USS Forrestal July 29, 1967

Revski's Youtube Ministry ^ | 1/7/2017 | Revski

[silverleaf]

Did you read the report I posted.
Stop with the comments about navy reporting and facts.
Read the report. Read McCains own biography. Compare them.
Then get back to me.
Or not.
At the very very least it rings strong bullshit alarm bells that a jr officer would leave his ship and go on R&R while it was still burning.
The only man on the Forrestal to do so.
No officer I know would see that as normal behavior.
And a lot of discussion these days is trying to figure out McCains abnormal behavior

[rlmorel]

For me, I really have absolutely zero capability to evaluate either of those things on him, even in retrospect. I was a measly Airman Apprentice spending a few months at a training squadron before going on to the Fleet.

I think I might have been a little different than many of the guys there with me in that squadron, because knew who McCain was before I joined the Navy, when I was a kid as a military brat living in Yokosuka and Subic. We were all tied in to the POW situation, and we knew of his father as CINCPAC, and also were aware when his son got shot down. We had the POW wrist bracelets, and when some of them flew into Andrews AFB, we were part of the crowd to meet them.

So, I knew who McCain was, and I found him on observation to be completely flat, almost a husk of a man. Never said anything or addressed the squadron that I remember. He did an inspection once where we were all lined up outside the hanger, and he came up to each man looked him over briefly, and went to the next man. I saw him say something inaudible to one guy down the line from me, it sounded mumbled.

And his hair was snow white, not right for his age, and a bit longish for someone in his position. And he had very dark eyes.

But the thing that stuck with me most was one time I went up the administrative part of the hangar where the offices and such were, and it was in the middle of the day with no lights on in the passageway. lit by the windows at each end so it was kind of dim in the middle. And this was a big hangar, so it seemed really far when came up the steps and looked down the hallway.

There was someone standing at the scuttlebutt about 3/4 of the way down, and as I approached, he remained motionless the whole time. When I got close enough, I realized it was McCain, and he was just standing there with the water running, looking at it.

Now, I know when I turn on a water fountain, I let it run to make sure the water is as cold as possible before I drink. But I was probably 20 feet from him before he bent and drank.

It seemed to me he was completely zoned out there, looking at the water. I didn’t then, but now I often wonder if that was a holdover from being a POW when you had to ask for water, and they would give you warm, crappy, nasty water. Here he was, only a couple of years out, holding down a lever watching crisp, clean, cold water run out, as much as you want, whenever you want.

I abhor and dislike his politics. I wouldn’t give up in my neutral view of him for a long time, until one Freeper gently and considerately sent me a FreepMail and set me straight. He wasn’t nasty, and I got the impression he understood my mindset. In retrospect it is several things:

1.) My loyalty (which occasionally for me isn’t a virtue, but becomes a vice instead and works against me) to a Naval Officer (not necessarily McCain in particular) and the Naval Service.

2.) My knowledge and appreciation of the sacrifices made by our POWs

3.) My Naval upbringing and service, which instilled in me an unconscious appreciation of chain of command, protocol and tradition.

All three of these got in the way of my being able to condemn McCain the politician. I owe that Freeper a debt of gratitude. Sometimes when people come right at me, I dig my heels in and fight. This guy just communicated evenly and personally. I appreciated that.

[rlmorel]

That’s okay. I am just going to let it go, Silverleaf. Nothing personal.

[cva66snipe]

Yes... and, according to some, he was busy causing the deadly disaster through deliberate recklessness... which was then covered up thanks to his familial Admirals.

This is likely one of the most regularly investigated rumors and folklore about McCain's role in the fire. The errant missile was launched starboard aft from a plane facing port forward into McCain's area. The missile crossed to port side {width of the flightdeck} forward into McCain's and another pilot CMDR White IIRC aircraft. All of this happened aft of the aft catapults. The flightdeck activity up to, during, and after the fire is on film several cameras which would show positioning {spotting} of aircraft which was determined by one several ranks above him before the fire. Once it hit McCain got out and tried to save Commander White IIRC and then dove into the catwalk and into the ship. That would be protocol as well. No wrong done.

Every enlistee and every sailor will likely see that footage every single time they go to Fire Fighting School or in Damage Control Training.

I was a horrid fire and many heros whom mainly dues to miscommunications {lacking of} and limited at that time equipment made some critical errors even in acts of valor. That fire changed Navy Firefighting Protocols and fire fighting equipment systems including the installation of HI-CAPP stations on carriers flightdecks and hanger bays to instantly foam the decks in event of fire. These guys were doing that manually which required a bucket brigade for the buckets of foam.

