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Vanity. Need computer advice.
self | 03/19/13 | Self

Posted on 03/19/2013 8:39:54 AM PDT by saminfl

I need some computer advice. I have 4 computers at home. Two laptops and two desktops. One laptop has Windows 7 and is used by my wife for genealogy research and net surfing. The others are mine and they have XP (desktop currently needs new MB) Windows 7 (desktop) and Vista (laptop used in my traveling and some of my work. I absolutely hate the Vista machine. It is slow and even slower when running multiple pages. I have run every correction and restoration program available on it and I still hate using it.

When I use it at work, I use Excel to analyze some telemetry data. I also play video from a weapon system. After XP, the media players sucked. With XP I could pause, copy a video frame and post it in my report. Can't do that with media player after XP.

I want to buy a new computer. I absolutely hate the look of Windows 8 and refuse to buy it. Windows 7 works on my desktop for surfing, email, etc, but I really don't like it.

I refuse to buy a MAC as I can afford 3 or 4 PCs for the price of one MAC. I am not fond of Apple as I think they are an arrogant company. You have to buy their 2 year warranty program to speak to them after 90 days from purchase. I have an IPAD and an IPhone and neither thrills me. My wife loves the IPAD. I have used computers since my TRS-80.

The advice I would like is: Can I use linux on a computer as my primary OS? Will it run Office? Will it play .avi videos? Would I buy a new laptop with Windows 8, remove that OS and use linux? How hard would that be? Is Linux hard to use?


TOPICS: Computers/Internet
KEYWORDS: laptop; mac; microsoft; notebook; pc; windows; windows8; windowsxp
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1 posted on 03/19/2013 8:39:54 AM PDT by saminfl
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To: saminfl

I love my I mac all in one 27


2 posted on 03/19/2013 8:42:42 AM PDT by al baby (Hi Mom)
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To: saminfl

OMG the trash 80


3 posted on 03/19/2013 8:43:18 AM PDT by al baby (Hi Mom)
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To: saminfl

I do not know if Linux will run MS Office, BUT, it probably will run Open Office, which WILL run MS Office files.


4 posted on 03/19/2013 8:43:35 AM PDT by RoadGumby (This is not where I belong, Take this world and give me Jesus.)
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To: saminfl
Avoid Windows 8 like the plague. Unless you are a devout masoginist do not buy a computer with windows 8.

That being said, IF you have to purchase a computer make sure it comes with Windows 8 PROFESSIONAL (NOT the home edition) you will then have downgrade rights to Windows 7.

This coming from myself, as a 30 year veteran IT professional. Just sayin.

5 posted on 03/19/2013 8:46:34 AM PDT by unixfox (Abolish Slavery, Repeal The 16th Amendment!)
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To: saminfl

I used to hate Macs too - until I bought one. Now I love it. I will never go back! Rush uses an Apple computer too, so I’m in good company. Before you completely discount the idea of an IMac you owe it to yourself to at least visit an Apple store and play around with one.


6 posted on 03/19/2013 8:47:16 AM PDT by JaguarXKE (Welcome to the new America.)
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To: saminfl

Short answer:

Yes, you could run Linux but I’d advise against it if you’re not experienced with it.....plus you would definitely be “giving up” a lot of Windows apps you need.

Buy a new laptop. It will come with Windows 8. Don’t worry about it. Go to www.dowmload.com and get a copy of “Classic Shell”. It’s free, and it makes Win8 MUCH more friendly; more Win7-like. You get the “Start” button back, etc....will look very familiar.

Check out the Fujitsu’s. Bought one recently for a lady friend and was blown away by how much laptop you get for the money (17” display, 1TB of disk, 6GB RAM, USB 3.0 ports....the works).


7 posted on 03/19/2013 8:47:25 AM PDT by RightOnline (I am Andrew Breitbart!)
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To: saminfl
Is Linux hard to use?

Yes. There may be people here who try to convince you otherwise, but unless you consider spending time trying to fix computers a hobby, you won't enjoy it. Tracking down binary drivers, figuring out dependency issues, and googling for command line syntaxes gets frustrating after awhile. And that's before you even get to your point about .avis (and their codecs), Office compatibility, and more.

