Posted on 02/17/2013 9:28:56 AM PST by LouAvul
I've damaged my hearing from unprotected shooting. Now, everything I've read insists I wear both earplugs and muffs while shooting.
I also read that people are using electronic muffs for hunting so they can hear game movement.
If muffs and plugs are necessary to protect our hearing, how is it that electronic muffs, alone, are sufficient?
Thanks.
Also, I have a pair of Howard Leight Impact Sports muffs and wore them yesterday for coyote hunting.
I discharged my 223 and must not have had a good "weld" on my left ear because there was a slight "ringing" after the shot that didn't last long.
I say it didn't last long because it blended in real well with the nonstop "ringing" (tinnitis) I have anyway.
Walker Game Ears $279.00. Buy the best and you won’t have a problem. You can get them at Cabelas.
I know NOTHING about those particular ear muffs, but typically so many fewer rounds are discharged when hunting, than when on the range, that the total exposure to hearing is much less. And you are somewhat less likely to have other shooters near you.
I’ve always used electronic ear muffs, sometimes turned on and sometimes not, and my hearing is exceptionally good. However, I have a good fit. I have ear plugs that I tried a few times, but didn’t like the feel and they didn’t seem to be needed.
I have a pretty bad case of tinnitus also. It acts up the most when I am stressed or don’t get enough sleep and also when I have been exposed to loud noises. There is a pretty big difference in ear muffs. Sometimes out at the range I do wear both muffs and plugs especially when I or someone else is shooting something really loud.
I have some Peltor ear muffs that are considerably more effective than the ones I picked up for a dollar or two at Harbor Freight. I would assume that the same variability goes for the electronic muffs. Price may not be the best indicator of effectiveness, so I too will be anxiously awaiting a response to your question.
Mostly Sporting Clays here, used a variety of foam plugs until they became uncomfortable. Had a local guy mold custom silicone plugs that fill the ear canal. Most comfortable ever! First time out I wore them for 5 hours and hardly noticed. Granted you can’t hear much else going on, but I think they also make some with the electronic protection installed.
Wow, you’re in rough shape !
A friend of mine deals with Tinnitus. It’s a living hell. My parents are both deaf from loud music in the 70s. My father has some crazy, $5000 hearing system and my mother just deals with it.
I swore to never go through that. I’m 36 and I have perfect hearing (Off the charts). That said, I often do activities that are ear damaging (Driving a convertible, loud muscle cars, jeeps with the tops off, and shooting every chance I get)
I carry around several styles of ear plugs on me at all times. I drive my car with ear plugs, and I’m frequently seen outdoors with earplugs in, even when the occasion doesn’t really call for it.
I get my earplugs at a local motorcycle shop. I have learned that they are rated for specific frequencies depending on their material. I frequently use the “Skull plugs” at the range, and the “booger” style plugs on the road.
I’ve also become familiar with their fit and resistance, and I keep my left one in, and my right one out (Or vice versa, depending on what hand is free). If I’m shooting in the woods where the gun fire is predictable, I’ll reach up real quick and push one in further to close the canal. When the shooting stops, I rub my lobe and the ear plug frees up enough to hear. I have never used an electronic muff at the range though.
Often times a walk-in medical clinic will clean out my ears with a deep procedure (It’s painful as hell) I go through that about once a year. I will weekly clean my ears with a drugstore soak, and I’ll swab my ears throughout the day about 3 times. I also have 8 ear piercings, so I clean those out frequently throughout the day as well.
All of this is because my parents have this loss of hearing, and it’s a pain in the ass - truly. People talk to them with malice (I lost my hearing once due to an infection - And yes, people treat you like shit when you can’t hear). All of these have taught me to be vigilant with my hearing.
Until nerve death occurs in the timpanic membrane, all of this hearing damage IS (likely) undoable. You can heal and regain a lot of that sensitivity back.
I damaged my hearing when I was young and had not heard about hearing loss from shooting. Actually I failed my draft physical because of my hearing.
