Posted on 08/05/2013 7:11:53 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer
My Boy Scout Troop is considering alternatives and possibilities for the future of the Troop - in light of the policy changes that will become effective in January.
Really, it is a matter of how we would react to changes that are likely to take place AFTER January.
I am looking for competent legal advice about how my Unit's Bylaws could be modified so that two points are clear:
It looks like our Chartered Organization is going to decline their renewal. That leaves us a choice to disband, find another troop to join en masse or find another organization.
All options are on the table. Me and another troop leader are attending the On My Honor Coalition convention next month in Nashville.
One scout, my son is pushing to complete Eagle before January. I have another son who can probably be done in 6 months. We may keep him in BSA at some other troop just till he finishes since he’s so close. None of the other boys are very close.
The other option is to stay active until BSA announces homosexual leaders are allowed or until they try to make us change our policy. On that day, we turn in our charter and wave goodbye.
It’s a hard decision. One of the hardest ever because there is no ironclad answer.
“Couldn’t disagree more! “
I simply do not get any sane, straight, God-fearing Freeper willing to allow his son, or other boys to join an organization that allows homos ready to rape on the next young kid.
I’m not “puffed up” nor did I react in a “knee jerk” fashion.
The BSA doubled down on stupid, in the face of OVERWHELMING opposition to the change. They are the ones who told the rest of us to conform to their values or we’re welcome to leave.
So, we’re leaving...your constant bashing of FReepers over this topic tells me that courteous, kind and friendly, even towards those who hold opposing views to yours, are values that appear to have missed their mark with you.
The BSA rejected social conservatism, Duty to God, morally straight and clean in the name of political correctness, aka cultural marxism. Any conservative worth their salt knows what to do with this, reject it out of hand. To continue to expose our children to this dogma is a danger and a failure to exercise proper authority and responsibility to our charges.
That you continue to bash FReeper Scouters who are leaving or who are troubled and in dire dilemmas over this decision says alot. And it ain’t good.
“Legacy” is meaningless after the trainwreck
How about take your Scout Troop independent?
Just become SCOUT TROOP 122 with no affiliation to the BSA, let the boys wear jeans and a button up shirt.
Fact is BSA will not stop moving in that direction. Look at the UK where the boys can have sex in the tents. It is heading in that direction.
or just create your own independent organization
My question is, why would a "Biblically-based, fundamental church" continue to charter a BSA troop or pack?
My 9 year old was in a pack chartered by a Presbyterian PCA church and they disbanded the pack.
On your second "line", I think they have already crossed it. You will no longer be able to teach the Biblical truth about homosexuality. You will no longer be able to teach that "morally straight" excludes homosexual acts. At best, you will have to shut your mouth, at worst, you will have to teach acceptance of it. Remember, the new policy is NOT "don't ask, don't tell". It is now acceptance and tolerance of open, in-your-face homosexuality in your troop.
IMHO, it's time to pull the plug on the BSA. This change was an "inside job". They had a Supreme Court ruling to allow them to keep things as they were. It is said that a fish rots from the head down. BSA's head is rotten and it will just get worse. There is no longer any protection to keep homosexual adults out since traditional morality with regard to homosexuality is no longer a "core value" of the BSA.
Because you cannot use the word "scouting". BSA has it trademarked. That is 1 of the big hurdles OnMyHonor.Net is working to circumvent at the moment. All goes back to the 1916 Congressional Charter issued to BSA.
2. When the National Organization dictates what we can/ can't teach.
I hate to tell you this, but these two lines have already been crossed - they just haven't told you yet.
In fact, these policies are already in de facto force. You can't tell someone that something WILL be effective on such and such a future date without implying that that "something" is really okay right now. Such was the case with the "repeal" of Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell. Sodomites "came out" with impunity as soon as the law was passed, even though it wasn't officially effective for many months to come.
And I'll stand by my contention that homosexual adult leaders WILL be not just allowed, but mandated by the time this policy change is official. There is now no defense against it since the BSA forfeited all of its rights to determine membership.