I'm a Mac user, and I can appreciate your stance (though a Mac Mini isn't expensive), so I won't try to push it on you.

Thus, I'll simply recommend going for Windows 8. As always, the bark is louder than the bite, and while you'll be annoyed at a few of the changes (lack of a start button, "Metro" interface), you can largely use it just like previous versions. It's not as bad as those make it out to be.

I'm a technical guy. I use Linux on my servers (hosted in the Amazon cloud). But I wouldn't ever recommend Linux to anyone on a desktop unless they have a ton of free time and patience.

8 posted on 03/19/2013 8:47:37 AM PDT by Dan Nunn (Support the NRA!)
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To: saminfl

Linux will not run Windows applications like Office. There are alternatives however.


9 posted on 03/19/2013 8:48:08 AM PDT by unixfox (Abolish Slavery, Repeal The 16th Amendment!)
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To: saminfl
Not really answering your final question, but if you installed VLC or MPCSTAR on the non XP boxes, you should be able to capture frames to use for your reports.

I would install either one of them without choosing defaults, then selectivley set just the defaults you need, so as to not change everything over to the new player.

I use MPCSTAR on my Windows 7 boxes for video, but still use Windows Media Player for MP3s and WMAs.

F11 will do a snapshot for MPCSTAR, not sure how to do it with VLC. (I'm sure VLC does snapshots too.)

10 posted on 03/19/2013 8:53:12 AM PDT by Slump Tester (What if I'm pregnant Teddy? Errr-ahh -Calm down Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
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To: saminfl
You can run OpenOffice. It is free and has 99% the functionality of MS Office. Unless you are using some of the brand new or super advanced features, you should be good.

For videos, your options for players are limited but you should be able to play any typical format with a Linux player.

The issue with Linux is the limited amount of software. If you need a unique piece of software one day it will probably only be available for Windows. There are windows emulators but it may not be perfect.

If you aren't frequently in need of new quirky software and do typical things like office, browsing and videos, go with Linux.

11 posted on 03/19/2013 8:53:40 AM PDT by varyouga
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To: saminfl

You can make Windows 8 look and act like Windows 7.


12 posted on 03/19/2013 8:54:16 AM PDT by Jayster
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To: saminfl

There are 27000 laptops on Ebay.

They sell cheap. Pick whatever you like and bid low.

If you get outbid, another will come along shortly.

Don’t bid on any seller who has a score lower than about 95%.


13 posted on 03/19/2013 8:56:23 AM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: saminfl

Get the windows8 Machine and add start8 from stardock for $4.00. You never have to look at the new UI (unless you want to). Plus you get the real benefits of windows 8.


14 posted on 03/19/2013 8:57:22 AM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: unixfox

In the market for a new computer also, why is Windows 8 to be avoided? I mainly want it for storing photos, surfing the internet.


15 posted on 03/19/2013 8:58:00 AM PDT by Sparky1776
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To: JaguarXKE

My iMac was bought for its photo capability which is superior to anything I would need to add to my old Dell.


16 posted on 03/19/2013 8:58:55 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (NRA Life Member)
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To: saminfl

Does Ubuntu work?


17 posted on 03/19/2013 8:59:45 AM PDT by Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America (PRISON AT BENGHAZI?????)
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To: saminfl

I used to spend $2K on my (high performance) home made Windows computers, so spending $2300 on a computer that runs OSX, any flavor of Windows and Linux (simultaneously) wasn’t that great of stretch.

I used to buy my kids $500 computers. Never had one that wasn’t a total pain. Low cost is offset by bloatware and trial software that is a pain to remove. They often had cost saving features like video RAM taking from regular physical RAM, no copy of the operating system provided (it was in a hidden area of the hard drive, which is useless if the hard drive fails). Decent (not high end) home builds usually cost me between $1K and $1.5K.

As for Apple not talking to you after 90 days...I have NEVER been able to get a human being at Microsoft. When you home build you get only individual part warranties. My experience is that HP, Dell, Acer, etc., offer abysmal tech support. Apple has customer satisfaction ratings in the 90’s - no one else comes close.