When plinking, target shooting etc. I would wear as much as is reasonable. Although it probably does a tiny amount of damage when hunting I still don’t wear protection then.
At 140 dBA noise causes immediate injury to almost any unprotected ear.
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB.
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB.
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB.
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB. In 18" barrel 163.2dB.
.375 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB.
.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB. 26" barrel 150.25dB. 18" barrel 156.30dB.
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB. 22" barrel 154.75dB.
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB. 26" barrel 156.10dB. 18" barrel 161.50dB.
.25 ACP 155.0 dB.
.32 LONG 152.4 dB.
.32 ACP 153.5 dB.
.380 157.7 dB.
I can't afford to lose any more hearing, if it can be helped.
I wear military earplugs and am happy with them. don’t bother looking for them at an Army/navy store, order a couple of pairs on-line.
I consider myself lucky. I’ve been playing heavy metal professionally for over 25 years and rarely wore earplugs. Had stacks of Marshalls behind me. No problems. Now that I’m older I do wear earplugs, always military ones, never the crap foam ones.
I’ve actually been meaning to ask this question for some time now but don’t like vanities too much so I held off.
I wonder what, if anything, is used for hearing protection in combat? I never see any being used by our troops and the volume must be unbelievable! I know communication is obviously important in combat as well, so a soldier has to be able to hear. I don’t get it. How is it done? Do soldiers just go without and blow their ears out and hope it comes back after some time?
There really is no one great design/brand/model in sound-cancelling electronic hearing protection, I'm afraid.
I can at least tell you the model that's been widely adopted by the US military: Peltor SwatTac MT15H68FB-08.
Personally, I don't have any electronic hearing protection. I have custom molded earplugs because I suffer from Tinnitus like you do. These are the best but they have their downside too.
WHAT?
"If muffs and plugs are necessary to protect our hearing, how is it that electronic muffs, alone, are sufficient?"
ABOUT TWENTY 'TIL.
I use my original pair of earplugs from 1979 that I was issued in Basic Training at Ft Leonardwood. They are not as orange as they used to be and the clear plastic case has changed to a brownish color but they still work as good as when they were issued. Depending on what I shoot I will use the plugs, muffs or both.
When target shooting I always double up on my hearing protection, ear plugs and ear muffs.
Some of my handguns are extremely loud, such as my J frame S&W snubbie when shooting +P loads (or even target loads.)
When hunting, I use these earplugs that have a valve in them. It allows normal hearing, but attenuates loud bangs. A deer rifle is not as loud to the shooter as many handguns are due to the long barrel.
Also, when target shooting, I am burning through 100-150 rounds of ammo. (Or used to before the current madness. I’m not burning up my stocks until I know I can replace them.)
Deer hunting is a shot, maybe two.
All good reasons to double up on hearing protection at the range, especially an indoor range.
MidwayUSA Ultimate 10 by Peltor
On sale for 17.99 this month (plus shipping, so add on a lot more stuff to spread it out).
www.midwayusa.com
I wear these when reading in the house to dull (almost eliminate) the TV when others are watching. And any other noisy place - got more than one pair.
I'm looking at those online. Their configuration (bulky at the bottom) would absolutely prevent a good cheek weld on the gun stock. Even mine (Howard Leight Impact Sports) bump and "knock" against the stock a great deal.
On a side not, I sometimes put the muffs on when I go to bed, to just lay there and listen to what I wasn't hearing ebfore retiring for the night. That's how I discovered that my neighbor takes his cell phone to his back deck when he wants to talk out of earshot to his family. His deck is about fifty or so feet from by bedroom window. The muffs are also good at the range since you hear everything except the booms. ... Electrons travel quite a bit faster than sound waves, even close by sound waves.
