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Coal Fired Side Wheel Aircraft Carriers during WWII
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=48962 ^ | Feb 3, 2012 | Mark Allen M

Posted on 08/27/2013 11:34:57 AM PDT by donmeaker

This idea was brought to my attention the other day and thought it a great choice for a thread. Most of us who are US Navy fans can certainly recall the Navy's efforts to train their pilots on the Great Lakes (Lake Michigan) in the early 40's during the war. This thread may give you a nice idea of what that exersize was all about. Many interesting images to study here and quite possibly of interest to those who are involved with the restoration of aircraft that have been recovered from the Lakes. I have also included a page from my dad's logbook showing his 1st thru 8th carrier landings on the USS Wolverine in July 1944. Sources are the NMNA archives, Library of Congress photo archives, LIFE image archives.

(Excerpt) Read more at warbirdinformationexchange.org ...


TOPICS: History; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: aviation; germany; godsgravesglyphs; greatlakes; history; lakemichigan; michigan; navy; sourcetitlenoturl; unitedkingdom; usswolverine; worldwareleven; wwii
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To: GeronL; centurion316; neverdem; Nachum; SunkenCiv; cogitator

Coastal defense?

Great Lakes defense?

No! For defense of the carrier against German U-boats.

The German U-boats were sinking hundreds of ships off of the East COast and Gulf coasts of the US during this period. Before that, they were winning the Battle of the Atlantic against Britian in her coastal waters.

SO, since the Germans couldn’t get to Lake Michigan, that was the place to run “practice” aircraft carriers up and down against the wind without needing aircraft, destroyers, mine-sweepers, and other escorts - AND the trained men and weapons and arms and fuel and parts to run all of those extra ships! - who were then released to do their real job protecting real warships and convoys. The practice aircraft were much slower, less highly loaded than the more modern carrier aircraft, so the lower speed of these paddle wheelers was not as important.

Also, since Lake Michigan was “deep water” almost immediately off the pier, they could begin practicing take-offs and landings almost immediately. If you leave Norfolk harbor, you need a long time to get far enough out to sea to do the high-speed runs in rougher water (on average) so you end up wasting even more time.

A simple “day trip” out from Chicago - since they didn’t need to practice night landings, was possible every day at very little expense and without burning extra fuel oil: the paddlerwheelers coal was available right at dockside, and was used by most other merchant ships even. Liberties and Victories and troop ships and military auxiliaries and landing ships and true warships were all oil-burning


21 posted on 08/27/2013 1:36:44 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE (I can only donate monthly, but socialists' ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Those trainees sure are rough on airplanes.

They lost almost 150 of them during the course of the war, along with more than a few of their pilots.

Link

22 posted on 08/27/2013 1:37:50 PM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: donmeaker

bfl


23 posted on 08/27/2013 1:47:07 PM PDT by Noob1999 (Loose Lips, Sink Ships)
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To: donmeaker

Fascinating. Until today, I did not know those ships existed.

The Japanese were so desperate for flat tops, those ships would have seen combat. Once.


24 posted on 08/27/2013 1:56:45 PM PDT by henkster (If the Feds create an unlimited demand for bastard children, you get an unlimited supply of them.)
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To: Daaave

They always turn into the wind for flight ops..but a slower speed means LESS wind over the deck for take offs..which is more dangerous, and for landing..the relative speed of the plane and the deck is greater, which is also more dangerous..


25 posted on 08/27/2013 1:59:36 PM PDT by ken5050 (2014 Tea Party Trifecta! Retire Mitch, Lamar, and Lindsey)
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To: donmeaker

Interesting.


26 posted on 08/27/2013 2:07:41 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE

Not only did the St. Lawrence Seaway keep the German U-Boats out, the submarines that we built on the Great Lakes couldn’t get to the Atlantic. So, they put them on barges and floated them down the Mississippi.

However, those carriers were very effective in defending our Northern borders. There is no record of any invasion from that direction during World War II.


27 posted on 08/27/2013 2:17:28 PM PDT by centurion316
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To: donmeaker

Cool. I think I want a model of one.


28 posted on 08/27/2013 4:01:20 PM PDT by Kommodor (Terrorist, Journalist or Democrat? I can't tell the difference.)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE; cripplecreek; Perdogg

Thanks Robert A. Cook, PE.

29 posted on 08/27/2013 6:17:35 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: donmeaker
There were a total of 200 aircraft accidents aboard the WOLVERINE and SABLE that trained fledgling Naval Aviators on Lake Michigan in WW2. Of these accidents, 128 aircraft were lost overboard. Losses included: F4U-1, F4F-3 and F4F-5. F6F-3 and F6F-5, TBF-3, SBD-3 and SBD-5, and SB2U. Here: http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-6i.htm

A&T Recovery, 2500 South Corbett Street, Chicago, Illinois 60608 has surveyed Lake Michigan and recovered many of these lost aircraft. Here: http://atrecovery.com/Pages/ShipWrecks.htm

One of the A&T recoveries is a Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat. It was restored and now graces O’Hare International Airport's Terminal 2. The Wildcat is painted in the colors of LT Butch O’Hare when he won the Medal of Honor defending his carrier, USS LEXINGTON (CV-2). O’Hare engaged a flight of Mitsubishi G4M-1 “Betty” torpedo bombers. O’Hare shot down three and severely damaged two before running out of ammunition. He continued to attack the bombers without ammunition and was instrumental in breaking up the attack. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O%27Hare

30 posted on 08/27/2013 7:20:22 PM PDT by MasterGunner01
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To: centurion316

“Not only did the St. Lawrence Seaway keep the German U-Boats out, the submarines that we built on the Great Lakes couldn’t get to the Atlantic. ...”