My wife just got a new iMac. Runs Windows simultaneously for the digitizing software she needs to use. It is fast, does what we need, and cost $1200.


18 posted on 03/19/2013 9:00:17 AM PDT by Crusher138 ("Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just")
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To: saminfl

Oh and Linux is the pain in the arse! I’ve tried it for my desktop several times over the past 2 decades and it has improved but still a pain. Too many flavors and they still have the hunt and peck for the libraries you need so you can compile the latest program you want but it’s not on an installer for your flavor of Linux. You see Linux has a “greatest distro ever” every few months and then everyone flocks to that except for the older build that became stable. So you then have to choose go old or go bleeding edge. But both will leave you needing to compile programs.


19 posted on 03/19/2013 9:00:26 AM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: saminfl

I tried several media players with both XP and Win7.

I liked Media Player Classic, but it would not play some files.

Most recently, I have found VideoLAN (VLC) to be the better one currently. It plays most video formats, including the weird WindowsTV (WTV) format.

It is also available for Windows, Linux and numerous other OS.


20 posted on 03/19/2013 9:03:44 AM PDT by TomGuy
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To: saminfl

I have two computers both run duel boot with linux mint and win 7. I hardly ever boot into windoze and my 10 yr old uses linux daily on the other computer. for office programs just use libre office it does anything ms office does. vlc media player will take care of video. And there are tons of free programs. don’t let people scare ya give it a try.


21 posted on 03/19/2013 9:15:39 AM PDT by sopwith (don't tread on me)
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To: Crusher138

If you don’t want bloatware you can buy directly from Microsoft at a Microsoft Store. They have their own images (at least that’s what I’ve heard).

Or use one of the bloatware removal tools out there.


22 posted on 03/19/2013 9:17:43 AM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: TomGuy


23 posted on 03/19/2013 9:20:32 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas exercitus gerit ;-{)
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To: saminfl

I’d like to revisit the Vista computer issue.

How much memory are you running on that laptop?

I have a Acer Aspire 5515 that came with Vista Home basic (which does suck, but, I only paid $50 for the computer). I upgraded it to Vista Home Premium and it works fine. I do have 2 gig of memory installed on it. You HAVE to have 2 gig for Vista.

I can also drop a Linux drive into it, but, cannot get some of my astronomy software to run on it...yet.


24 posted on 03/19/2013 9:21:54 AM PDT by Conan the Librarian (The Best in Life is to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and the Dewey Decimal System)
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To: for-q-clinton
If you don’t want bloatware you can buy directly from Microsoft at a Microsoft Store. They have their own images (at least that’s what I’ve heard).

Or use one of the bloatware removal tools out there.

Seems like a lot of effort to go through just to get a Windows machine to work like it should...

25 posted on 03/19/2013 9:21:58 AM PDT by Crusher138 ("Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just")
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To: sopwith; saminfl

Best decision I ever made was to take a day, download Linux Mint MATE (64bit for my computer), burn it to a CD, boot it up, and kick the tires. I like Linux Mint Mate as much as I like Windows XP, better than Windows 7, and don't even get me started with Windows 8. And, because the "Menu" button replaces the "Start" button, there is very little cross-over learning curve with the menus and organization. If you use LibreOffice / OpenOffice for documents, FireFox to surf the web, and Thunderbird to read your email, you'll probably never look back. I too would recommend giving it a shot : "http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php". I also tried Ubuntu -- but that "Unity" abomination killed me. Unity is to Ubuntu what the new tablet style interface is to Windows 8. It's not for me; I have no desire to relearn how to navigate the desktop.


26 posted on 03/19/2013 9:26:00 AM PDT by so_real ( "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.")
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To: Dan Nunn

You’re right. Windows 8 isn’t so bad, but neither is being covered in tar and set on fire.

It’s just a minor inconvenience.


27 posted on 03/19/2013 9:26:29 AM PDT by IMR 4350
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To: saminfl
I want to buy a new computer. I absolutely hate the look of Windows 8 and refuse to buy it.

I just (over the week end) bought a dell and it came with windows 8. At first it was very confusing but after using it for just 2 days, I wound never go back {I was using Vista}.

