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Who is right: Ron Paul or the Obama administration (on Crimean & E. Ukranian self-determination)?
3/11/2014 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Posted on 03/11/2014 12:56:49 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist

Ron Paul has basically said that Crimea has the right to self-determination and by extension a right to an independence referendum vote.

The Obama administration seems to be goading Europe (not that it would take that much) into agreeing with it that Crimea (and Eastern Ukraine) do not have the right to self-determination, and that Western powers will not accept a referendum vote in Crimea (or Eastern Ukraine for that matter) that leads to Crimea joining Russia, or becoming independent.

Margeurite, yesterday, nailed it on the head, though, in a thread of mine:

"The West cannot have it both ways. They can't say, for example, that the right of Albanians to self-determination in Kosovo trumps Serbia's right to territorial integrity, and then turn around and say that Ukraine's right to territorial integrity trumps the right of Russians in Crimea to self-determination."

And to add to the mix, what if Eastern Ukraine wants to exert self-determination...join with Russia? What about Moldava?

Will Obama and his administration (and Europe for that matter) declare Kosovo independence null-and-void?

Ron Paul to Obama: "Check and mate."


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: 113th; albania; catalonia; congress; crimea; elections; kosovo; obama; putin; randpaul; ronpaul; russia; scotland; tedcruz; ukraine; zero

1 posted on 03/11/2014 12:56:49 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; All

What say you?


2 posted on 03/11/2014 12:58:17 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Neither.


3 posted on 03/11/2014 12:58:20 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: Jim Robinson

Nope. The U.S. laid down its marker and stance with Kosovo.


4 posted on 03/11/2014 12:59:29 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Jim Robinson

I say we should invite Crimea to apply for Statehood in the USA.

That’ll fix ‘er


5 posted on 03/11/2014 1:01:02 PM PDT by Mr. K (If you like your constitution, you can keep it...Period.)
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To: Jim Robinson

By saying what I did, what happened in Kosovo (and the stance that the U.S. and Europe took) has come back to bite the U.S. and Europe in the behind.

BTW, glad to see you posts again. :)


6 posted on 03/11/2014 1:02:18 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Oops, meant “your.”


7 posted on 03/11/2014 1:02:50 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

We lost the moment Obama downgraded our military capability while stepping up the meddling in other people’s business. Not much we can do about this in the short-term. The major damage has already been done. Need to start rebuilding our military might and our standing in the world. Obama is a weak-ass punk, don’t trust the libertarian mindset.


8 posted on 03/11/2014 1:06:41 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Do it like what was done with Nova Scotia. Let Crimea choose to be independent, part of Canada, part of Great Briton, or part of the US, with a change their mind clause.


9 posted on 03/11/2014 1:10:26 PM PDT by pallis
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

We have to remember that the whole Yugoslav breakup was a multi ethnic nightmare without a dominant outside power. I think it was a pretty unique setup and, remember, Russia was a basket case are the time. The Ukraine seems to be everyone against the numerous Russians. The ethnic areas aren’t nearly as well defined as Yugoslavia was.


10 posted on 03/11/2014 1:13:02 PM PDT by JimSEA
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

The Kosovo precedent was an earth-shattering change in international law, and will have effects for decades if not centuries.

Crimea won’t be the last to follow this precedent, it’s just the beginning.

At some point the world will have to reexamine the issue and decide whether both provinces have the right to self determination or neither do. Can’t have it both ways.


11 posted on 03/11/2014 1:18:57 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Jim Robinson

Yeah, I can see where you are coimg from.

But I can see, too, that Clinton put us in a pickle. Obama is meddling, downsizing, but will either make us look the hypocrite as a nation, or will make us look weak. There is a lot about Ron Paul and pure libertarian that I don’t like, but he seems to have Obama on this one...

Either way, in the end, I think most Americans don’t really care if Crimea votes to join Russia...


12 posted on 03/11/2014 1:19:04 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I want Obama to do what he’s best at and most qualified for.

Nothing.


13 posted on 03/11/2014 1:20:36 PM PDT by Argus
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
“Ron Paul has basically said that Crimea has the right to self-determination and by extension a right to an independence referendum vote.”

