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In Massive Blow To California Unions, A Second Court Rules That Pension Benefits Can Be Reduced
Zerohedge ^ | 1/5/17 | Tyler Durden

Posted on 01/05/2017 10:03:08 AM PST by OregonRancher

Back in September, we noted that, in a surprisingly logical decision particularly for a state like California which is typically devoid of all reason, a court upheld the rights of Marin County (and it's taxpayers) to reduce final year salary levels utilized to calculate pension payments. The ruling was meant to protect taxpayers against "salary spiking," a practice whereby union employees artificially drive up their final year salary, by taking cash vacation payouts or 1x bonus payments for example, in an effort to game the annual pension payment they'll then receive in perpetuity.

Now, according to Pension & Investments, a second California court in San Francisco has made a similar ruling, finding that while a public employee does have a "vested right" to a pension it is only to a "reasonable pension."

A second California appeals court panel has said that vested pension rights can be reduced or eliminated in California as long as employees still receive a pension that is “substantial” and “reasonable,” court filings show.

The Dec. 30 decision by a three-member panel in San Francisco affirmed a state pension reform law that went into effect in 2013 and eliminated the right of participants of the $302.4 billion California Public Employees' Retirement System, Sacramento, to enhance their pension by buying retirement credits. A lower court in Alameda County in 2015 had ruled that the pension enhancement benefits could be eliminated.

The enhanced benefit, known as an airtime service credit, allowed CalPERS participants to increase their retirement benefit by up to five years by making additional contributions from their salary.

Meanwhile, the San Francisco court cited the Marin Country decision from August which found that employees have a right to a pension but "not an immutable entitlement to the most optimal formula of calculating the pension." The August decision in Marin County was pivotal because, for the first time, it brought into question a 5-decade California rule which held that pension benefits could not be cut.

The panel cited another state appeals court's decision in August, which said the $2.1 billion Marin County Employees' Retirement Association, San Rafael, did not have to count pay given to employees for being on an on-call status toward retirement benefits.

That decision also cited the 2013 pension reform law, which applies not only to CalPERS but to most other public pension systems in California.

The law put in place anti-spiking provisions that prevent pension benefit increases from unused vacation and leave, bonuses, terminal pay, among other things.

These “anti-spiking” provisions apply to current workers.

“While a public employee does have a 'vested right' to a pension, that right is only to a 'reasonable' pension — not an immutable entitlement to the most optimal formula of calculating the pension,” the appeals panel wrote in August.

That decision put into question the so-called California rule, which held for five decades that pension benefits could not be cut.

The California Supreme Court has agreed to hear an appeal on the Marin County case, although no schedule has yet been set for oral arguments.

* * *

For those who missed it, below is our note on a previous California court's decision regarding a Marin County public pension.

Many public employees utilize a tool, known as "salary spiking," to boost their annual pensions payment in retirement and we taxpayers get to foot the bill. So what is "salary spiking?" Typically, a public employee's pension benefit in retirement is equal to some percentage of their highest annual pay which is often their final year on the job. Fortunately for public employees who plan ahead, there are all sorts of fun games that can be played to "spike" your final year salary so that you actually earn more in retirement than you did on the job. In fact, a recent report by the Los Angeles Times found that there are 60 ways to "spike" your final year salary in California including taking cash payouts for accrued vacation time, special 1x bonuses related to graduate degrees (though we're sure you really needed that extra degree as you head off into retirement), "longevity" bonuses, etc.

One example of salary spiking comes from former Ventura County CEO, Marty Robinson, who offered up a textbook example of how to stick it to taxpayers by planning ahead. Robinson's official salary heading into her final year on the job was $228,000. That said, Robinson "spiked" her final year salary by cashing out $34,000 in unused vacation pay, taking an $11,000 bonus for a graduate degree and collecting more than $24,000 in extra pension benefits the county owed her. Adding all the 1x payments, Robinson earned nearly $300,000 in her final year which entitled her to an annual pension payment of $272,000 or the rest of her life...nearly 20% higher than the salary she received for actually working.

