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Bonds, Clemens Denied Spot In Hall Of Fame
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com ^ | 01/09/2013 | n/a

Posted on 01/09/2013 11:12:23 AM PST by massmike

Baseball writers didn't elect Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens into the Hall of Fame on Wednesday, making an apparent statement on their suspected use of performance-enhancing drugs.

In fact, they failed to elect anyone, something that has only happened twice in the Hall's history.

Since 1965, the only years the writers didn't elect a candidate were when Yogi Berra topped the 1971 vote by appearing on 67 percent of the ballots cast and when Phil Niekro headed the 1996 ballot at 68 percent. Both were chosen the following years when they achieved the 75 percent necessary for election.

Also on the ballot for the first time were Sammy Sosa and Mike Piazza, power hitters whose statistics have been questioned because of the Steroids Era, and Craig Biggio, 20th on the career list with 3,060 hits — all for the Houston Astros. Curt Schilling, 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA in postseason play, was another ballot rookie.

Several holdovers from last year also were on the 37-player ballot, including Jack Morris (67 percent), Jeff Bagwell (56 percent), Lee Smith (51 percent) and Tim Raines (49 percent).

In advance of Wednesday's announcement, The Baseball Think Factory website compiled votes by writers who made their opinions public and with 159 ballots had everyone falling short of admission. Biggio was at 69 percent, followed by Morris (63), Bagwell (61), Raines (61), Piazza (60), Bonds (43) and Clemens (43).

(Excerpt) Read more at nbcsports.msnbc.com ...


TOPICS: Sports
KEYWORDS: baseballhof; sourcetitlenoturl
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1 posted on 01/09/2013 11:12:31 AM PST by massmike
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To: massmike
Craig Biggio,class act!

One of the few loyal players that stayed with one team his whole career, moving from position to position, whatever was asked of him.

2 posted on 01/09/2013 11:15:54 AM PST by TexasCajun
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To: massmike

no one was selected, which ought to be the rule, rather than the exception.

flooding the hall of fame with, not to put too fine a point on it, very good, yet not truly great players simply cheapens the HoF.


3 posted on 01/09/2013 11:17:05 AM PST by JohnBrowdie (http://forum.stink-eye.net)
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To: TexasCajun

Fully agree. Biggio won’t be kept out the HOF long.


4 posted on 01/09/2013 11:19:55 AM PST by catfish1957 (My dream for hope and change is to see the punk POTUS in prison for treason)
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To: JohnBrowdie
Yeah, there was a thing on the radio this morning touting Jack Morris for the HoF.

He was a good pitcher, but 254 wins shouldn't get him in, AFAIC.

Biggio, maybe. 3000 hits ought to get him in. That, and he was a class act.

Don't get me started on Clemmons, Bonds, Sosa, et al.

5 posted on 01/09/2013 11:24:07 AM PST by wbill
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: massmike
[snore]
7 posted on 01/09/2013 11:26:11 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: massmike

Biggio deserves the HOF. I guess he didn’t play for the right team.

From an ESPN article this week by Tim Kurkjian:

Biggio had 3,060 hits, 21st most ever, more than Rod Carew. Biggo had more hits in the live-ball era (since 1920) than any player whose primary position was second base. Biggio had the fifth-most doubles, more than Hank Aaron. He had the 31st most extra-base hits, more than Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Al Kaline and Mickey Mantle. He scored the 14th-most runs, more than Ted Williams and Carl Yastrzemski. And Biggio’s 146 runs scored in 1997 are tied for the second most in a season in the expansion era (since 1961). He played in more winning games than George Brett. The list of players in history with 250 home runs and 400 stolen bases are Bonds, Bobby Bonds, Rickey Henderson, Joe Morgan and Biggio. That’s it. That’s the list. He is one of four infielders ever to have a 20-homer, 50-steal season.