I have tinnitus in both ears. The damage to my hearing was caused by industrial noise when I worked as a computer technician in a manufacturing environment. We never wore hearing protection back then. It wasn’t till later in life when my hearing began to fade. The hearing in my right ear is only about 20% and my left about 65%. When it comes to shooting I wear a good hearing protection. I use the Peltor Sport-Tac II headset. It does a great job of dampening the shot noise. You’ll never be able to reduce the noise by 100% due to bone conduction noise but the sound you’ll hear is below 80db which is consider normal hearing. Don’t take chances with your hearing, buy the best you can afford. Your ears are worth it.
According to Board Certified Audiologist and TInnitus Doc, and a shooter:
At over 130dB, there is sufficient time delay in the activation of the electronic hearing protection, to warrant wearing the foam plugs too.
NEVER USED HEARING PROTECTION! NEVER SAW A REAL NEED!
Eh?
sound like you treat your parents like $hit also...sad
and any ENT will tell you not to put anything in your ears other than your elbow!!! and I bet one day you also will be deaf..so enjoy your life...
p.s. wish your parents knew about cochlear implants..they really are wonderful for those of us who lived in a silent world..WE HEAR YOU NOW...becareful what you say...it can come back to bite you in the butt...
‘Wud eh say?’
Mark of a soldier to have some/a lot of hearing loss right around the decibel range of an M60. They used to call it machine gun ears.
All joking aside, you don’t want a constant ringing in your ears for your entire adult life.
fewer rounds are discharged when hunting,
Plus at ranges you typically have hard surfaces (walls, floors, etc) and they are typically enclosed. Even outdoor ranges have more hard surfaces then normal hunting areas. Thus in a hunting environment there is less sound bouncing back at you; it can disburse.
Most people use no hearing protection when hunting, with no ill effects.
I’ve been shooting for years; not familiar with the muffs you mentioned.
Normally we stick with foam plugs. Roll them between your fingers till they’re thin, then insert into your ears until they’re just inside the canal that a q-tip normally stops at. If they fill that inner canal after expanding you should be fine. Have never used both at the same time, and have yet to meet a round that requires it (including 12 gauge, 223, 454).
If you don’t like (or can’t use) the foam plugs correctly, find a $30-$50 (bare minimum) pair of electronic muffs. Using the electronic aspect is optional, but if you get into that price range they should be good enough that they “weld” to your head.
There again you run into complications if you have an oddly shaped / too big / too small head, so it may take some experimenting. It’s easy to know when they fit however; you’ll get some suction on your ears when you take them off.
Electronic muffs over foam plugs work quite well, if you turn the volume all the way up. Range commands can still be heard through the plugs due to the amplification, but you have added protection from the damaging sound levels. Quality electronic muffs are a must.
Outdoors I wear one or the other, usually, because the sound disperses a bit better. Indoors, I always wear both, although I can never hear anyone talking to me. I went to an indoor range once and only wore muffs. I literally couldn’t sleep that night for the ringing in my ears. My buddy who went with me had the same issue. I believe it’s because the sound is more concentrated indoors.
It might sound odd, but I recommend ‘Earplanes’.
These are made to prevent problems with your ears on an airplane...not specifically intended as hearing protection. But they do offer great hearing protection.
Essentially, they look alot like a typical earplug - but once you put them in your ear, you ‘pump’ them. There is a little b-b check valve, which allows this pumping to create a vacuum between the plug and the ear.
The result is either you have an air tight seal...or you don’t. And you will be very aware if the seal is no good. The vacuum aspect of this also prevents them from shaking out, as you walk/shoot.
Here’s the skinny...
First off, if you have hearing damage/tinnitus like I do, find the highest NRR rated muffs you can find. I use 37db muffs.
NRR rating means that under the best circumstances, you can lower say a 150db sound to about 113db. It does not mean you lower sounds to 37db.
Second, double up on the protection. I use 26NRR rated foam plugs. But importantly, doubling up does not mean a 37+26NRR gives you 63db noise reduction. It helps a bit, but more than likely you aren’t getting more than 45NRR at best, probably less.
Third, bone induction. This is the physics of sound energy. It will travel through your cranium and jaw bones to the ear and can cause damage. There is no real way around this unless you wear a full noise reduction helmet.
