]

To go deeper into debt “so they don’t have to”?

you have no clue. The countries of Central Europe have massive costs due to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Inflation here has been at 17% for the past 1.5 years compared to 2% or less before that. Plus the refugees from Ukraine - about a million have been given a heck of a lot of aid + housing etc.

Of course, Poland should do that as this is the invasion of a neighbor. And the USA is doing wonderful work helping Ukraine.

[bert]

Neo-Isolationist paleocons continue to whip the dead Russian horse hoping for revival

[kabar]

Firstly - the USA isn’t borrowing money just to fund the war.

This calendar year, we are on track to run a budget deficit of $2 trillion. We have to borrow money just to maintain the current standard of living. We will pay over $500 billion in debt servicing costs alone on our $32 trillion national debt. This is unsustainable.

When Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mike Mullen, was asked what is the biggest danger to our national security, he responded, "The National Debt."

Secondly - a lot of that aid is humanitarian, while the military chunk is going to supply the Ukrainians with surplus American weaponry.

That doesn't make it any less unsustainable. Ukraine was a poor country before the war. Its GDP per capita was $14,300, just $100 more than Cuba's. And we are not providing them with "surplus weaponry." We must replenish our war stocks, which is part of the money allocated to the war.

What benefit to the American people? - it’s preventing a wider war

Pure BS. Why didn't we react the same way in 2014 when Putin annexed Crimea and the separatist movement formed in the Donbas? No real sanctions against Russia and business went on as usual including the building of Nordstream 2. Biden actually lifted US sanctions against Nordstream 2, reversing the Trump policies.

Russia represents no conventional military threat to NATO. We have no treaty obligations to defend Ukraine. The same kinds of arguments were used to get us into Vietnam. Remember the Domino Theory? The EU and US dwarf Russia in terms of population and GDP. China is our real existential threat. Yet no reaction when it seized Tibet or took over Hong Kong in violation of the agreement in had with the UK.

We are provoking a wider war by providing more aid to Ukraine, including more sophisticated weaponry. The F-16s represent the latest escalation. Putin has drawn redlines around Crimea and the Donbas. He considers Crimea to be part of Russia and will defend its territoriality up to and including nuclear weapons.

it’s stopping Putin from getting the nerve to go further - imagine if Hitler had been stopped at Czechoslovakia in 1938

More BS. Putin doesn't have the capability to go further without risking total nuclear war if he attacks a NATO country. You are totally divorced from reality if you think that Russia with 142 million people and an aging, declining population will attack and occupy Europe.

- it’s sending a message to the rest of the world to not try military conquests

Dream on. War is ongoing all over the globe. The US doesn't have the wherewithal to get involved in these conflicts. If anything, the war in Ukraine will demonstrate the powerlessness of the US to get involved and change the outcome. We just left Afghanistan in defeat after 20 years of involvement and trillions of dollars.

The real question is how do we end the war in Ukraine, a war that Ukraine cannot win. Has it really been worth it, not only for us, but also, for Ukraine? Russia shares a 1,500 mile border with Ukraine, along with hundreds of years of cultural, linguistic, and historical ties. Zelensky estimates it will take $800 billion to rebuild the country. In the meantime 7 million Ukrainians are refugees in Europe, many of whom will never go home. And 10 million Ukrainians have been displace internally. A country and an economy in shambles run by corrupt oligarchs. Can the EU foot the bill for all of this? Why should Uncle Sap continue to pay the lion's share of the bill for this proxy war?

[Worldtraveler once upon a time]

Your comment reminds me of the big-city Democrats in California and New York, when the California state budget is in growing deficit even with taxes rising alongside inflation. Yea for everybody, including the homeless and refugees. Until they camp out in front of your business and drive off your customers. As Ukraine slowly fails to remove the Ruskies, our beloved Democrats will expect you to be the next Ukraine. Who's up at bat? Even with a 50% debt ratio, compared to Biden's 122%, you'll be up at bat.