But, as the Los Angeles Times pointed out, Robinson is not alone:

Former Sheriff Bob Brooks, for instance, added a $30,500 "longevity" bonus (for working more than 30 years), which boosted his pension to $272,000 a year, almost 20% higher than his base salary.

Former Undersheriff Craig Husband added nearly $92,600 in unused vacation time, resulting in a $257,997-a-year pension, nearly 30% above his working pay.

Fire Capt. T.N. Roberts, for instance, padded his final year's pay by nearly $130,000, resulting in a pension 84% higher than his base compensation. He gets $159,598 a year in retirement pay.

In fact, the problem is pervasive. In Ventura County, 84% of the retirees receiving more than $100,000 a year are receiving more than they did on the job. In Kern County, 77% of retirees with pensions greater than $100,000 a year are getting more now than they did before.

Well, turns out that the party might be over for the "salary spikers" in California. In a surprisingly logical decision, particularly for a state like California which is typically devoid of all reason, a court upheld the rights of Marin County (and it's taxpayers) to reduce final year salary levels utilized to calculate pension payments. According to Bloomberg, the court found that while a public employee does have a "vested right" to a pension it is only to a "reasonable pension."

“While a public employee does have a ’vested right’ to a pension, that right is only to a ’reasonable’ pension-- not an immutable entitlement to the most optimal formula of calculating the pension.”

Of course the Marin Association of Public Employees intends to take their fight to the Supreme Court in an effort to defend their right to manipulate pension benefits and defraud taxpayers of billions.

As we've noted multiple times, public pension funds around the country are currently underfunded by about $2 trillion. The under-funding has ballooned materially since the "great recession" as asset returns have suffered while pension liabilities have grown due to lower discount rates.

Pension Underfunding

Meanwhile, taxpayers have been forced to cover the difference through higher contributions while employee contributions have remained fairly flat.

Pension Contributions

We eagerly await the next court's decision on this topic and wish the best to California taxpayers.

California Public Employees' Retirement System ETC Recession

51,095 189

Comment viewing options Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes. whatamaroon's picture whatamaroon Jan 4, 2017 6:48 PM

Damn their bad luck. Haha froze25's picture froze25 whatamaroon Jan 4, 2017 6:55 PM

I do have a problem with this. People take these jobs based on payment and benefits. For example someone may of had an opportunity to go into the private sector but declined because they already had 9 years in aND need 10 to be "vested". Had they known their retirement pension wouldn't be what they were told it would be they probably would of made a different choice. This is BS.

Let's say I put out a job add and say it pays 10 bucks an hour and the going rate is 20 but after 30 years of service you get 500,000. So you take the job, do the 30 years only to be told, "hey you knew we were just kidding about that 500,000 right?" That's fraud. Gromit's picture Gromit froze25 Jan 4, 2017 6:57 PM

It's not sensible to believe that taxpayers can support pension payments at the "guaranteed " amounts.

Taxpayers cannot support this burden - by property tax increase or otherwise-

without drastically diminishing the values of the investments held by the Pension Plans theselves.

froze25's picture froze25 Gromit Jan 4, 2017 7:02 PM

8 yrs of 0 percent by the federal Reserve will have that affect. It's not reasonable to lie to the workers either. Not the military or civil servants. Anyway if Trump is successful this will be a non issue. Handful of Dust's picture Handful of Dust froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:08 PM

I agree. That zero COLA really hurt alot of people also esp seniors as the price of essentials soared. Bush and Obama are very very bad people for many reasons. This is just one more reason. Stuck on Zero's picture Stuck on Zero Handful of Dust Jan 4, 2017 7:45 PM

How cool. State employees could invest in a certain ~30% annual return on investment from a pension system that requires an 8% return on it's investments from a system that will likely deliver -50% soon. Something wrong here? jcaz's picture jcaz Stuck on Zero Jan 4, 2017 8:21 PM

It's called "Stabilizing the Ponzi"- happens right before it all goes boom.

