Posted on 09/27/2012 8:52:38 AM PDT by Little Ray
I’m afraid I don’t get your point. The author is claiming that Muslims, as a group, dream of reinacting the Sepoy Mutiny in the West. Absolutely zero proof is provided for this.
For them to be planning this, it would require common Muslim familiarity with the tactics used by the Mutineers. But there is no evidence the Mutiny is any better remembered in the Muslim world, outside India anyway, than in the West (outside Britain).
FROM THE ARTICLE SECOND PARAGRAPH:
I have been told (by those conducting interviews with captured enemy combatants) that when we ask them “What is coming next?” they sometimes refer to the “Perfect Day.”
I do note that you have an long and consistent pattern of being a total Pollyanna when it comes to islam.
The Indian Mutiny was not pre-planned and it was not Moslem based.
It was based on that of erstwhile rulers looking to get some of their power and riches back. It had a religious dimension added due to the alleged bacon and cow fat used to grease the shell of the muskets used by the sepoys
Any reading of the Indian Mutiny will show that this was never some great "Jedi slaughter".
Just because the Sepoy Rebellion wasn't "muslim based" does NOT mean that they, who actively participated in it, couldn't learn lessons from that unsuccessful action.
I suppose next you'll insist there were no muslims in Huế, and because I said there were (I didn't!), I'm full of broncobomber, and the muslims couldn't possibly learn anything from that successful action, either.
Will you follow that up by asserting that none of the muslims infiltrated into the American heartland pose a risk?
*DOUBLE SIGH*
Iran's antagonism to the US is incidental, but they see their enemies closer to hand and it's not Israel (Israel is a nice bugbear to toss out). Iran see's itself as the natural successor to the great Achaemenid and Sassanid empires and that the cursed Arabs should bow to them and the Turkic peoples should be chased out of greater Iran (Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan) as they killed off millions of Iranis in the middle ages to take those lands
North Korea is basically insane posturing...
the Indian Mutiny was not specifically Islamic, but was limited to what is now Uttar Pradesh and Delhi areas of the gangetic basin.
the richest and most powerful Moslem ruler of India -- the Nizam of hyderabad paid no attention to them and he supported the British
He explicitly said "captured enemy combatants".
Will you argue that the militant, active combat, murderous thugs are somehow not actually part of ummah? Will you argue that of the hundreds of thousand of muslims already infiltrated into the US, not even a handful hate America unto death?
Do you seriously assert there is nothing for us to worry about, that there can't, simply can't be anyone muslim plotting the downfall of "The Great Satan"?
As to Sherman, in whom you find no flaw and in whom you are well pleased, I advise you to check, really check his history. Perhaps Pollyanna is an unacceptably harsh term. Would you prefer apologist, or voice of moderation?
Dude, your claim is that Muslims are working towards rerunning the Sepoy Mutiny. I disagreed and asked for proof.
Your “proof” is that Muslims when interrogated will refer to a “perfect day” in which all Muslims will kill as many infidels as possible.
Let us posit that this desire for a perfect day is a common, nay nearly universal, Muslim desire.
My asking for proof was with regard to whether such a perfect day has anything at all to do, in their minds, with the Sepoy Mutiny.
For which, as stated, you have still provided no proof.
This was an uprising by specifically the upper and soldierly classes in Indic nations in the gangetic plain. It was not Moslems -- the author does not seem to understand the Indian Mutiny
NOTE: we are arguing purely about the Indian Mutiny, not about the rest of what you are talking about.
Neither Sherman nor I are talking about the Moslem terrorists of today except in the context that they would have no clue about the Indian Mutiny. As Sherman pointed out, the Indian Mutiny is not remembered by Moslems...
Will you argue that the militant, active combat, murderous thugs are somehow not actually part of ummah? -- No, never said that and I say that the jihadis believe they are part of the ummah
Will you argue that of the hundreds of thousand of muslims already infiltrated into the US, not even a handful hate America unto death? -- no, I believe all Moslems, or nearly all Moslems in the US are an existential threat, just as they are to any other civilisation -- as I've argued before, Islam is a civilisational virus, destroying great civilisations. The Roman Empire didn't lose culturally until Islam came and neglected the aquaducts etc. and Yemen was prosperous until Islam... Do you seriously assert there is nothing for us to worry about, that there can't, simply can't be anyone muslim plotting the downfall of "The Great Satan"? As to Sherman, in whom you find no flaw and in whom you are well pleased, I advise you to check, really check his history. Perhaps Pollyanna is an unacceptably harsh term. Would you prefer apologist, or voice of moderation?