I read alot of recommendations for this or that hearing protection. You should simply be concerned with NRR ratings and less the brand. But make a choice between quality of construction and cost, I’ve found some cheaper brands with higher 30+NRR as nice as some more expensive ones with low 20NRR ratings.
Last, Electronic muffs are usually a big compromise between a lower NRR rating and their ability to hear normal volume sounds. Electronic muffs DO NOT cancel all sounds out as some believe. Useful for some scenarios where its really important to hear commands, etc...but in most cases you lose alot of NRR protection. For continuous range shooting I avoid these and just increase my situational awareness.
My Dad lost the hearing in one ear in WW2 from the guns on his ship.
I’ve never met a Vet who doesn’t have some hearing loss.
A cost of war almost completely overlooked.
They work off of the active canceling principle.
That’s about all I really know on them.
When I was in the military, the state safety office said that 85 db protection was the best anyone ever made. Get triple flange protection, as they also stop the pressure blast better than ear muffs. I use both when shooting targets and triple flange only when dove hunting.
WOW ! Ok, yeah... you read me wrong.
I said that OTHERS treat the deaf like shit. Not I, I love my parents and you would be lucky to have a son such as I.
When I lost my hearing for a few days, I saw the effect it had on strangers. When you ask someone to merely repeat themselves they flip a switch and turn into @$$es.
As far as implants, I support my mother on her retirement, and dementia is difficult to deal with from all sides. My father has extensive technology in his ear, and his profession as a 25 year firefighter affected his decision to have a cochlear implant, although he and I have worked at the workbench to design and develop a subdermal hearing aid. We will probably continue when he retires.
So, Please take a moment to read into a post before exploding at me. Thanks.
As a child, my Mother used to sit on her grandfather’s knee and listen to his Civil War stories. He could hardly hear her though for he was mostly deaf from gun and cannon fire. I have a photo of him holding one of those old fashion horns to his ear. He died in 1928 at age 92.
It would be more practical to ask an electronic engineer about that. If the final stage of the amplifier cannot deliver damaging power then no amount of input will change that fact.
Often limiting is done by diodes, alone or in an active circuit. Diodes clamp the signal within nanoseconds. For audio frequencies this means "instantly."
I always use earmuffs; I have an excellent pair of passive earmuffs, very light and with high attenuation. And I have a pair of electronic earmuffs; the attenuation of those is not as good just due to manufacturing. But the amplifier is flawless, and I can hear more in them than without. This is important because you need to know about vehicles and people that are moving nearby.
I never doubled foam plugs and earmuffs. But the loudest calibers I have are .223 and 9mm. Hunting with 9mm is not something I practice often, to great disappointment of the game.
Huh? What did you say?
The only time I always double up is when shooting indoors, otherwise I just use my electronic Peltoirs. Which lets me hear any commands by the range officer.
I also double up if I have the misfortune of getting stuck next to a big magnum rifle with a muzzlebrake on the range. No point in developing a flinch under those circumstances.
I never wear them while hunting because you’ll sweat like a pig in a good fitting pair of muffs with even the lightest exertion. I just except the minor amount of damage a couple of hunting shots a year doles out.
A good fitting pair of muffs or properly inserted foamies are all you really need to protect your hearing. Doubling up is more for just comfort than hearing protection.
Yes, but that “electrical engineer” would be making poor assumptions about the operation of the ear muffs.
There is a micro-second before the cutoff mechanism is activated.
During that period there are potentially damaging decibel levels.
Unless you bought this site, it’s really none of your business, is it?
The way you actually hear something is that ganglia (small hairs in your inner ear) vibrate from the result of moving air hitting them, transmitting a message to your brain. When the ganglion are assaulted by an extremely loud stimulus (e.g. crash, jet engine, gun shot), they get "pushed down" a little. They never "stand back up" to their full extension. People lose their hearing as they get older as a result of continued assaults upon the ganglion, pushing them down more and more each time. This results in hearing loss, the ganglion are no longer able to effectively transmit a given message. The loss of frequency (pitch) recognition can be segments of the full spectrum, all hertz between low and high.