Biggio’s career WAR of 62.1 is comparable to Alomar (62.9) and Sandberg (64.9), but Biggio accumulated it while playing three premium defensive positions: catcher, second base and center field. He and Tom Daly (1895; he threw under-handed on long throws from second base to first) are the only players to play a full season at second base and a full season behind the plate. Biggio is the only player to also have played a full season in center field; he is the only player in history to record 1,000 at-bats as a catcher, a second baseman and a center fielder. He won four consecutive Gold Gloves at second base. When he arrived in the major leagues as a catcher in 1988 at age 22, Nolan Ryan said he loved throwing to him because he knew he could bounce a two-strike curveball knowing that the maniacal little guy with a size 7 hat behind the plate would hurl his body in front of the ball.


8 posted on 01/09/2013 11:27:10 AM PST by Texas56
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To: massmike

and now the writers have had their ‘that’ll show em’ moment. We’ll see how long it takes for someone from the ‘rood era to be elected


9 posted on 01/09/2013 11:27:39 AM PST by Nifster
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To: massmike

It gets even harder next year. Greg Maddux will likely get in, and there are other first-time names next year who will draw a goodly number of votes.

Morris looks lose enough to make it next time or soon after.

The HOF won’t include the all-time hit king or the all-time homerun champion?


10 posted on 01/09/2013 11:30:06 AM PST by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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Lighten up man. Baseball has and always will be a great outlet for our society. It survived during WWI, WW2, and the depression.

I am just as disgusted as anyone else with the direction of the country, but it doesn't mean I am going cry and moan 24/7.

11 posted on 01/09/2013 11:30:15 AM PST by catfish1957 (My dream for hope and change is to see the punk POTUS in prison for treason)
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To: wbill

“He was a good pitcher, but 254 wins shouldn’t get him in, AFAIC.”

I am not disputing your rationale but as of today there are 21 pitchers with less wins then Morris in the HOF.


12 posted on 01/09/2013 11:31:21 AM PST by Cyman
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To: massmike

Hall is worthless until Charlie Hustle is included.


13 posted on 01/09/2013 11:31:37 AM PST by BO Stinkss
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To: Texas56

If Biggo is good enough, so is Tim Raines. Nobody steals bases anymore. Shocking, but it takes someone getting on base, then the ability to do it. If Ron Santo can get in so can Tim.


14 posted on 01/09/2013 11:32:18 AM PST by Theoria
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To: wbill

<< Don’t get me started on Clemmons, Bonds, Sosa, et al. >>

I (kind of) feel the same way as you do. However...

Hank Aaron recently admitted to doing amphetimines when he was a player; Willy Mays did them, too.

Babe Ruth played when “negro” players weren’t allowed to play; Gaylord Perry threw a spitball, (an “illegal” pitch.)

I’m personally VERY happy that Bonds and Clemens were denied, because they not only OBVIOUSLY did steroids, but they are arrogant bastards, as well. But, if Aaron, Mays, et al made their way in doing illegal things, how does one justify keeping Bonds and Clemens out?

I can’t answer that. I’m just asking.


15 posted on 01/09/2013 11:32:43 AM PST by ObamaMustGo2012 (Obama Must Go In 2012)
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To: Cyman

Morris should be in based on Game 7 of the 1991 World Series alone.


16 posted on 01/09/2013 11:34:45 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: massmike

Biggio....will make it next year.


17 posted on 01/09/2013 11:34:58 AM PST by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: Texas56
I have been a lifelong Astros fan, and miss the Killer B era badly. One of my favorite facts about Biggio is he pretty much turned down about $20M over 5 years when he stayed in Houston rather than signing as a free agent with the Rockies.

Biggio also may have been the most community minded player of his era too. Remember the little sun that he wore on his hat until the Commish made him take it off?

But then don't get me started on that slimey bastard slug Bud Selig. I hope that SOB burns in hell.

18 posted on 01/09/2013 11:37:01 AM PST by catfish1957 (My dream for hope and change is to see the punk POTUS in prison for treason)
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To: TexasCajun

Biggio will make it eventually.


19 posted on 01/09/2013 11:38:59 AM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: massmike

Of that bunch, Schilling and Biggio seem to be the best choices.


20 posted on 01/09/2013 11:41:26 AM PST by muir_redwoods (Don't fire until you see the blue of their helmets)
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To: massmike

Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens shouldn’t worry too much, though. I’m sure their accomplishments will be properly memorialized in nearby dark alleys.


