Skip to comments.Who is right: Ron Paul or the Obama administration (on Crimean & E. Ukranian self-determination)?
Posted on 03/11/2014 12:56:49 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
Ron Paul has basically said that Crimea has the right to self-determination and by extension a right to an independence referendum vote.
The Obama administration seems to be goading Europe (not that it would take that much) into agreeing with it that Crimea (and Eastern Ukraine) do not have the right to self-determination, and that Western powers will not accept a referendum vote in Crimea (or Eastern Ukraine for that matter) that leads to Crimea joining Russia, or becoming independent.
Margeurite, yesterday, nailed it on the head, though, in a thread of mine:
"The West cannot have it both ways. They can't say, for example, that the right of Albanians to self-determination in Kosovo trumps Serbia's right to territorial integrity, and then turn around and say that Ukraine's right to territorial integrity trumps the right of Russians in Crimea to self-determination."
And to add to the mix, what if Eastern Ukraine wants to exert self-determination...join with Russia? What about Moldava?
Will Obama and his administration (and Europe for that matter) declare Kosovo independence null-and-void?
Ron Paul to Obama: "Check and mate."
What say you?
Nope. The U.S. laid down its marker and stance with Kosovo.
I say we should invite Crimea to apply for Statehood in the USA.
That’ll fix ‘er
By saying what I did, what happened in Kosovo (and the stance that the U.S. and Europe took) has come back to bite the U.S. and Europe in the behind.
BTW, glad to see you posts again. :)
Oops, meant “your.”
We lost the moment Obama downgraded our military capability while stepping up the meddling in other people’s business. Not much we can do about this in the short-term. The major damage has already been done. Need to start rebuilding our military might and our standing in the world. Obama is a weak-ass punk, don’t trust the libertarian mindset.
Do it like what was done with Nova Scotia. Let Crimea choose to be independent, part of Canada, part of Great Briton, or part of the US, with a change their mind clause.
We have to remember that the whole Yugoslav breakup was a multi ethnic nightmare without a dominant outside power. I think it was a pretty unique setup and, remember, Russia was a basket case are the time. The Ukraine seems to be everyone against the numerous Russians. The ethnic areas aren’t nearly as well defined as Yugoslavia was.
The Kosovo precedent was an earth-shattering change in international law, and will have effects for decades if not centuries.
Crimea won’t be the last to follow this precedent, it’s just the beginning.
At some point the world will have to reexamine the issue and decide whether both provinces have the right to self determination or neither do. Can’t have it both ways.
Yeah, I can see where you are coimg from.
But I can see, too, that Clinton put us in a pickle. Obama is meddling, downsizing, but will either make us look the hypocrite as a nation, or will make us look weak. There is a lot about Ron Paul and pure libertarian that I don’t like, but he seems to have Obama on this one...
Either way, in the end, I think most Americans don’t really care if Crimea votes to join Russia...
I want Obama to do what he’s best at and most qualified for.
LOL ! Just like Quebec blah blah and so on... It's not like Quebec, Putin's propagandists are “forgetting” that France hadn't really landed thousands of troops in Quebec, didn't put their puppet as a head of local government, didn't mass 150k troops next to Canadian border and no, France didn't pass a special bill allowing them to absorb Quebec with one simple administrative decision. Actually France was not involved at all.
BTW Putin hadn't given a damn about locals in Crimea and their right to self-determination until his puppet “President” of Ukraine was kicked out.
“The West cannot have it both ways. They can't say, for example, that the right of Albanians to self-determination in Kosovo trumps Serbia's right to territorial integrity”
So why Ukraine should pay for Kosovo nonsense ?
How about something a little closer to home?
Can California hold a referendum to secede from the US and join Mexico?
Or how about if the USA turns into a totalitarian leftist nightmare, does Texas have the right to become independent?
There are pros and cons of either choice, saying that provinces have the right to self determination or do not.
But a choice needs to be made and it needs to be consistent.