The sooner the traditional pension fraud is exposed, the better- along with making those people responsible for promising above-market returns are possible every year in conservative investments forever actually accountable, and that's everyone from the Board of Regents down to the investment managers. eatthebanksters's picture eatthebanksters jcaz Jan 4, 2017 9:09 PM

This is just one of the first steps of California's long road back to conservatism. When the benefits from the Trump administration stop for the Sanctuary cities and the state loses 25% of its operating budget, when the welfare costs go through the roof, when the number of illegals who vote is reduced, and when California raises its already top tax bracket because there are no tech IPO's on the horizon, well that should help complete the conversion. Only when the state is broke and imploding will people cometo their senses and vonte conservative, like they did 30 years ago. Fudomyo's picture Fudomyo jcaz Jan 4, 2017 9:18 PM

I remember feeling like a complete sucker building my own business for 30 years, working my butt off day and night, only to see a bunch of lard ass civil servants retiring in their 50's with even fatter pensions as my taxes and workload increased to break even.

Screw them. Working Americans got shafted with a Shatner style divorce settlement so these lazy bums who were overpaid for their "service" get a free ride until they die. Don't just cut the pensions, claw back the graft that was structured into them.

rccalhoun's picture rccalhoun Fudomyo Jan 4, 2017 11:08 PM

tyler---what is froze IP addy? you enjoy myself's picture you enjoy myself Fudomyo Jan 4, 2017 11:17 PM

Seriously. It's truly a punch to the gut when you realize that, unless you had a really successful exit, you probably would have been better off as a clock-punching local govt employee. There's not a single govt employee who's worked for 20+ years that's worth less than $1M. And unless you're a cop in a bad area, true stress is unknown to you. Meat Hammer's picture Meat Hammer you enjoy myself Jan 4, 2017 11:58 PM

Yup. I know a state worker fucktard who's dumb as a brick and lazy as shit, but nepotism got him a cushy state job, otherwise he'd probably be homeless. Instead, he goes to Starbucks twice a day and eats out for lunch everyday.

Talk about draining the swamp, start with civil "servants". CheapBastard's picture CheapBastard Meat Hammer Jan 5, 2017 12:06 AM

"All of you are just a bunch of angry white men!"

~ the wookie Déjà view's picture Déjà view CheapBastard Jan 5, 2017 6:22 AM

N.Y. 'Extort' Authority...

Thirteen agency police officers received more in salary, overtime and other payments in that period than did Executive Director Patrick Foye, whose annual salary is $289,000.

http://archive.northjersey.com/news/overtime-bonanza-at-port-authority-1...

A police lieutenant at the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey retired in 2013 with an annual salary of $129,000, and then began collecting a pension of $172,000. An assistant airport operations manager retired at a salary of $89,000, but soon began collecting a pension of $103,000. An electrician quit with a base salary of $76,000 and started collecting a pension of $79,000.

http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/06/port_authority_should_replac... Xena fobe's picture Xena fobe Meat Hammer Jan 5, 2017 8:03 AM

They all are. Umh's picture Umh Handful of Dust Jan 4, 2017 7:47 PM

I remember people buying homes at outrageous prices and interest rates in the 1980s and counting on inflation to make everything work out. aliens is here's picture aliens is here froze25 Jan 4, 2017 9:45 PM

Fed will jack up the rate to ruin Trump then it'll be 24/7 on MSM blaming him but I know Trump is smart so he won't let it happen. HedgeJunkie's picture HedgeJunkie aliens is here Jan 5, 2017 2:44 AM

It'll happen, and he'll be blind-sided. Xena fobe's picture Xena fobe froze25 Jan 5, 2017 12:28 AM

When taxpayers homes are seized for tax lien sales because taxes are too high for a private sector worker to support, will you be satisfied then? Civil servant? More like RICO criminal. Handful of Dust's picture Handful of Dust froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:01 PM

When I was in Cali visiting a friend we looked at some houses for sale for fun and were shocked when we met this 54 year fireman who was buying a $1.4 million house for cash as if it were nothing. Pretty crazy place imo. I figured the State had to have alot of scams to have people buying these $1 million + places like hotcakes.

Where I live firemen can only buy half million dollar houses.