While the new computer is fast the OS is faster than a scalded dawg.

Windows 8 is very intuitive but since it is different, the reviews are spotty.

I like it and I'm not an Abbey Shuto.

28 posted on 03/19/2013 9:28:14 AM PDT by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorist savages, start today.)
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To: TomGuy

I’ve had downloads that won’t play on anything BUT VLC, But I still like MPCSTAR. You just have to pay attention to what you click on as you install it.


29 posted on 03/19/2013 9:28:21 AM PDT by Slump Tester (What if I'm pregnant Teddy? Errr-ahh -Calm down Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
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To: saminfl
Go to HP, and look at their new laptops & desktop PCs; they're inexpensive and come with 3yr warranties. You can 'downgrade' to Win-7 Pro x64, which I suggest you do.

They also have "refurbished" laptops & desktop PCs, with Win-7 Pro x64.

Stay away from "Home Premium" and those other, lesser O/S options; go only for Win-7 Pro x64.

If you were in PA, I could help. I have OEM CDs of Win-7 Pro x64 which we could reformat/install on our usuable units. I also have Win-XP Pro OEM CDs, if that's your cup 'o tea. XP & 7 are stable and full-featured; Win-8 is garbage.

Sorry, I can't offer any pros or cons about Linux or Apple.

30 posted on 03/19/2013 9:34:43 AM PDT by carriage_hill (The Greatest Power The Corrupt, Criminal US Media Has, Is The Power To Ignore The Truth.)
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To: al baby
"...I refuse to buy a MAC as I can afford 3 or 4 PCs for the price of one MAC. I am not fond of Apple as I think they are an arrogant company. You have to buy their 2 year warranty program to speak to them after 90 days from purchase. I have an IPAD and an IPhone and neither thrills me. My wife loves the IPAD. I have used computers since my TRS-80..."

Well,now that you have that out of your system...

I would hope that if you have been using computers since the TRS-80, you can probably figure out the answer to "Can I use linux on a computer as my primary OS?"

31 posted on 03/19/2013 9:39:08 AM PDT by rlmorel (1793 French Jacobins and 2012 American Liberals have a lot in common.)
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To: IMR 4350
Windows 8 just has a bad rep...

All joking aside, we tried running a windows only radiology PACS system on a Windows 8 platform, and it was damned fast, waay faster than XP (which is what it mostly is running on) and faster than Windows 7.

32 posted on 03/19/2013 9:45:08 AM PDT by rlmorel (1793 French Jacobins and 2012 American Liberals have a lot in common.)
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To: al baby

i programmed those in high school. those and apple 2e’s.


33 posted on 03/19/2013 9:46:44 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: saminfl

On the days I get to exclusively use my Linux/Kubuntu system for work the change feels analogous to taking off one’s hiking boots after a long hike and putting on one’s favorite, worn out loafers. ... Today is one such day! :)


34 posted on 03/19/2013 9:49:00 AM PDT by The Duke (We don't rent pigs, but apparently we *do* ELECT them.)
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To: saminfl

Why not get rid of Vista and load XP on it?


35 posted on 03/19/2013 9:57:00 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: saminfl

Linux is difficult to install on some hardware, difficult to use MS based software on ( some is impossible,) and kernels come and go fast. Linux is great if as another poster put it _ you want a time consuming hobby. Imagine linux is learning a whole new language win8 just a new desktop. You could just put xp on vista machine.


36 posted on 03/19/2013 10:03:38 AM PDT by enduserindy (Conservative Dead Head)
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To: saminfl

Unbuntu Linux can be run off a DVD/CD or USB card, so you don’t actually have to replace the OS. You can try it out without installing it.

....

It will not run Windows Office. It will run Open Office (or Libre Office). It does not run Windows programs, although using a program called WINE you can get it to do some of them although sometimes a bit wonky.

Linux won’t even play that online game “Hero Up” my 10-year old nephew likes, because it requires Windows or Mac O/S to run properly.

I have no idea about excel.

I think it will probably run avi files just fine. It seems to run video of all types just fine for me.

Is Linux hard to use?