There are provinces all over the world that would love to split off.
You forget, the Kosovo Albanians are moozlims. Moozlims have special rights other people don't have.
You have a valid point about Texas. However, the equivalent would be the following:
What if Mexico moves 20 million people into Texas, and holds a referendum for Texas to join Mexico.
Russia moved people/troops/infrastructure in, and is forcing a region to vote to join them.
It’s a hostile takeover/invasion of a region.
ie, it’s not Kosovo, it’s Kuwait.
On this matter I stand with Ron Paul snd Putin. I stand against Ted Cruz.
The only reason that there are so many Russians in Crimea is because Stalin murdered or deported the natives and imported Russians. To pretend that this genocide has some legitimacy is nonsense. Having said that, there is little that the US can do about the region.
Ditto U.S. Government vs American Indians.
Wow Ron Paul or Barack Obama.
Now there is a no win choice!
“The only reason that there are so many Russians in Crimea is because Stalin murdered or deported the natives and imported Russians. “
Do the majority Russians in Crimea have any less of a right to self determination than anyone else? Crimea has been part of Russia since 1793, only being part of an independent Ukraine for the last 20 years.
Kosovo also had large Demographic relocations, with Germany moving lots of Albanians in under WWII rule, Tito moving large numbers of Serbs out. Does that mean the votes of the people there shouldn’t have counted?
You can do this exercise for many other countries. The original inhabitants of Turkey were not Turkish, with large numbers of Armenians and Greeks being genocided and pushed out.
So what’s your call, do provinces have the right to self determination or no?
It’s up to the people of each region. It’s not our place to tell people who they should align with or if the want independence or not. What makes US the arbiter of these things?
Russia already had people/troops/infrastructure there from way back. Most of the people of Crimea are culturally Russian and speak Russian. If they want to be independent, who are we to say yes or no?
Who appointed us the decider?
Are you kidding?
Russia just invaded a sovereign country. They were not ‘troops from way back’. If they are so proud of what they are doing why invade a country without insignia? Why invade without all markings on uniforms and trucks?
Most of Crimea is not Russian, they are mostly non-Russian Tatars and Ukrainian.
A country cannot simply invade, and hold a referendum. If that was the case, world’s borders would change overnight. Neither we nor Russia decides, Ukraine decides via it’s constitution.
Who is Russia to decide what a country’s borders are?
Does a country have a right to invade another country, move in it’s own people and force a referendum to join it because it likes it’s military bases?
There were tens of thousands of Russian troops already stationed there and many Russian military (mostly Navy) outposts there. Russia already had a huge military presence there by agreement.
I agree Russia should not be the ones calling for a referendum. The Crimean should call for that and decide if they want Russia to leave or not.
Similarly, the Germans could call for a referendum and decide if they want all American military out of their country.
In any case, it is not OUR CALL, which is my main point. Everyone acts as if it is our call and it is not.
Wnat’s your answer for Kosovo?
That’s the international law precedent set for the whole world. This is the topic and question at hand, so why not answer it?
It’s a mirror image of the question we face with Crimea, and dozens of other provinces around the whole world.
The issue will not end with Crimea, there will be more provinces in the future that follow this precedent.
“Most of Crimea is not Russian, they are mostly non-Russian Tatars and Ukrainian.”
Not true, 58% russian according to Reuters.
“They were not troops from way back.”
Russia has had military bases on Crimea continuously since 1793.
Under current treaties, Russia is allowed up to 25,000 troops in Crimea, though they are supposed to be in military bases.
From what I have read, they probably had 12,000 before the situation escalated and maybe 15-18,000 now.
“Neither we nor Russia decides, Ukraine decides via its constitution.”
I don’t know if you noticed, but the leader of the country was not replaced constitutionally. The constitution details how to expel the leader in article 112, they didn’t follow it at all.
The new interim leader on his second day rammed through a law removing the official status of minority languages. Russian had official status in 13 of 22 provinces.
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