Kids need to think carefully what profession/job they take these days. Things ain't the same. Family docs struggle 16 hour days to take home $125k while some gubmint employees walk away easily with $100k+ with little education or skills. froze25's picture froze25 Handful of Dust Jan 4, 2017 7:05 PM

I agree, but you restructure the terms for the new hires not screw the people that are old and just retired that planned on that income. chiquita's picture chiquita froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:20 PM

Wait a just a minute--these people who are padding their pensions are the ones who are the problem. They shouldn't have planned on that type of retirement income--they didn't earn that much. They cheated the system--albeit through loopholes--and they had to know sooner or later it would be cut off. This is public taxpayer money. These people who padded their pensions to bump them up like this are basically thieves. Make them pay the money back--that would be the more painful thing than just cutting their pensions back. Similar things happened in other states and were stopped fairly quickly. How it went on so long in California is ridiculous. Continuing it doesn't make it okay just because these people "counted on it". Look at all the pension funds that have gone belly up and how many funds could still potentially go belly up, both public and private. Do you think anyone is going to give a fuck about any of those so-called old people? Think again. froze25's picture froze25 chiquita Jan 4, 2017 7:26 PM

I agree with you that when you find school super intendants making 250000+ a year in retirement it tends to kill the system. But we know joe blow who is getting 40,000 is the one going to be screwed. mkkby's picture mkkby froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:37 PM

A *reasonable* pension for what these useless imbeciles provided is a piece of green paper that says fuck you.

None of them, ever, should get more than the equivalent social security benefit -- and only when they turn 65 like everyone else. chiquita's picture chiquita mkkby Jan 4, 2017 8:05 PM

I'm never sure whether to be in awe or annoyed when I hear about people who have multiple pensions, meaning they worked two to three different "careers" to earn full pensions, especially if they manage to retire a little early. Often the original pension for these individuals is from the military, so that's nothing to begrudge, but when all of the pensions are from civil service or tax payer funded (like teaching) jobs, it's a little off putting. jcaz's picture jcaz froze25 Jan 4, 2017 8:36 PM

Clearly, you're someone who is benefitting from this fraud, and you're try to appease your conscience or whatever by defending this bullshit;

Ain't gonna fly here.

It's called "Market Force"- when a market is finally free to seek its own true level, garbage such as this fraudulent pension Ponzi will be flushed;

Yes, you will feel pain. That's your feeling of entitlement going away- it's healthy.

Once it's all settled out, focus on building or creating something of value, rather than focusing on existing on the ignorance and corruption of a system- you'll never have to come onto a message board and defend your losing point of view ever again.

As we in the real world like to say- "Oh well- shit happens". buzzkillb's picture buzzkillb jcaz Jan 5, 2017 3:06 AM

The best I have seen is forced early retirement. And then the position is not fillable because only 1 person knows to do that job. So what does LA County do? Hire the newly minted pensioner back on as a consultant for much more money. RopeADope's picture RopeADope froze25 Jan 4, 2017 10:10 PM

Actually when Jerry Brown became governor again he tried to go after this time of behavior. From what I remember there was a city somewhere near Palm Springs that had all of the officials in on the scam that was the example given by Brown.

Another example is the City of Bell (Excerpt follows from wiki):

From documents released to the Los Angeles Times reported that the California Public Employees' Retirement System (aka CalPERS) knew four years previously that Rizzo had received a 47% pay increase to $442,000. Then California Attorney General Jerry Brown maintained that a "47% increase in salary should have set off alarm bells. CalPERS should have told someone, and the attorney general's office would have been a good place to start"[23]"These outrageous salaries in Bell are shocking and beyond belief," said Brown, whose office is investigating. "With record deficits and painful budget cuts facing California cities, astronomical local government salaries raise serious questions and demand a thorough investigation."[24]

The end of August 2010 ended the California legislature’s law-making season, and the bill (AB1955) that would have strictly regulated elected officials’ income levels died while in the Senate.[25] All the related bills were vetoed by Governor Schwarzenegger.[26] A piece of legislation that had passed before the legislature’s deadline, was AB1987, which would have put an end to the public employee practice of pension "Spiking", the accumulation of vacation and sick time until the end of their tenure so their retirement benefit is increased, sometimes by tens of thousands of dollars per year,[25] was also vetoed by Governor Schwarzenegger.[26] "Frankly, Bell residents need to know if their city is solvent," said Supervisor Gloria Molina, who chairs the board and whose district includes Bell. Molina said the audit, expected to cost about $100,000, was paid for out of her office's discretionary fund and at no cost to the city.