Will you argue that the militant, active combat, murderous thugs are somehow not actually part of ummah? -- No, never said that and I say that the jihadis believe they are part of the ummah
Will you argue that of the hundreds of thousand of muslims already infiltrated into the US, not even a handful hate America unto death? -- no, I believe all Moslems, or nearly all Moslems in the US are an existential threat, just as they are to any other civilisation -- as I've argued before, Islam is a civilisational virus, destroying great civilisations. The Roman Empire didn't lose culturally until Islam came and neglected the aquaducts etc. and Yemen was prosperous until Islam...
Do you seriously assert there is nothing for us to worry about, that there can't, simply can't be anyone muslim plotting the downfall of "The Great Satan"? -- no, I have never and do never and will never say that -- islam and moslems ARE plotting the downfall of all infidels
As to Sherman, in whom you find no flaw and in whom you are well pleased, I advise you to check, really check his history. Perhaps Pollyanna is an unacceptably harsh term. Would you prefer apologist, or voice of moderation? -- he has not in any way been an apologist for Islam. point out any cases. I find it strange that you think I don't argue with Sherman -- I do, a lot. But he focusses purely on historical and factual accuracy and in this case so do I (when it comes to history, i'm a stickler) and we discuss that
I repeat -- our argument here is about the incorrect historicity of the article's reference to the Indian Mutiny.
Some very odd commentary here.
The Book of Esther isn't part of "their" culture, it's one we share with them. In fact, I suspect it's a great deal better known in Christian circles than among Muslims. In theory Muslims venerate the Bible, in practice they generally despise it.
The Jews were not in captivity during the time of Esther. The Persians had freed them from their previous captivity under the Babylonians, and any Jews who had not returned to Israel had stayed voluntarily.
The author obviously finds something of a Perfect Day in Esther, but doesn't make clear whether it is the planned attack on Jews by anti-semites, or the Jews' successful self-defense.
In neither case does it line up with his own definition of the PD, as both were publicly proclaimed long in advance. Which kind of negates the whole "stab them in the back" approach. You didn't see the terrorists publishing their detailed plans for 9/11 early in 2001.
Just for what it’s worth, there were numerous accounts at the time of the Mutiny of mysterious events in the weeks before the Mutiny broke out.
The most famous being chapatis (sp?),which are Indian flatbreads something like tortillas being sent from village to village. This was an ancient practice and was considered to forebode great events soon to come.
But even the stories of the time do not have these events being coordinated. There was enormous pent-up anger, suspicion and frustration among the soldiers of the Raj and among large groups of the common people in north-central India. Much of it justified. The British ignored it, calm in the belief that these simple, childlike people could never effectively resist their domination. More fools they.
Today we suffer severely, IMO, from a serious lack of civilizational self-confidence. The pre-Mutiny Brits suffered from whatever its opposite would be called. They drastically under-estimated their potential opponents and paid the price for doing so.
There is very little evidence that the Mutiny was pre-planned, as can be easily seen by the various regiments that killed their officers and then stood around wondering what to do next. Then somebody has the bright idea of going to Delhi and asking the Emperor.
Hardly an example of careful forethought.
Exactly -- that act shows how the Mutiny was utterly without any lack of planning or indeed much of a goal.
The Moghal Emperor had been a figure-head for 150 years, ever since Aurangzeb's death.
First he was controlled by the Marathas and then by the British.
Even in the Indian Mutiny he was retained as a figurehead with no power.
The Indian Mutiny was not a war of independence for "India" -- the very concept of "India" was still vague to everyone. The various petty rulers like the Rani of Jhansi, just wanted their own kingdoms back.
"India" was not even a sense like "Germania" or even "Europe" to most people. There was a sense of Bharat, but the Moslem attacks since the 10th century had torn that
For which, as stated, you have still provided no proof.
Fair enough. You are correct in that there is a difference between what one deduces, what one knows and what one can prove. Ask OJ Simpson!
I can, and do, make the case that some active militant combatants are in fact aware of the uprising and seek to emulate it in today's world.
I further make the case that in today's world, with it's universal dependency on astonishingly few critical infrastructure choke points and its heavy dependence on foreign workers from muslim is ripe for a planed coordinated attack.
If you don't look at this through a civilian mindset and instead look at it with a military eye the view abruptly changes.
