Posted on 07/08/2013 5:37:15 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
But say Lee had managed to badly defeat Meade at Gettysburg, would he have taken Washington or Baltimore? No. Had he won then he would do what he did following defeat, go home. What choice did he have? He was deep in Northern territory without a supply line. He would have had thousands of wounded to care for. He would have shot off most of his ammunition. He would have had the Army of the Potomac, wounded but still dangerous, in the area. He would have had no choice but to go back to Virginia.
The armies blundered into one another by accident. Gettysburg was not a planned event, but born of the of of war...
the infowarrior
Grant whittled away the ANV pretty well in 1865 without having them penned up.
But say Lee had managed to badly defeat Meade at Gettysburg, would he have taken Washington or Baltimore? No.
That is not a foregone conclusion.
Had he won then he would do what he did following defeat, go home. What choice did he have? He was deep in Northern territory without a supply line.
As Sherman found out about a year later, you did not need to have a supply line.
Lee's mentality after a victory was not to go home and wait for the next battle, but to press on.
He would have had thousands of wounded to care for.
He would have sent them to Virginia.
He would have shot off most of his ammunition.
Which he would have replenished from Union stores.
He would have had the Army of the Potomac, wounded but still dangerous, in the area.
Not if his plan to defeat it in detail had worked.
Again, I believe Lee's campaign would have eventually ended in defeat.
But he did not invade Pennsylvania with the intent of running straight back home.
He was looking for a major strategic victory.
When there are fat, guaranteed government contracts to be had, manufacturers move very quickly.
A year, certainly. Multiple years? I'm not sold on that one.
Sherman was not facing a Confederate army on his march and didn't fight a pitched battle.
Lee's mentality after a victory was not to go home and wait for the next battle, but to press on.
Then why didn't he press on after Chancellorsville?
He would have sent them to Virginia.
He had no supply line established.
Which he would have replenished from Union stores.
Union stores where?
Not really. Destroying mills and foundries is a setback.
But taking Pittsburgh would not have meant an end to the Union's supplies of iron ore, or coking coal or water.
There were large foundries in Massachusetts, not as well-located as Pittsburgh, but still productive.
Pittsburgh's greatest advantage was Rodman's patented process which gave it a technological edge. That edge was transferable in an emergency.
I'm not sure how well you understand Pittsburgh's role in all this - it was not a magical place. It had great advantages which made it a very economical area to forge iron and therefore a place that attracted engineering talent.
Lee was facing an army, and was able to gather quite a bit of stores locally despite that fact.
Then why didn't he press on after Chancellorsville?
He did. He went to Gettysburg. Within a couple of weeks of Chancellorsville he was already advancing northward. Brandy Station took place on June 9th.
He had no supply line established.
Indeed he did. So well established, in fact, that his troops had time to capture and send to Virginia black Pennsylvanians as "contraband." If he had the resources to kidnap people and ship them South, surely he could have used those same resources to send wounded men along the same route.
Union stores where?
The Allegheny Arsenal (still being restocked), Harpers Ferry (already worked once) and the Washington Arsenal.
Not sure if that is "just a fact."
Do you have a source for that statistic?
Regardless, Pittsburgh's contribution was very large. If it had gone, other foundries and mills in the US would have expanded their output and capacity to fill the gap.
When the supplier who has the best cost advantage exits the market, the supplier who has the second best cost advantage wins.
There would have been a period of dislocation, but there would also have been strong incentive to shorten that dislocation period.
Replacing that in 1863 is not as easy as you seem to think.
The first coke-fired smelter in Pittsburgh was built in 1859, less than two years later it was the industry standard in Pittsburgh.
If the city converted its entire base to a new technology in less than two years, I believe that other areas would move quickly to ramp up.
His actual words:
I therefore consider that in view of the Constitution and the laws the Union is unbroken, and to the extent of my ability, I shall take care, as the Constitution itself expressly enjoins upon me, that the laws of the Union be faithfully executed in all the States. Doing this I deem to be only a simple duty on my part, and I shall perform it so far as practicable unless my rightful masters, the American people, shall withhold the requisite means or in some authoritative manner direct the contrary. I trust this will not be regarded as a menace, but only as the declared purpose of the Union that it will constitutionally defend and maintain itself.
In doing this there needs to be no bloodshed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere. Where hostility to the United States in any interior locality shall be so great and universal as to prevent competent resident citizens from holding the Federal offices, there will be no attempt to force obnoxious strangers among the people for that object. While the strict legal right may exist in the Government to enforce the exercise of these offices, the attempt to do so would be so irritating and so nearly impracticable withal that I deem it better to forego for the time the uses of such offices.
The mails, unless repelled, will continue to be furnished in all parts of the Union. So far as possible the people everywhere shall have that sense of perfect security which is most favorable to calm thought and reflection. The course here indicated will be followed unless current events and experience shall show a modification or change to be proper, and in every case and exigency my best discretion will be exercised, according to circumstances actually existing and with a view and a hope of a peaceful solution of the national troubles and the restoration of fraternal sympathies and affections.
Such vicious threats!
Just recently discovered Jeff Davis' official response to Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation. Issued January 5, 1863, four days after the EP.
We can, I guess, call it the Enslavement Proclamation.
In it he announces official CSA policy is to enslave all free blacks presently in the South, as well as any free blacks or escaped slaves they are able to capture when invading northern states. And he officially states that these kidnapped people and their issue will be slaves forever.
Utterly destroys the notion that there was "no difference" in Union and Confederate attitudes towards blacks. In the same week one government issues a proclamation of its intention to forever free all black slaves it can reach, and the other announces its intention to forever enslave all black people, free or slave, it can get its hands on.
http://corematerials.homestead.com/files/jd63.pdf
In his Inaugural Address, Lincoln stated that it was his duty “to collect the duties and imposts,” but beyond that “there will be no invasion of any state.”
What that really meant was that he was saying that if the seceded states failed to collect and pay the newly-doubled tariff rates, as the South Carolinians did with respect to the 1828 Tariff of Abominations, there would be an invasion.
He was true to his word.
4/8/1861 Armed Coast Guard revenue cutter, Harriet Lane, put out to sea from New York with sealed orders.
4/9/1861 The steam transports Illinois and Baltic got to sea. The Illinois carried 300 troops and the Baltic had 200. The Powhatan had sailed on the 7th with 358 troops. The Pawnee left from Norfolk with 10 guns and 200 troops.
He instructed Fox to fight his way in if opposed.
Fighting is vicious work.
Less than 1100 troops total, when the CSA and SC forces in the area were over 6,000, not to mention tens of thousands more that could quickly have been brought to bear.
Yup, sounds much more like a definitive plan to invade and conquer SC than a plan to reinforce and hold a fort owned by the USA.
Your screed was overstated and irrelevant to the article.
I see you now agree that there was a large military and naval force ordered to enter Charleston Harbor. This was an act of war unapproved by the government.
His speech revealed his vicious intent.
... In decades to come, "Mellon" will become one of the city’s, and country’s, most prominent names. ...
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Uh ... okay ...
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