I dislike McCain's political antics and pretty much dislike him as a person but he had nothing to do with the cause of that fire as it was impossible. WIKI the fire and look at the aircraft spotting chart where what planes were placed where. There were several major fires 3 I think on carriers within an 18 month time frame. There was no cover up and the raw footage shows it. How can there be a cover up when hundreds of thousands have seen the evidence saying otherwise? The Air Boss and the Aviation Bosuns determine plane spotting and launch order not the pilot.

[alternatives?]

Thanks for the good summary.

[virgil283]

Thanks for this post.

For those whom want to know the actual story of the fire aboard CVA-59, please read "Sailors to the End: The Deadly Fire on the USS Forrestal and the Heroes Who Fought It".

It is much more interesting that what some people are saying here.

[rlmorel]

Yes, I saw it as well. Hard lessons, learned in blood. And it left an impression. You might be of the same generation...did you see "The Man from LOX"?

Most guys I knew really remembered it because of the ending. We were all young guys, and times were different (They could never, ever make a training film like this today) so we all appreciated this:

Girl: "Hi Sailor...want to go to the beach?"

Sailor: "I can't go now, I have to get this cart back, or the Safety Officer is gonna have my ass."

Then, when he gets it back, the Safety Officer notices he got it back in good order:

Safety Officer: "Sailor..."

Safety Officer: "...I'm gonna have your ass!"

So, yeah. That dangled the hook, made us all snicker, and laugh, but when they showed that horribly burned guy at the end, nobody laughed, and everyone remembered the lesson: Don't mess with LOX.

[virgil283]

o7jimmy, I like your rendition of “Pass Me Not Oh Gentle Savior,”. It was with great feeling . Thank You. Virgil.

[rlmorel]

Yes...great book, probably the best on the subject. Gives a good understanding of what went on. For me, the most startling part that I didn’t know about was their conundrum of what to do with the huge storage tank of liquid oxygen right under the flight deck back near the port quarter (if I recall correctly)

If the fires had reached that, we might well have lost the ship. They were helpless, and that poor guy who stayed in there the entire time! Apparently, one of the lessons learned was that they changed the design of that and all future ships to be able to jettison the entire thing on rails though a hatch cut in the hull in case of an uncontrollable fire.

[rlmorel]

Yes. Great feeling.

[Blood of Tyrants]

I remember that film. The burned guy stuck in my memory.

[rlmorel]

I would think that is pretty good advice no matter your station in life, in or out of the military.

Trust the people who actually know and do the job to let them help you instead of forcing your will on them.

[rlmorel]

Ridiculous..."Heh, my girlfriend can do that!"

[rlmorel]

Gad, do you feel like this happens every time one of these threads comes up?

[cva66snipe]

Gad, do you feel like this happens every time one of these threads comes up?

Yeah.Same rumors same conspiracies. One point in it. "IF" McCain had in fact left the ship it would not have been for reasons assumed. After a fire of any seriousness those closely involved will be taken aside and have a nice long talk with what was in the day called NIS. Separating ones who may have witnessed events and doing interviews before it can be discussed {contaminated} with others makes for a more clear investigation. As for leaving the Flight Deck and going below? He would have went to his assigned GQ station and awaited orders. In his case a Ready Room.

Something else to consider that's kinda harsh but to the point. Enlisted are the primary Fire Fighters onboard ship not officers and especially not pilots the Navy has invested perhaps millions into. Officers including ships company were generally found in more secured spaces during emergencies.

I was first on scene in the Fire Dept on my ship for a storeroom fire which involved several decks. I also with a shipmate in my division who was also TAD to the fire department discovered it. NIS ask specific questions not as such to accuse but to find the cause. NIS actually held a class with us about spotting fire bugs on ship.

You're right about the O2N2 plant. People fear nukes that were kept on carries when in truth the LOX Plant was a disaster waiting to happen. The guys that ran it on my ship were MM's from my division.

[rlmorel]

"...Something else to consider that's kinda harsh but to the point. Enlisted are the primary Fire Fighters onboard ship not officers and especially not pilots the Navy has invested perhaps millions into. Officers including ships company were generally found in more secured spaces during emergencies..."

More to the point, if you don't have any business on the flight deck, you aren't supposed to be up there. If McCain didn't have a plane, you are right, he would have been expected to go below.

Granted, in an event like that, they would have needed all the swinging dicks they could get, but it still would have been mostly enlisted. As you said, it is part hard economics.

Your post was excellent.

[Revski]

Thanks for your comment and I would like to say when I got home from all that on the Forrestal my father hugged me and I think it was the first time that I could remember. My father was a honest man and a good provider but never showed a lot hugs and stuff.

[Revski]

Yes and Amen. They done what it took to get most of us home.

[Revski]

Yes and thanks to aircraft in the photo is of HVAH 11 my outfit out of NAS Sanford Fl..

[Revski]

Thanks a million. :)