I know this decision is excruciatingly painful for you to make, and to let go of a part of America - a part that was but that is no more - but you really need to seriously consider leaving this now-corrupt organization. You may think your troop is insulated against all of this perversion, but insulated pockets of conservatism is EXACTLY what the moral anarchists love to target the most. And you have a target on your back if you stay.
Bingo! There are no "lone ranger" scout troops; there will always be interaction with other units in inter- and intra-council camping events, competitions, and shared scouting facilities. There are also subject-specific "camps" emphasizing certain aspects of scouting that comprise members of many different troops. One of my biggest griefs in this respect is the fate of the Order of the Arrow, a sub-organization that is a perfect example of interaction on a nation level of scout members.
One horrible result I'm expecting is the formation of all-"gay" scout troops, most likely being sponsored by the most radical mainline churches like the ECA and PC-USA. These troops will write their own rules - never mind the meaningless "standards" of non-sexuality promulgated by national. The national org has already turned a blind eye to scouts marching, in uniform, in a "gay pride" parade in Utah - it will only get exponentially worst and in-your-face.
These all-"gay" scouting troops most certainly WILL attend multi-unit scouting events. They will be absolute poison to all they touch.
Second, I respect anyone who has already decided to leave Scouts. Initially, I had swung to several alternate possibilities - and I have considered many alternatives.
But for now, I see no immediate reason to flee.
That may come, but for me it is not yet the time.
My interest and the purpose of this thread was to seek legal council and guidance for anyone (like me) who is convinced to stay- and hopefully change the system from within. I am not at all interested in the "go or stay" debate. For me, for now, that is settled.
For your consideration, I offer a quote from a letter written by the Alliance Defending Freedom to the BSA:
“Boy Scouts are charged ‘to do the right thing,’ and this is the right moment for Boy Scouts leadership to set the example and do the right thing: defend Scouts’ honor,” said Senior Counsel David Cortman. “For generations, the Boy Scouts have stood firm on certain moral principles that have successfully shaped our nation’s boys into leaders. The Constitution protects the Boy Scouts’ freedom to promote the values that have defined the organization and to ensure that its leaders and members adhere to those values.”
“Boy Scouts of America was founded upon rich and timeless principles. It shouldn’t give in to intimidation or abandon its values,” said Senior Legal Counsel Erik Stanley, who is an Eagle Scout. “Its leadership should defend the Scouts’ honor and stand strong on the principles that have made the Boy Scouts one of America’s most revered institutions.”
“We write to alert BSA to the legal consequences of giving in to the demands of those who oppose or wish to change BSA’s values,” a summary of the letter to the Boy Scouts states. “Giving in will not alleviate their demands nor will it avoid legal liability for BSA or its many local councils, charters, and troops. It is not legally necessary for BSA to sacrifice its history or its principles in the face of growing threats.”
I do not quote this for the purpose of defending my decision to stay but to set the stage for what the ADF says about the risks of staying. The referenced ADF letter,
"...affirms BSA’s values but warns that an inconsistently applied policy nationwide could open the door to lawsuits. Activist groups could seize upon an inconsistent policy as supposed evidence that the policy is no longer essential to the Boy Scouts’ mission, and local councils and troops could be exposed to individual litigation, the letter explains."
Obviously, our Unit has virtually no control over nationwide policy and its consistent execution. We only have control over the policy that we set locally. For us, consistency with God's Word is paramount. As long as the National policy does not infringe on OUR policy, we can continue.
The BSA National policy includes this (and is marked as having been updated on March 15):
While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.
So, I believe that my Unit must establish Bylaws, or adopt Resolutions that establish a firm commitment to the ideals of the BSA coupled with the biblical tenants of the chartering organization. For our part, we must maintain harmony - both with the stated National policy AND with our church's doctrine. The National policy may change - but OUR policies will not. (REMEMBER: IF a conflict arises, we will join those who, in good conscience have already left BSA.)
I welcome your comments, or advice related to the subject of mitigation of the risk of exposure to legal action while continuing to operate a BSA Unit.