Command line stuff stinks like poop. I still can’t figure out GIMP (the image manipulator or whatever)
.....

Having said all that, overall a free Linux O/S can surf the web just fine. I don’t know about all those professional things people might need, but they are apparently switching every police computer in France to Linux. (whether that is a bad idea or not, I have no idea)
.....

Like I said, you can run it off a disc or USB as a trial run and see if you like it. Set the BiOS to your Vista machine to read the DVD/CD drive (or USB drive if you do that) before the HDD on startup after you get your live disc burned.


37 posted on 03/19/2013 10:13:30 AM PDT by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: stuartcr

because XP loses MS support within a year...


38 posted on 03/19/2013 10:13:46 AM PDT by bt_dooftlook (Democrats - the party of Amnesty, Abortion, and Adolescence)
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To: saminfl

Roll the Vista machine back to XP if you can.

If you look at the history of Windows, every other version is the pits. Vista fits that pattern.

It is between XP snd 7.


39 posted on 03/19/2013 10:14:32 AM PDT by spel_grammer_an_punct_polise (Learn three chords and you, too, can be a Rock Star!)
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To: saminfl
You can try Linux rather easy. Just download and make a CD. You can boot up with the CD. I switched to Linux because I was tired of Windows 95 crashing once a day. Dell was offering preloaded Linux computers for awhile so I jumped at the chance to ditch Windows.

It's been quite a ride but the command line truly gives you control that would take point and click all day to do. To me the learning curve was worth it. I would not buy a car with the hood welded shut and I don't want a computer where I can't tinker inside of it occasionally either.

40 posted on 03/19/2013 10:15:50 AM PDT by Nateman (If liberals are not screaming you are doing it wrong!)
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To: saminfl

“I refuse to buy a MAC as I can afford 3 or 4 PCs for the price of one MAC. I am not fond of Apple as I think they are an arrogant company. You have to buy their 2 year warranty program to speak to them after 90 days from purchase. I have an IPAD and an IPhone and neither thrills me. My wife loves the IPAD.”

Think just a bit about what you wrote above.

You already have an iPad that the wife “loves”. Ask her what she loves about it. Listen closely. Ask her next if she would like a computer that works similarly. What is her reply?

You may not be “thrilled” by the iPad or iPhone, but do they work reliably?
By contrast, you wrote above that “I absolutely hate the Vista machine. It is slow and even slower when running multiple pages. I have run every correction and restoration program available on it and I still hate using it.”

STOP regarding Apple as “an arrogant company”. We all know that they are. One can be a conservative, and be philosophically opposed to “Apple corporate policies”, but the proof is in the pudding, or more correctly, the product. The Mac is quite a nice machine — just ignore the poltiics, and you’ll be fine. Even Mr. Limbaugh does that.

You don’t have to buy a “2 year warranty” from Apple. You get a 1-year warranty with a new (or refurbished) Apple product, and you can add an additional two years of AppleCare if you wish. I have never bought AppleCare, and I’ve been a Mac user since 1987 and have done just fine.

A new Mac need not cost the price of “3 or 4 PCs”. I would suggest you investigate the Mac “Mini” line, with an eye on the 2.6ghz i7 model. You can get this for about $755 if you shop in the right places (I know where those places are). I have one myself and it replaced a 9-year-old PowerMac g4 “tower” and runs quieter, faster, more reliably. The Mini has been one of Apple’s most reliable products, it would probably be a waste of $$$ to get AppleCare for it.

If you got a Mac Mini, you can continue to use your existing monitor (don’t have to buy another unless you wish to). You can also use your USB mouse and USB keyboard if you wish — no need to buy Apple products. In fact I recommend that you DO NOT buy either an Apple keyboard or mouse (or the Thunderbolt display, FAR too much $$$). Apple hasn’t made a good mouse or keyboard since the introduction of USB — buy those elsewhere.

Also — DO NOT pay Apple’s price for additional RAM — buy and add it yourself. Your best bet is to get the “base configuration”. (1tb hdd and 4gb RAM). You could always add an external bootable SSD later on, using an external USB3 enclosure (VERY fast on the Mac if you know what to buy).