LOL ! Just like Quebec blah blah and so on... It's not like Quebec, Putin's propagandists are “forgetting” that France hadn't really landed thousands of troops in Quebec, didn't put their puppet as a head of local government, didn't mass 150k troops next to Canadian border and no, France didn't pass a special bill allowing them to absorb Quebec with one simple administrative decision. Actually France was not involved at all.

BTW Putin hadn't given a damn about locals in Crimea and their right to self-determination until his puppet “President” of Ukraine was kicked out.

“The West cannot have it both ways. They can't say, for example, that the right of Albanians to self-determination in Kosovo trumps Serbia's right to territorial integrity”

So why Ukraine should pay for Kosovo nonsense ?

14 posted on 03/11/2014 1:21:21 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

How about something a little closer to home?

Can California hold a referendum to secede from the US and join Mexico?


15 posted on 03/11/2014 1:28:32 PM PDT by joshua c (Please dont feed the liberals)
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To: Argus
Obama is vest at and most qualified at

That's easy.

Flexibility!!

16 posted on 03/11/2014 1:31:41 PM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: joshua c

Or how about if the USA turns into a totalitarian leftist nightmare, does Texas have the right to become independent?

There are pros and cons of either choice, saying that provinces have the right to self determination or do not.

But a choice needs to be made and it needs to be consistent.

There are provinces all over the world that would love to split off.


17 posted on 03/11/2014 1:32:24 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
"The West cannot have it both ways. They can't say, for example, that the right of Albanians to self-determination in Kosovo trumps Serbia's right to territorial integrity, and then turn around and say that Ukraine's right to territorial integrity trumps the right of Russians in Crimea to self-determination."

You forget, the Kosovo Albanians are moozlims. Moozlims have special rights other people don't have.

18 posted on 03/11/2014 1:37:06 PM PDT by Hugin
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To: Mount Athos

You have a valid point about Texas. However, the equivalent would be the following:

What if Mexico moves 20 million people into Texas, and holds a referendum for Texas to join Mexico.

Russia moved people/troops/infrastructure in, and is forcing a region to vote to join them.

It’s a hostile takeover/invasion of a region.

ie, it’s not Kosovo, it’s Kuwait.


19 posted on 03/11/2014 1:49:42 PM PDT by KOZ.
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

On this matter I stand with Ron Paul snd Putin. I stand against Ted Cruz.


20 posted on 03/11/2014 1:57:52 PM PDT by impimp
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

The only reason that there are so many Russians in Crimea is because Stalin murdered or deported the natives and imported Russians. To pretend that this genocide has some legitimacy is nonsense. Having said that, there is little that the US can do about the region.


21 posted on 03/11/2014 2:15:12 PM PDT by iowamark (I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
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READ AND HEED EVERY WORD

'As Milton Friedman has said: You can’t have open borders and a welfare state. For roughly the first three centuries of America’s existence, anyone could come here – and good luck to them! If they couldn’t make it, they went home. About 30 percent did. We skimmed the cream of the world! By the time of the American Revolution, this had created something distinctive about Americans, as described absolutely beautifully by Alexis de Tocqueville’s “Democracy in America.” Even after the Democrats ginned up the welfare machinery, the country maintained the same national character and stayed largely the same demographically because our immigration policy imposed quotas to replicate the nationalities of the people already here. But in 1965, Teddy Kennedy’s immigration act intentionally changed the ethnicity of immigrants to favor those from the Third World and freeze out people from countries that had traditionally sent us our immigrants. Since the late 1970s, more than 90 percent of the immigrants to America have been from the Third World. This has led to wider income inequality, a higher crime rate, more unemployment and on and on and on.

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22 posted on 03/11/2014 2:18:45 PM PDT by jimsin
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To: iowamark
The only reason that there are so many Russians in Crimea is because Stalin murdered or deported the natives and imported Russians. To pretend that this genocide has some legitimacy is nonsense.

Ditto U.S. Government vs American Indians.