Thank you.
I'm not necessarily asking this in just the context of homosexuality, but in any instance where a kid wanted to join. How DO kids join your troop? Are they all just default members of the Church which sponsors it? That wasn't the case in my troop in the 70's, where we had plenty of friends of members who were outside the Church. Just interested in knowing.
;^)
Does your unit reserve the right to turn away any boy from membership who you deem does not live up to the standards of Scouting?
Yes.
If you did do this, and the word just "happened" to get to National, what do you think would happen?
We would cite the BSA policy that says, in part:
"... we do not grant membership to individuals who ...engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA."
You might ask (& it's a good question!),"Will that be their stated policy after January 1, 2014?" And I don't know.
Furthermore, the NEW policy states,
Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to (a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and (c) demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.
This is a good standard. It does not conflict with our goal of protecting our youth.
Then you ask,"How DO kids join your troop?"
They apply. They meet with the SM. There is no religion test of any kind. They do not have to be members (or from families who are members) of our church. Many of our Scouts come from other churches. We attract such because of the standards that we maintain.
I hope I have answered your questions adequately.
Thank-you.
Food for thought...
What do you plan to do in the case where a new recruit(s) has perverse feelings but has never acted on them and never revealed any of feelings to anyone, the boy is a member for several years, and one day an adult leader happens across sodomy happening involving that boy and one or more others ?
Of course, a parent leader could also be harboring feelings never acted on or spoken of as well (kept hidden).
People hide these feelings from the time they first become “curious”.
Expelling the offenders after a sexual assault or “consensual” action might bring a whole heap of legal troubles on your leadership related to discrimination.
Either way, the parents of some of those boys may feel their sons were raped and they could bring a whole heap of trouble on your leadership related to sexual assault that happened on your watch.
When you have other people’s children under your supervision you are acting in loco parentis, which implies rights and responsibilities.
An attorney who is well-versed in the practical application of this type of law in your state may be one who has dealt with schools in this regard. I’m sure they’d be able to at least speak on some practical experience.
By “practical” application I’m referring to possible real-world outcomes in your State. Since our laws do not have an unchangeable foundation regarding morality, the outcomes are dependent on the perceptions of the day, e.g., only a few decades ago sodomy was largely illegal in the US, but nowadays it has a protected status. How well you fare in such situations may well come down to what judge you find yourself in front of and may be influenced by what kind of protests are mounted by special interest groups and what kind of media coverage the situation receives.
Okay. Have you taken YPT?
Do you think anything you describe is not adequately covered by that training?
Is your question one that nobody ever considered before the policy change?
Do you believe that the new policy condones sodomy?
Do you think the new policy condones rape?
.
I'm not talking about some situation in the future where the "perceptions of the day" are different than today.
I'm trying to deal with today's perceptions. Today's reality.
I'm well aware of the constancy of God's Standard and Satan's unyielding attempts to steer culture further and further away from God.
Who will stand up and fight? If not me, who?
I believe that elite institutions, along with individuals who act based on Godly Principles - out of the public spotlight - CAN and SHOULD influence thought-leaders, policy, and the law far more than elections. I believe in the POWER of God to change hearts and minds.
This is one of the principle reasons why Christians are here during this AGE. We are to show people a more excellent way. We are to demonstrate and declare God's Love for them. We are to lead them to the Cross and then the Throne of God so that, in submission and obedience to Him, they willingly conform to the image of Christ!
What else would I do?
If I retreat from the fight, am I serving the King?
If I do not tell a sinner that God loves him and that he does not need to be ruled by sin - am I serving the King of Glory?
I don't think so.
How about “Boy Pioneers” instead of “Scouts”.
If the Anglican Church could proudly parade their gay peacock bishop it is not impossible to imagine that the liberal churches would just love to show the nation how “enlightened” they are by having gay scout troups. They would be competing with each other to be the first to welcome the gay/bisexual/transgender scouts. Tolerance is the greatest virtue of the day.
And you know they will, at their first opportunity.
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