Facts on noise levels:
1. Decibels measure sound pressure and are logarithmic. That means that only a 3db increase almost doubles sound pressure, a 6db increase quadruples sound pressure, etc.
2. Gradual hearing loss may occur after prolonged exposure to 90 decibels or above.
3. Exposure to 100 decibels for more than 15 minutes can cause hearing loss.
4. Exposure to 110 decibels for more than a minute can cause permanent hearing loss.
5. At 140 dBA noise causes immediate injury to almost any unprotected ear.
6. There is also the more extreme ‘acoustic trauma’, which is an immediate loss of hearing after a sudden, exceptionally loud noise such as an explosion.
Comparative noise levels and length of time exposed to cause permanent damage
Jet engine taking off 140 dB Instant damage
Thunder/Ambulance siren 119 dB 3 minutes Hammer drill 113 dB 15 minutes
Chain saw/Earphones/Concert 110 dB 30 minutes
Bull Dozer 105 dB 1 hour
Tractor/Power tools 96 dB 4 hour
Hairdryer/lawnmower 90 dB 8 hours
Noise levels of firearms:
.22 caliber rifle 130dB
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB.
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB. .308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB. .30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB. In 18" barrel 163.2dB.
.375 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB.
.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB. 26" barrel 150.25dB. 18" barrel 156.30dB.
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB. 22" barrel 154.75dB.
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB. 26" barrel 156.10dB. 18" barrel 161.50dB.
.25 ACP 155.0 dB.
.32 LONG 152.4 dB.
.32 ACP 153.5 dB.
.380 157.7 dB.
9mm 159.8 dB.
.38 S&W 153.5 dB.
.38 Spl 156.3 dB.
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB.
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB.
.44 Spl 155.9 dB.
.45 ACP 157.0 dB.
.45 COLT 154.7 dB.
Properly fitted earplugs or muffs reduce noise 15 to 30 dB. The better earplugs and muffs are approximately equal in sound reductions, although earplugs are better for low frequency noise and earmuffs for high frequency noise.
Using muffs and plugs together: Take the higher of the two and add 5 dB. 30 plug with 20 muff gives an effective NRR of 35.
If you are shooting by yourself, with plugs and muffs on, you get to shoot up to a thousand rounds without damage (louder ammo/gun and the allowable drops by a factor of 5). Shoot with other people and you have to add all the rounds shot cumulatively (10 people shoot 100 rounds and everybody's done for the day; toss a handcannon or 30 cal rifle in and you're back down to 200 rounds cumulative). If you shoot on an indoor range then all the rounds fired while you are on the range go into your total. So you can see that it doesn't take very long on a range to have a thousand rounds popped off around you.
Don't forget about bone conduction of concusive sound waves. The mastoid bone will transmit the sound vibrations directly to your inner ear where the cochela and the hearing nerves resides. Constant exposure to this kind of concusive sound wave, (e.g. 50 BMG, industrial heavy machinery) will result in the degradation of your hearing quality. Even with ear muffs, bone conduction is a big factor in hearing.
You didn’t ask, but... don’t ever go to a loud rock ‘n roll concert. I’ve been a shooter all my adult life, and I acquired a case of tinnitus about 10 years ago from loud amplified music.
Lou,
I have a similar question, but was wondering what people do if they wear hearing aids.
If ear protectors are put on while wearing the aids, the aids squeal ferociously.
If the aids are taken out, the hearing loss is so bad that NOTHING can be heard.
How much amplification do those electronic protection actor’s provide?
I recall taking a handgun class and had to take my aids out in order to use the hearing protectors (not amplified).
With the protectors on, I could hear nothing at all.
The range instructor had to tap me on the shoulder to notify me of anything.
Your info will be greatly appreciated; I am taking my CHL class in a month.
Not sure how the word ‘actors’ got in my post ; it shouldn’t be in there :0
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