The neighbors we had in Germany uniformly are telling us they will not send their sons to fight, so Scholz sends munitions and materiel but not lives, while Baerbock cheers on "war" with Russia. Where do you think the new personnel will be coming from?

Personally,Cronos, I hope it won't be you and yours. But someone will be expected to be press ganged, as time passes. This from an ex-Viet Nam era old guy who doesn't trust lying politicians.

[Worldtraveler once upon a time]

I returned to this thread, superficially because of a comment to me to which I wished to respond, and came across yours. You write, "Why should Uncle Sap continue to pay the lion's share of the bill for this proxy war?"

Kudos for formulating the question. For Americans, it IS the question to ask.

Kudos also for your previous question. You write, "Can the EU foot the bill for all of this? The answer to that is subtle, because they don't want to as long as "Uncle Sap" is driving the war bus.

[kabar]

This from an ex-Viet Nam era old guy who doesn't trust lying politicians.

Funny how this experience shapes one's views. I spent a year in-country, including during the Tet offensive, and another 8 months off the coast on an LPH with a battalion of Marines launching attacks against the coast. The waste of American blood and treasure is hard to reconcile.

I have seen enough of other wars and revolutions to question our involvement in these follies that have killed millions and left countries devastated. The Ukraine War could have been avoided if we, the United States, had been involved more diplomatically. And yes the Trump Administration could have done more. They derided Obama for sending pillows and blankets, but Trump did little to change the policies of NATO expansion and then added the supply of lethal weapons. Zelensky campaigned as the peace candidate. We ignored Russia's red lines and pushed ahead with policies that were sure to provoke Putin.

The disproportionate reaction to Putin's second invasion of Ukraine tells me that there are other agendas at work. All roads seem to lead back to Ukraine whether it is the Russia hoax or the Biden Crime Family or our intel community.

Has any one talked about the damage the Russia hoax did to ur bilateral relations with Russia? I would love to hear the Russian perspective on how it affected their relationship with the US.

[Cronos]

Nah WT — you’re acting like a Demoncrat by completely ignoring what is reality.

The reality is that Poland, Romania etc. are also heavily contributing to helping Ukraine fend off the invaders.

You want to cut the deficit? Then $200B isn’t the target place - instead target the pork in Washington.

Eliminate Medicaid, Medicare, farm subsidies, refundable tax credits etc.

The 200 aid to Ukraine saves the trillions that would be if the war escalated (if Putin had got his way)

[Cronos]

for the matter of which personnel are going to fight — the war isn’t escalating beyond the Russian borders with Ukraine as Putin has exhausted Russia’s able bodied male supply.

[Worldtraveler once upon a time]

--- "Has any one talked about the damage the Russia hoax did to ur bilateral relations with Russia?"

California's Schiff of the Russiagate fame for years played that single string -- always targeting Trump. LTC Vindman and others testifying against Trump in hearings with hearsay and conjecture. That time was all about unseating a president by Democrat narratives which the media lapped up like a cat on cream. The larger picture is one of a "liberal world order" in Biden's turn of phrase, and "rules-based order" in von der Leyen's parlance, in which some lead and the many are expected to follow. Not following brings attempted retribution, whether it be in J6 sentences far longer than reasonable, and this messy war between two supposedly non-NATO thugs. Pick one, because the argument is there are only two possibilities in a world of more than two.

Your "all roads seem to lead back to Ukraine whether it is the Russia hoax or the Biden Crime Family or our intel community" will upset the "lovers of freedom" on this thread, I expect. I amend your statement, if you don't mind. All roads lead back THROUGH Ukraine to the Obama-Biden "world order" with the Institute of War folks deep in the mix. Ukraine never had a chance, because they were set up to be used.

Olive drab -- there was no desert storm uniform for us now-old folks -- back at you. Best regards.

[Worldtraveler once upon a time]

Unhappy Cronos. You've forgotten Volhynia and Eastern Galicia. This time the Ukrainians are the good guys. For sure.

Someone is still wearing the OUN insignia on his sweaters. Yea, team.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists

[kabar]