Marcia Fritz, who heads the California Foundation for Fiscal Responsibility stated that at age 62, when Rizzo could have begun receiving Social Security payments, his annual pension and benefits would have risen to $976,771, topping $1 million two years later. "This guy would be our first seven-figure retiree," said Fritz.[27] The million-dollar pension Rizzo was expecting has been reduced to about $100,000 per year, ABC News reported in December 2010. The other seven city council members have been arrested for misappropriating funds will receive similar pension cuts.[28] Meat Hammer's picture Meat Hammer froze25 Jan 5, 2017 12:01 AM

Fuck you and fucked their planned income if they got it by ripping off the people who pay it. Dipshit. knightowl77's picture knightowl77 Handful of Dust Jan 4, 2017 7:18 PM

Most of the firemen I knew adjusted their schedule and most worked 2 or 3 jobs...many were contractors/plumbers etc on the side. Others worked as private paramedics when they were off-duty. Mr. Universe's picture Mr. Universe knightowl77 Jan 4, 2017 7:33 PM

You will find most of these that take advantage of the system are those either in City/county management or Safety workers. They have wrangled the best pension contracts that the majority of other workers have no chance of receiving. First order of business is end 3% @ 50. After that most of the problems go away. Fudomyo's picture Fudomyo knightowl77 Jan 4, 2017 9:39 PM

Firemen, policemen, paramedics, are high risk professions. They earned their pay grade. It's the minions of clerks and managers pulling down 100K + a year, putting in OT to pad their pensions who are the problem. rccalhoun's picture rccalhoun Fudomyo Jan 4, 2017 11:03 PM

fireman is the easiest and most coveted job in the USA for the entitled

HedgeJunkie's picture HedgeJunkie Fudomyo Jan 5, 2017 3:01 AM

As a former voluteer fireman and volunteer EMT for the County Ambulance, I earned exactly $0 dollars. And have exactly $0 pension due. Even when I collapsed my lung giving CPR, I received $0 dollars. And when I collapsed immediately after exiting the hospital as a man had a heart attack right in front of me...$0 dollars. [CPR is strenuous, it really wears you out quick...and after giving a breathe, turn your head, the patients are like percolators...I had mouthfuls of blood and shit. Wife will attest as I wiped it out of my mouth on the tunic as I kept breathing for them.]

And, yeah, I also had two jobs at the time. DJ and Insurance Salesman...three at one point...1980's sucked ass. And a son, growing from 2-10 during that time. I started at 22. this is how we get out youth off their ass. Put real, live and death, volunteerism back into communities. Shit, we even had a couple volunteer cops in that town. svs9000's picture svs9000 froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:00 PM

well it's funded with money they take out of my check...

SO FUCK OFF WITH YOUR "ISSUE" SNOWFLAKE froze25's picture froze25 svs9000 Jan 4, 2017 7:10 PM

Your right, to hell with contract law.

Oh your 3 weeks as a member. That explains your personal attack. Richard Head's picture Richard Head froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:13 PM

Oh, you mean the contracts that were negotiated by corrupt politicians? That's bad faith from the start. Taxpayers were never fairly represented. And only dummies think that a contract is inviolate. Contracts fail to be executed or upheld for all kinds of reasons. froze25's picture froze25 Richard Head Jan 4, 2017 7:23 PM

Did the worker take the job on bad faith? This Contract was executed by the worker and the employer, the worker provided labor it was violated by the employer. Elco the Constitutionalist's picture Elco the Consti... froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:24 PM

You just appealed to contract law, fuckstick. It only takes one party in bad faith to invalidate it. Meat Hammer's picture Meat Hammer Elco the Constitutionalist Jan 5, 2017 12:05 AM

Don't waste your time arguing with a public employee. They're subhuman parasites. turnoffthewater's picture turnoffthewater froze25 Jan 4, 2017 9:58 PM

In the private sector, many contracts are written for employers, not employees. You can be released from the contract for little or no reason.