21 posted on 01/09/2013 11:41:53 AM PST by kevkrom (If a wise man has an argument with a foolish man, the fool only rages or laughs...)
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To: BO Stinkss

If they let ANY of the Steroids gang in then Rose deserves to be in the HOF. He only bet on himself to win.


22 posted on 01/09/2013 11:43:33 AM PST by The Klingon
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To: TBP
The HOF won’t include the all-time hit king or the all-time homerun champion?

If Bonds hadn't been doping and caught lying about it, he be in the HoF, but now his chances of getting there are the same as Pete Rose's. Good. "Cheaters Never Prosper." I'd like to see Sosa barred as well for using corked bats.

23 posted on 01/09/2013 11:44:13 AM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: ObamaMustGo2012
Well, there was never a more arrogant bastard in history than Ty Cobb. And steroids were a fact of the game a decade ago, with pitchers and hitters alike using them - including many who have yet to admit to it.

Bonds and Clemens should get 100% of the first-ballot vote from any objective observers. Both had Hall-of-Fame career numbers before steroid use ever became part of the game. But sportswriters are legendary for their desire to serve as moral police...look how Keith Olbermann turned out. :)

24 posted on 01/09/2013 11:45:00 AM PST by Mr. Jeeves (CTRL-GALT-DELETE)
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To: The Klingon
He only bet on himself to win.

Not a good thing when you are a manager....sometimes it's better to lose a game in the long run, for example abusing a pitcher, or using your closer 7 days in row, just because you have money riding on the game.

25 posted on 01/09/2013 11:46:31 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: BO Stinkss

+1


26 posted on 01/09/2013 11:47:23 AM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: catfish1957
It survived during WWI, WW2, and the depression.

"...The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces. People will come Ray. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good and that could be again. Oh...people will come Ray. People will most definitely come.”

27 posted on 01/09/2013 11:48:10 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (Humans have eliminated natural selection. Morons are now a protected species. They breed and vote.)
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To: Cyber Liberty

Mike Piazza is the greatest right handed hitting catcher of all time and he gets left off 43% of the ballots? There has never been one allegation against him regarding steroid use. Lot’s of “rumors” but NO ALLEGATIONS! I guess he’s guilty of being really good while others were cheating?


28 posted on 01/09/2013 11:49:16 AM PST by cumbo78
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To: The Klingon

Rose would never lie.


29 posted on 01/09/2013 11:49:16 AM PST by Boston Blackie
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To: ObamaMustGo2012

Multiple wrongs don’t make a right.


30 posted on 01/09/2013 11:50:48 AM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: dfwgator
Morris should be in based on Game 7 of the 1991 World Series alone.

+1 to that. And I was rooting for the Braves in that game.

31 posted on 01/09/2013 11:52:06 AM PST by kevkrom (If a wise man has an argument with a foolish man, the fool only rages or laughs...)
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To: massmike

tune of Rice a Roni Jingle:

Bonds, the phony
The San Francisco cheat!


32 posted on 01/09/2013 11:52:19 AM PST by raccoonradio
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To: massmike

Kind of silly. Even if steroids never exited Bonds and Clemens would still have been two of the top 25 greatest players of all time. And the Hall is packed with players who were juiced on amphetamines for years. They’ll get in eventually, as they should. Pete Rose should too, btw, and it is an obscenity to the game that he isn’t already.


33 posted on 01/09/2013 11:55:10 AM PST by montag813
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To: cumbo78

I really hate self righteous sport writers. In the sports media when it comes PED’s you are presumed guilty until proven innocent.


34 posted on 01/09/2013 11:55:35 AM PST by ConservativeTeen (Proud Right Wing Extremist)
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To: Mr. Jeeves

Other people cheated, so Bonds & Clemons get passes? OJ Simpson got away with murdering two people, so that means it should be 100% OK if I murder people too? Is that what you think?


35 posted on 01/09/2013 11:56:14 AM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: catfish1957

I agree about the Killer B era.