Any determined foe would study previous examples, note that I'm talking about the ummah's equivalent of active duty military, cadre and command structure, not every muslim 'on the arab street' they, like our military and war colleges see the world through a different prism. If they have done this they can't help but to have studied the unsuccessful Sepoy rebellion, the French and American revolutions, any number of peasant uprisings, and the successful attacks on Huế, and how the American Indians lost and the Maori didn't.
Most of the people who pray at your local mosque are as blissfully ignorant of this as most people who pray at your local church or football stadium are ignorant of our military and government's true capabilities and plans.
But there are a few, 1%? 5%? 10%? 30%? pick a number. who are here with the capability the training and the desire to utterly destroy The Great Satan, and this goal is so big, so noble, so full of glory and importance, that no amount of collateral damage is too great to make them back off.
If the cost of removing The Great Satan, and clearing the way to to remove The Little Satan from earth is the a backlash where every muslim in America is murdered by their enraged neighbors, well *shrug* insha'allah, they all become martyrs and go to paradise.
What happens if all 40 of this countries oil refineries burn in a single night? What happens if the ISO operators respond to false readings on their instruments and burn out even 1/10 of the generators and transformers in our electrical infrastructure? The SCADA controllers on our systems aren't any more immune to a Stuxnet type attack than were the controllers on Iran's centrifuges, far less so, in fact. Suppose the California Aqueduct, the Colorado River Aqueduct, the Delaware Aqueduct and the Catskill Aqueduct were all breached in a single night. Lets see. I'm up to hmmm... Teams of 3-5 at each refinery (200), a group of maybe a dozen or two programers familiar with SCADA and the ISO control system (24), 4 sapper teams of say 10 (40), and the support group about 3x the front line call it 1000 jihadists.
It took 20 jihadists to down both of the twin towers and damage the Pentagon on one sunny day, and that was an unsuccessful attack. They missed the Capitol, and there were a number of reports of swarthy men simply walking away from their grounded airplanes and fading into the woodwork.
That was an unsuccessful attack, from it we got the TSA, Homeland Security, snap city-wide martial law declarations to catch a single terrorist, and PRISM.
What would a successful attack do?
BTW, we have about 3 million muslims here now, and the obama administration is preferentially importing them as fast as they can. (The latest batch is Syrian "refugees".) 1% of that is 30,000. Compare that to my back of the envelope guess of 1000 needed to soft kill NYC and LA.
After reading Chronos' thoughtful replies, perhaps we are not so far apart as I originally thought.
Just watch how befuddled our liberals are when they jack up taxes and the big tax payers move themselves and their businesses to another state.
What do they do to salvage the situation? Well, duh! Tax revenues are down! They raise the taxes higher to compensate!
Or, every time we pass more gun control regulations, the murder rate goes up, we need to pass more gun control legislation to lower it!
Or, we required more fuel efficient cars, and "our" gas tax revenue dropped, let's add a special tax for electric vehicles! It's to fight green house gasses, doncha know? (California gasoline taxes went up 3-1/2¢ yesterday, to THE highest in the nation, because gas consumption and the resulting taxes, went down)
I agree that a lot of Muslims would like to do this.
I disagree strongly about how likely it is to actually happen. Muslims in general are not a well-organized people. Their culture makes it more difficult for them to self-organize above the family/clan/tribe level.
Such a scenario would require tremendous organization, and of course suffers from the obvious problem than three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead. This scenario would require some hundreds or thousands of men to keep a secret, with the very good chance that some percentage of them are undercovers for FBI or (more likely) NYPD.
I think we’re talking about the difference between desires/intentions of an enemy, and his capabilities. I don’t think this scenario is a whole lot more likely than an ICBM attack on DC fro Iran, not because they don’t want to do it, but because they aren’t capable.
You may note the considerable lack of spectacular attacks, especially in USA, since 9/11. And it’s not because they don’t want to attack.
I've read a LOT about the Mutiny, and I don't recall a single instance of this happening. Though there were numerous instances of servants being killed trying to defend British children.
cooks poisoned the food
Ditto.
shop owners murdered the British ladies as they came into the shop
This happened, but not as part of some pre-arranged and timed plot. The rioting broke out and some merchants jumped on the bandwagon. Most of the killing, however, was done by the sepoys themselves and by local criminal gangs. Especially of the women, who the sepoys often refused to kill.
I don't disagree that the Mutiny was a terrible thing. I just see no evidence whatsoever that Muslims look back on it with pride, or that the Mutiny itself was a preplotted universal uprising by Muslims (or by the Indian people in general).
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