The St Lawrence River was never navigable by even the smallest oceangoing vessels, not even in the 18th century.

Locks were necessary, with the earliest getting built in the 1870s. However, they permitted transit of relatively small vessels only, drawing 10 ft or less. And even before, there was the minor obstacle of Niagara Falls, which blocked upriver passage of even the smallest boat.

The Seaway in present form (channels big enough for serious oceangoing vessels, accompanied by hydroelectric plants) was proposed as early as the 1890s, but approval lagged as the governments of Canadian provinces and US states could not reach agreement. Construction did not start until the 1950s, and it opened in 1959.


31 posted on 08/27/2013 8:22:20 PM PDT by schurmann
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To: schurmann

You’re right. Technical foul to call it the St. Lawrence Seaway, but there were smaller locks along the St. Lawrence River and Welland Canal that permitted passage of smaller vessels, but not large enough for Gato Class Submarines.


32 posted on 08/27/2013 8:46:22 PM PDT by centurion316
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To: GeronL

Training. I think the ships were so small that they didn’t have room to take the aircraft on board in a serious way, but served as landing and takeoff platforms, with a minimal sea going crew to keep them “lake worthy”.

Though the water in the great lakes can get rough.


33 posted on 08/27/2013 9:18:26 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: centurion316

Though you can see a German U boat in Chicago....


34 posted on 08/27/2013 9:20:15 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: centurion316

However, those carriers were very effective in defending our Northern borders. There is no record of any invasion from that direction during World War II.


My father was a police detective when he joined the Navy in WWII to “see the world”. He ended up “seeing Chicago”. He spent the entire war as a SP patrolling the Chicago docks. He always said he must have done a good job because no Japs ever made it past there.


35 posted on 08/27/2013 9:22:00 PM PDT by chaosagent (Remember, no matter how you slice it, forbidden fruit still tastes the sweetest!)
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To: donmeaker

That sounds pretty cool still.


36 posted on 08/27/2013 10:23:59 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: chaosagent

I think it was Heinlein who said that the bravest thing anyone ever did was signing up. When you sign up you put yourself under orders, and give up a lot of control.

After you have signed up, all anyone can do is follow through. The difference between returning as a live hero or a dead one is mostly luck. Eisenhower thought his career was ruined at the end of WWI when he hadn’t been permitted to go overseas because of his German sounding name, but he continued to follow through, and eventually was recognized for doing well.

Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is ever an orphan. Your father did his bit. My father was 8 when the war started and served in WWII by delivering papers. When the war was over, he was fired, so the returning veterans could have a job. He later served in the field artillery just after the Korean war, so I had a chance to be born at a stateside Army post. My sister was born at another post.


37 posted on 08/27/2013 10:35:32 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: chaosagent
However, those carriers were very effective in defending our Northern borders. There is no record of any invasion from that direction during World War II.

They did let the Canadians who served with the US in the 1st Special Service Force get by though. Good thing, as they helped train the shockingly green US soldiers of that unit. Later, US survivors of that units many battles stiffened the 45th Division, and the 1st Special Service Force commander (Robert T. Fredrick) ended his career with the Special Forces group fighting the Greek insurrection as a Major General with 7 or 8 Purple Hearts. The Special Forces insignia has a likeness of his V-42 commando knife on it.

But they had to go the long way around, all the way to Montana to avoid those aircraft carriers (and your dad).

38 posted on 08/27/2013 10:49:27 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: centurion316

“... there were smaller locks along the St. Lawrence River and Welland Canal that permitted passage of smaller vessels, but not large enough for Gato Class Submarines.”

Posters with greater knowledge of US & Allied submarine production 1939-45 must shed light on which subs were launched, and from where.

Please accept my apologies for lack of clarity: my original focus was on the threat. My intent was to remind the forum that there never has any interval of time when any oceangoing warships were able to reach any of North America’s Great Lakes, unimpeded or unobserved.

Technological advances in civil engineering and vessel power systems worked together to improve access: from roughly 1800 to 1960, impediments to access were reduced, but the chances of any hostile naval vessel gaining access unobserved improved only slightly.


39 posted on 08/29/2013 7:00:53 PM PDT by schurmann
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To: donmeaker

That was nice, thanks!


40 posted on 08/29/2013 7:10:37 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Uncle Miltie: Obama poisoned race relations for a generation. Everything is racial now.)
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