Biggio is very community minded. His work with the Sunshine Kids (kids with cancer) has gone on for decades.

The thing I always liked about Biggio when he played was that he was an “all out” player. He NEVER trotted to first base. He always ran full-throttle. When he came to the ballpark it was to play, not just to collect a paycheck. When he left the field after a game his uniform was always the dirtiest.


36 posted on 01/09/2013 11:56:52 AM PST by Texas56
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To: cumbo78

Maybe Piazza should get in, I don’t enough about him. But the obvious cheaters should be kept out.


37 posted on 01/09/2013 11:58:32 AM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: massmike; All

From my understanding, Bonds deserves to be in the Hall of Fame based on his pre-1999 record.

Everything I’ve heard indicates that Bonds did not start “bulking up” until 1999. I could be wrong, of course.

Bonds’ record through 1998 is truly great and easily HOF worthy. You could cut him off after 1995 and he would still be HOF worthy.


38 posted on 01/09/2013 11:58:32 AM PST by EveningStar
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To: cumbo78

famed moment in Yanks-Mets series (’oo?); Clemens pitch, Piazza breaks bat; Clemens throws part of bat at him.

“I thought it was the ball.”

>>The last time they had met, in July of 2000, only three months earlier, Clemens buried a fastball into Piazza’s skull. Everyone in the Mets’ organization and their fans were fuming. Everyone on the other side of this equation was stunned ... and a bit worried about the form of retaliation ... and when it would arrive....He swings and boom! — the bat explodes into three pieces. The handle stays in Piazza’s hands. The middle of the bat flies into foul territory off the first-base side. The barrel, the biggest part of the jagged bat, bounces to the left side of the infield, between the mound and first base.

Clemens rushes in to field what he thinks is the ball. At least that’s what he says later. Then, to the astonishment of millions of people, once he realizes it’s a piece of a bat, and not the ball, Clemens angrily flings the bat toward foul territory on the first-base side — right in the path of Piazza, who is running toward first. Piazza is stunned, confused and a little disoriented because of all the flying bat pieces, yet he is certain Clemens is throwing the bat purposely at him. A stunned Piazza begins walking toward Clemens with a perplexed expression. “What’s your problem?” Piazza yells.

The moment becomes highly intense as the space between the two players rapidly closes. But Clemens, refusing to acknowledge Piazza, walks toward home plate, telling umpire Charlie Reliford, “Give me a ball.” Meanwhile, as both dugouts empty, Reliford stands between the players, keeping order out of the potential chaos. Piazza, maintaining his composure under the most bizarre of inflammable situations, returns to home plate and Clemens returns to the mound.

On the next pitch, Piazza grounds out to second, and Clemens races off the mound, into the dugout, up the runway and into the clubhouse. His emotions were running so high that he had to find a way to calm himself down.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/espn25/story?page=moments/95


39 posted on 01/09/2013 11:59:23 AM PST by raccoonradio
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To: ObamaMustGo2012
I’m personally VERY happy that Bonds and Clemens were denied, because they not only OBVIOUSLY did steroids, but they are arrogant bastards,

And Ty Cobb was a son of a bitch. So what? This isn't the Boy Scouts.

40 posted on 01/09/2013 12:01:05 PM PST by montag813
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To: raccoonradio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slf380uxU0s

raw video from a fan in the stands


41 posted on 01/09/2013 12:02:08 PM PST by raccoonradio
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To: montag813
Even if steroids never exited Bonds and Clemens would still have been two of the top 25 greatest players of all time.

I happen to agree with that. Makes it even sadder they threw their chances away by cheating. They didn't have to cheat to win, yet they cheated anyway. To me, that's unforgivable.

42 posted on 01/09/2013 12:02:08 PM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: Cyber Liberty
Other people cheated, so Bonds & Clemons get passes? OJ Simpson got away with murdering two people, so that means it should be 100% OK if I murder people too? Is that what you think?

If you are trying for the murderer hall of fame, then yes. Clemens and Bonds are assholes and "cheated", but their records put them in the Hall, without question.