23 posted on 03/11/2014 2:19:03 PM PDT by Sirius Lee (All that is required for evil to advance is for government to do "something")
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Wow Ron Paul or Barack Obama.
Now there is a no win choice!


24 posted on 03/11/2014 2:30:39 PM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (Where can I go to sign up for the American Revolution 2014 and the Crusades 2014?)
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To: iowamark

“The only reason that there are so many Russians in Crimea is because Stalin murdered or deported the natives and imported Russians. “

Do the majority Russians in Crimea have any less of a right to self determination than anyone else? Crimea has been part of Russia since 1793, only being part of an independent Ukraine for the last 20 years.

Kosovo also had large Demographic relocations, with Germany moving lots of Albanians in under WWII rule, Tito moving large numbers of Serbs out. Does that mean the votes of the people there shouldn’t have counted?

You can do this exercise for many other countries. The original inhabitants of Turkey were not Turkish, with large numbers of Armenians and Greeks being genocided and pushed out.

So what’s your call, do provinces have the right to self determination or no?


25 posted on 03/11/2014 2:45:01 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

It’s up to the people of each region. It’s not our place to tell people who they should align with or if the want independence or not. What makes US the arbiter of these things?


26 posted on 03/11/2014 2:48:33 PM PDT by Lorianne (fedgov, taxporkmoney)
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To: KOZ.

Russia already had people/troops/infrastructure there from way back. Most of the people of Crimea are culturally Russian and speak Russian. If they want to be independent, who are we to say yes or no?

Who appointed us the decider?


27 posted on 03/11/2014 2:52:37 PM PDT by Lorianne (fedgov, taxporkmoney)
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To: Lorianne

Are you kidding?

Russia just invaded a sovereign country. They were not ‘troops from way back’. If they are so proud of what they are doing why invade a country without insignia? Why invade without all markings on uniforms and trucks?

Most of Crimea is not Russian, they are mostly non-Russian Tatars and Ukrainian.

A country cannot simply invade, and hold a referendum. If that was the case, world’s borders would change overnight. Neither we nor Russia decides, Ukraine decides via it’s constitution.

Who is Russia to decide what a country’s borders are?


28 posted on 03/12/2014 4:43:27 AM PDT by KOZ.
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To: Mount Athos

Does a country have a right to invade another country, move in it’s own people and force a referendum to join it because it likes it’s military bases?


29 posted on 03/12/2014 4:46:44 AM PDT by KOZ.
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To: KOZ.

There were tens of thousands of Russian troops already stationed there and many Russian military (mostly Navy) outposts there. Russia already had a huge military presence there by agreement.

I agree Russia should not be the ones calling for a referendum. The Crimean should call for that and decide if they want Russia to leave or not.

Similarly, the Germans could call for a referendum and decide if they want all American military out of their country.

In any case, it is not OUR CALL, which is my main point. Everyone acts as if it is our call and it is not.


30 posted on 03/12/2014 8:56:12 AM PDT by Lorianne (fedgov, taxporkmoney)
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To: KOZ.

Wnat’s your answer for Kosovo?

That’s the international law precedent set for the whole world. This is the topic and question at hand, so why not answer it?

It’s a mirror image of the question we face with Crimea, and dozens of other provinces around the whole world.

The issue will not end with Crimea, there will be more provinces in the future that follow this precedent.

“Most of Crimea is not Russian, they are mostly non-Russian Tatars and Ukrainian.”

Not true, 58% russian according to Reuters.

“They were not ‘troops from way back’.”

Russia has had military bases on Crimea continuously since 1793.

Under current treaties, Russia is allowed up to 25,000 troops in Crimea, though they are supposed to be in military bases.
From what I have read, they probably had 12,000 before the situation escalated and maybe 15-18,000 now.

“Neither we nor Russia decides, Ukraine decides via it’s constitution.”

I don’t know if you noticed, but the leader of the country was not replaced constitutionally. The constitution details how to expel the leader in article 112, they didn’t follow it at all.

The new interim leader on his second day rammed through a law removing the official status of minority languages. Russian had official status in 13 of 22 provinces.


31 posted on 03/12/2014 9:04:20 AM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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