But the gobermint doesn't work that way. The gobermint law makers works on the same side as the gobermint employee, plus needs votes for reelection. Something the private sector doesn't require.

Solution: run the gobermint like the private sector. No more free f*ing handouts. If you don't perform, you out of here.

Trump: hope springs eternal, but only time will tell. decon's picture decon Richard Head Jan 4, 2017 8:02 PM

Broadly and generally, people get the representatives they deserve. whatamaroon's picture whatamaroon froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:21 PM

It is NOT contract law. Contracts are between 2 parties negotiated at arms length. These are agreements between the employer and employee. Contracts can go to litigation. Agreements are between superior and inferior. divingengineer's picture divingengineer whatamaroon Jan 4, 2017 7:23 PM

Its a Union CONTRACT.

It is in fact a contract, that a court will enforce on a worker in a heartbeat. froze25's picture froze25 divingengineer Jan 4, 2017 7:28 PM

I offer you this, you offer me that in exchange. We have a meeting of the minds and agree. A contract is formed. warpigs's picture warpigs froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:45 PM

And capacity? You forget that little dynamic? The states, clearly, did not have the capacity to pay these things out or the entire argument would not be floating around as it is. decon's picture decon warpigs Jan 4, 2017 8:03 PM

They have the capacity, it just really hurts. warpigs's picture warpigs froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:45 PM

And capacity? You forget that little dynamic? The states, clearly, did not have the capacity to pay these things out or the entire argument would not be floating around as it is. BarkingCat's picture BarkingCat froze25 Jan 5, 2017 6:19 AM

Not when you vote for politicians who get into office and then take from me via force to give you a portion of that loot.

Fuck you!!! You knew you were a leach on society's ass when you agreed to that "contract" and that the taxpayer was getting screwed. Inzidious's picture Inzidious froze25 Jan 4, 2017 7:27 PM

So because some greedy politician set up ridiculous grossly (near criminal?) over generous pay plans in order to secure votes from entitled public sector unions, with zero liability or consequence to the decision, I as the 3rd party sucker who had absolutely no say in the matter am forced to pay for it, just because they wrote it down on paper?

Makes complete sense to me, yeah?


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: califpensions; pensions; spike; unions
About time
1 posted on 01/05/2017 10:03:08 AM PST by OregonRancher
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To: OregonRancher

They can argue that they were following the rules, but the rules as set up are a con game.


2 posted on 01/05/2017 10:04:35 AM PST by Mr. K ( Trump kicked her ass 2-to-1 if you remove all the voter fraud.)
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To: OregonRancher

This in a nutshell is WHY the public employee unions here in Pennsylvania ambushed us in an off-year election (by offering CASH PRIZES to voters in Philadelphia!) in order to pack our State Supreme Court with screaming leftists.

For the next decade you can be sure that any such cases filed here will go 100% the unions’ way.


3 posted on 01/05/2017 10:09:03 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: OregonRancher

The problem with the retirement deals AS A CONTRACT is that you had government employees unions negotiating with government employees about government employees benefits...

Anyone else see a problem with that?


4 posted on 01/05/2017 10:09:03 AM PST by Mr. K ( Trump kicked her ass 2-to-1 if you remove all the voter fraud.)
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To: OregonRancher

Nothing like changing the rules ex post facto to convince workers that their contracts with employers are mere scraps of paper.


5 posted on 01/05/2017 10:10:15 AM PST by BenLurkin (The above is not a statement of fact. It is either satire or opinion. Or both.)
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To: OregonRancher

Live by government, die by government.


6 posted on 01/05/2017 10:13:23 AM PST by WMarshal ( Schadenfreude, it feels so good!)
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To: OregonRancher

Pension benefits have been “gamed” for decades. It’s just one of the reasons most are broke.