You mentioned Linux. Is this not a variant of UNIX? You should understand that what “Mac OS X” -is-, is essentially UNIX with a “Mac face overlaid on it”. In fact, if the command line is your preference, you can still open Terminal and type in UNIX commands. But normally, you don’t have to do this — the Mac OS takes care of all this for you.

If you’re that frustrated by the variations of Windows, I suggest you “put the politics into the pocket”, and perhaps give the Mac a try. Again, I suggest you look carefully at the Mac Mini line. You can get the i5 Mini for a couple of hundred less, but I suggest you spend $200 more and get the i7 version.

For a source, consider “portableone.com” (if you’re outside of California). Fast free shipping, no tax levied. I ordered on Wednesday (from other side of country), shipped Thursday, out for delivery on Friday….


41 posted on 03/19/2013 10:17:00 AM PDT by Road Glide
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To: saminfl

Windows 8 will require some relearning, since its the convergence of laptop and tablet compuing. 1 issue to consider, if your planning on buying a laptop or ultra portable, the intel chipsets are not full w8 compatible yet. A new CPU family is being release mid to late june which will give tablet like battery life with laptop functionality. Another thing to note is XP support is ending late 1stQ 2014, so no more updates.


42 posted on 03/19/2013 10:33:39 AM PDT by waynesa98
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To: bt_dooftlook

Yes, but it will still work.


43 posted on 03/19/2013 11:07:40 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: Sparky1776

If you are used to XP or Windows 7 you will hate the Windows 8 interface. It SUCKS!


44 posted on 03/19/2013 11:07:55 AM PDT by unixfox (Abolish Slavery, Repeal The 16th Amendment!)
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To: Crusher138

Really? It’s too much work to buy it directly at a Microsoft store? or run a utility? If that’s the case you may not want to buy any computer.


45 posted on 03/19/2013 11:50:20 AM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: RightOnline

ping


46 posted on 03/19/2013 12:01:01 PM PDT by folkquest (I plan on being cranky for the next 4 years. Hope to crack a political smile at the midterms!)
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To: saminfl; Ernest_at_the_Beach; ShadowAce; SunkenCiv
The advice I would like is: Can I use linux on a computer as my primary OS? Will it run Office? Will it play .avi videos? Would I buy a new laptop with Windows 8, remove that OS and use linux? How hard would that be? Is Linux hard to use?
47 posted on 03/19/2013 1:31:52 PM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: Sparky1776
I mainly want it for storing photos, surfing the internet.

If that's all you want to do, maybe you should get an external terabyte (or 2 or 3) hard drive to connect to your wireless router, and then get a tablet like an Ipad or Nexus 10?

-PJ

48 posted on 03/19/2013 1:36:02 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (If you are the Posterity of We the People, then you are a Natural Born Citizen.)
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To: saminfl
It is slow and even slower when running multiple pages. I have run every correction and restoration program available on it and I still hate using it.

You might want to look into some task killers to close unecessary background tasks, such as Iobit's Advanced System Care turboboost feature.

Also, you may have accumulated too many temporary files in your IE or other system folders. Just having a lot of junk files in a folder will slow down system processes, and bring your browser to a crawl while it has to navigate through them all, all the time.

Look into doing some basic junk file clean-up, Internet Explorer file clean-up, etc.

-PJ

49 posted on 03/19/2013 1:39:19 PM PDT by Political Junkie Too (If you are the Posterity of We the People, then you are a Natural Born Citizen.)
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To: for-q-clinton

No nearby Microsoft Stores. In fact, there aren’t that many Microsoft stores at all - less than 100 I think...

As for running a utility - been working with computers since 1984. MS Certified Network Admin (at one time). Still say it is STUPID that you have to un-cripple a computer for standard performance.

BTW - Mac Mini’s start at $599. One is running as my business server right now.

2.3GHz quad-core Intel Core i7
4GB memory
Two 1TB hard drives
Intel HD Graphics 4000
OS X Mountain Lion
OS X Server

$999...with UNLIMITED users.


50 posted on 03/19/2013 2:18:48 PM PDT by Crusher138 ("Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just")
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