43 posted on 01/09/2013 12:04:02 PM PST by montag813
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To: montag813; Mr. Jeeves; Cyber Liberty

OJ is in the football HoF. I’ve seen Bonds murder baseballs. And Clemons’ fastball? That was murder, too. Put these guys in the HoF.


44 posted on 01/09/2013 12:14:57 PM PST by bigheadfred
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To: bigheadfred; montag813

I’m sure someday it will happen. When 75% of the sportswriters realize rules are for saps.


45 posted on 01/09/2013 12:22:01 PM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: bigheadfred

OJ got away with the murders. That was the point you may have missed.


46 posted on 01/09/2013 12:23:13 PM PST by Cyber Liberty (Obama considers the Third World morally superior to the United States.)
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To: Texas56

Biggio will get in soon, possibly next year. Certain writers believe that only the elite among the HOF deserve to make it on the first ballot. Several who left him off for that reason, will vote for him next year.


47 posted on 01/09/2013 12:23:24 PM PST by Above My Pay Grade
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To: cumbo78

I agree on Piazza. I don’t think speculation alone should keep him out. In defense of the writers, I can understand them waiting a few years on guys like Piazza and Bagwell, just in case some real evidence or credibe allegations of PED use emerges.


48 posted on 01/09/2013 12:28:12 PM PST by Above My Pay Grade
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To: Mr. Jeeves
Bonds and Clemens should get 100% of the first-ballot vote from any objective observers.

Does objective mean any observer who agrees with you? I wouldn't vote for either Bonds or Clemens. Integrity is part of the process for admission into the hall of fame, and both of them took steroids and cheated. They wouldn't get my vote.

steroids were a fact of the game a decade ago

Yes, but not everyone took steroids. The players that took steroids cheated the other players. That's not fair, and it's not an excuse to say that a bunch of players were doing it. Doesn't matter.

Both had Hall-of-Fame career numbers before steroid use ever became part of the game.

I'm not so sure about that. There's never been a hint that Fred McGriff was on steroids, and he's not a HOFer (didn't even get close this year). So he's a pretty good baseline comparison. Let's assume that Bonds started taking steroids in 2000, the year in which his homers increased by 15 to a then career high 49 (the next year, he hit 73). So we're comparing McGriff to Bonds's career, 1986 through 2000.

Home Runs:

McGriff - 493

Bonds - 445

Batting Avg.

McGriff - .284 (including some crappy years at the end)

Bonds - .289

Slugging

McGriff - .509

Bonds - .567

RBIs

McGriff - 1550

Bonds - 1405

Doubles

McGriff - 441

Bonds - 451

Total Bases

McGriff - 4458

Bonds - 4228

Pretty similar. And McGriff got 20% of the vote this year. Where Bonds tends to dominate McGriff is on walks. But even in looking at singular dominant seasons, the two are pretty similar:

Prior to 2000, Bonds lead the league in home runs once (1993). McGriff did it twice (89, 92). Neither Bonds (pre-2000) or McGriff won the batting title. Bonds led the league in total bases once (1993), McGriff never got higher than third.

It's hard to say that pre-roid Bonds is a lock HOFer, especially given that McGriff is basically not even in the conversation. I will say that I think McGriff should be in the HOF, but McGriff is exactly the type of player that the steroid era has cheated. 493 home runs should have been a lock before steroids, but 500 home runs is considered a pretty pedestrian number these days, thanks to cheaters like Bonds, ARod, and Sammy Sosa.

49 posted on 01/09/2013 12:32:31 PM PST by Publius Valerius
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To: EveningStar

>>>From my understanding, Bonds deserves to be in the Hall of Fame based on his pre-1999 record.

Everything I’ve heard indicates that Bonds did not start “bulking up” until 1999. I could be wrong, of course.

Bonds’ record through 1998 is truly great and easily HOF worthy. You could cut him off after 1995 and he would still be HOF worthy.<<<

So, if a man made $500 million dollars honestly, but then robbed orphans and widows to make his next $500 million, we should consider him a “Hall of Fame” businessman, and not hold the stealing against him? After all, he was already rich when he started stealing.


50 posted on 01/09/2013 12:34:39 PM PST by Above My Pay Grade
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