7 posted on 01/05/2017 10:20:07 AM PST by 1Old Pro
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To: BenLurkin

Government unions are the reason pensions got out of control.


8 posted on 01/05/2017 10:26:58 AM PST by hoosierham (Freedom isn't free)
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To: OregonRancher

Well duh. Easy come easy go. Your government bureaucratic jobs should not provide better than private jobs do. Government employees have _no_ right to form unions and make group demands on government. It is a privilege to serve the public...


9 posted on 01/05/2017 10:28:04 AM PST by veracious
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To: hoosierham
Government unions are the reason pensions got out of control.

The math never worked. You need close to 4 MILLION in a 401k to equal what a cop gets from age 50 - 85 plus his health benefits.

10 posted on 01/05/2017 10:31:24 AM PST by 1Old Pro
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To: Mr. K
The problem with the retirement deals AS A CONTRACT is that you had government employees unions negotiating with government employees about government employees benefits There is is.

It's like having the collusive biased lying media who are de facto opponents of Trump, moderate political debates.

Corrupt to the core.

11 posted on 01/05/2017 10:35:18 AM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: dragnet2

Pension benefits grossly in excess of averaged work pay are ridiculous.

And by averaged I mean over the total years worked and adjusted for inflation.Similar to Social Security pensions.

If paid out at similar rates to SS the pension plans wouldn’t be in dire straits.


12 posted on 01/05/2017 11:00:46 AM PST by hoosierham (Freedom isn't free)
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To: Mr. K

Outlaw public sector unions, then fire all their members. Start over from scratch.


13 posted on 01/05/2017 11:01:22 AM PST by Beagle8U (Long live Yoga Pants!)
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To: hoosierham

In CA it’s obscene.

CA city, county, and state government employees retire with so much money, once they retire they move to other states and drive the prices of homes up to the point where those who are actually from these places, can’t afford to buy anything.


14 posted on 01/05/2017 11:28:43 AM PST by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Mr. K

“The problem with the retirement deals AS A CONTRACT is that you had government employees unions negotiating with government employees about government employees benefits...

Anyone else see a problem with that?”

They must have had endless heated arguments about just how much they could get away with and still fly under the radar.

These retirement salaries are OBSCENE.


15 posted on 01/05/2017 12:22:16 PM PST by USMCPOP (Father of LCpl. Karl Linn, KIA 1/26/2005 Al Haqlaniyah, Iraq)
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To: Mr. K

Thats government taking care of government. Good response to union scum


16 posted on 01/05/2017 1:34:07 PM PST by Luigi Vasellini (End the political class.......TERM LIMITS NOW!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: Luigi Vasellini

http://graphics.wsj.com/table/Connecticut_102015

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewbiggs/2016/07/01/are-state-and-local-government-pensions-underfunded-by-5-trillion/2/#57a2e3ae28c2


17 posted on 01/05/2017 2:44:02 PM PST by OregonRancher (Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints)
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To: OregonRancher

All these Government Pensions are Mathematical Impossibilities to fulfill, There is NOT enough Money to fulfill these Contracts and there never will be,

think of the chessboard and the grain of rice story, that is our Government Pension System in a Nutshell.they should be Voided on their face as being Fraudulent.

They can ALL COLLECT SOCIAL SECURITY


18 posted on 01/05/2017 2:52:42 PM PST by eyeamok (destruction of government records.)
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To: eyeamok

Read “Plunder” by Steven Greenhut. You have to read this sitting and with a drink. What he exposes is so beyond what you might expect, it’d downright sickening.

https://www.amazon.com/Plunder-Employee-Treasuries-Controlling-Bankrupting/dp/0984275207/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483658322&sr=1-4&keywords=Plunder


19 posted on 01/05/2017 3:47:26 PM PST by OregonRancher (Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints)
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To: OregonRancher

.
This should please Contra Costa County Firefighters too!

Dozens of them are making twice their normal pay in retirement.
.


20 posted on 01/05/2017 3:53:00 PM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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