Pain Lingers as Death Row Inmate Lives On

Los Angeles Daily News ^ | 2/10/2011 | Dennis McCarthy, Columnist

[ReverendJames]

Thanks. I’ve plowed through the pro/con of NDE’s and the jury’s still out I guess. Since nobody’s really come back there’s no saying.

[Abin Sur]

Like so many other occult-ish things, people simply want to believe. That being the case, no amount of findings that amount to "inconclusive" will persuade them to be skeptical, let alone findings which actually contradict their beliefs.

I freely admit that my bias is against the existence of anything remotely supernatural, but I think it's a well-justified bias. While I have no way of knowing that such things don't exist, I see no reason to believe that they do. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and it's quite lacking in this case...as it is in the case of just about everything pseudoscientific, it would seem.

I'd like to think that I have an open enough mind to be persuaded in the face of sufficient evidence; as far as I can tell that evidence doesn't exist.

[ReverendJames]

The thing is I’ve found that there’s this innate feeling (for the lack of a better word) that death is not finite. Our psyche doesn’t accept the finality of death, that there’s nothingness afterward. It’s a feeling that can’ be explained. All cultures have this ‘feeling’ of an afterlife, a continuing existence, of rewards and punishments. We have this feeling of justice. That people like Hitler, or the two mentioned here in this thread will suffer some sort of final retribution. It’s a hope.

[ReverendJames]

Change ‘feeling’ to belief.

[Abin Sur]

(corrected as per #44)

The thing is I’ve found that there’s this innate belief that death is not finite. Our psyche doesn’t accept the finality of death, that there’s nothingness afterward. It’s a feeling that can’ be explained. All cultures have this belief of an afterlife, a continuing existence, of rewards and punishments.

While I acknowledge that virtually all cultures have such beliefs, there have always been individuals (such as myself) who do not. Perhaps such beliefs are in part hard-wired into our brains, or perhaps they're simply an evolutionary advantage. It's interesting to note the the percentage of people in Europe who do not believe there is a "spirit, God, nor life force" ranges from 1% (Poland) to 33% (France). This was certainly not the case a century ago. While I don't think religion is going away for the foreseeable future, its influence does appear to be waning...at least in Western civilization.

This certainly isn't the case in the Middle East or Africa, of course.

In any case, on a personal basis I just don't "get" faith or an innate belief in the afterlife. I don't understand why anyone would believe in such things without material proof.

[cynwoody]

In the 1933 case of Giuseppe Zangara, only 33 days elapsed between trigger pull and button push.

I have the gun in my hand. I kill kings and presidents first and next all capitalists.

[Abin Sur]

In the 1933 case of Giuseppe Zangara, only 33 days elapsed between trigger pull and button push.

One of the better songs in Stephen Sondheim's musical "Assassins", "How I Saved Roosevelt", is about (and partially sung by) the character of Giuseppe Zangara.

This has been your Useless Broadway Trivia Moment for today.

[ReverendJames]

I don't understand why anyone would believe in such things without material proof.

Well that's the beauty of it. It's faith that makes us believe. If there were material proofs then would people act the way they do? If people were certain of what sort of existence they'd have after death would they act the way they do knowing that inevitably justice of some sort would take place? I think not. We have to ask ourselves why do we believe in the brotherhood of man, doing good instead of evil if there is no action after our deaths? Why bother? No matter what you do, good or evil, death just neutralizes everything. What stops us from just going nuts and doing whatever we want? Laws? Words written on pieces of paper? Have they ever stopped anyone from doing harm to others? Nope. Somehow there's this 'thing' within up that does know good from evil and I don't think it's our upbringing. We just know right from wrong. Why is that?

[MarMema]

Also the libs said that starving is very painless and euphoric.

Bravo. Best post I have read in a long time.

[Abin Sur]

Somehow there's this 'thing' within up that does know good from evil and I don't think it's our upbringing. We just know right from wrong. Why is that?

I disagree. Had you or I been born in ancient Rome ca. 100 BC, we would have merrily watched gladiatorial contests that would make us sick today. If need be, I could come up with countless other examples of malleable moral standards.

The definitions of right and wrong are not the same as they were in the past, and they will undoubtedly change in the future.

[Lazamataz]

Waterboard the bastard to death.

[ReverendJames]

You can’t tell me that all the people of Rome were innate evil doers. Or for that fact everyone that lived during that period. Times were very crude back then. Even in 1600 England. There were people who lived during those times that shunned evil and worked for good. There has to be something within us that tells us right from wrong. True, in some people they suppress it. For just as much evil you read about during those times, you will find people who did not.

[GOYAKLA]

This may be of interest: The driver of the car carrying FDR and Cermack was my next door neighbor in Miami until I left in 1958. His brother in law was Police Chief and Mayor of Miami. The sites listed have MUCH HISTORY and photos of events in that era. “Fitz”was the driver of the FDR’s car as in those days they didn’t use Secret Service as drivers, usually local cops.
The photos show “Fitz’ standing with Eleanor at a later date.
http://miamipoliceofyesterday.net/Page2.html
The story: http://books.google.com/books?id=0hCJ-Jb2yooC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=fdr,+fitzhugh+lee+policeman&source=bl&ots=Ji2CZDRJQy&sig=TpuY-b4sNq2JyN5UKZUuWdNDBS4&hl=en&ei=llNVTcGjBs_0gAe678iwDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[cynwoody]

The driver of the car carrying FDR and Cermack was my next door neighbor in Miami until I left in 1958. His brother in law was Police Chief and Mayor of Miami. The sites listed have MUCH HISTORY and photos of events in that era. “Fitz”was the driver of the FDR’s car as in those days they didn’t use Secret Service as drivers, usually local cops.

Thanks for the links.

The Miami Police Department receives the gratitude of first lady Eleanor Roosevelt (center) for protecting her husband from an assassin's bullet. Officers are (from right) Leaston G. "Red" Crews, Fitzhugh Lee, and Raymond H. Jackson.

Also worthy of note on that case: The Five Weeks of Giuseppe Zangara: The Man Who Tried to Kill FDR, by Blaise Picchi.

To give a sense for the speed of justice in Florida in the thirties, note that the 33 days included two trials — the first for assault and the second for murder after Cermak expired — and ten days on Death Row.

[Abin Sur]

You can’t tell me that all the people of Rome were innate evil doers.

I didn't say they were. Evil simply had a different definition then. Another example from that period: While there were slave revolts in ancient Rome (most notably the Spartacus' Servile War of 73-71 BC), Spartacus didn't fight to rid Rome of slavery (Stanley Kubrick aside). There's no evidence that Spartacus had any problem with the institution of slavery...he just didn't want to be a slave! If you were able to travel back in time and try to persuade Romans that they should free all their slaves, they'd think you were insane. By the standards of their time, they'd be right.

There has to be something within us that tells us right from wrong.

Why?

[ReverendJames]

Ok, how about you? What prevents you from say, stealing from a neighbor? The law or something inside you that says it’s wrong?

[Abin Sur]

Ok, how about you? What prevents you from say, stealing from a neighbor? The law or something inside you that says it’s wrong?

A combination of things.

1) Balancing the risk of being caught with all the associated negative consequences that would ensue vs. the possible gain.

2) Having been brought up by law-abiding parents, I have respect for all but the most inconsequential or absurd laws. The fact that I recognize that this is a product of my environment only somewhat lessens its impact.

3) After considerable reflection, I've chosen a philosophical worldview (Libertarian-leaning) which proscribes such behavior. I make the conscious choice not to steal.

Now let's see how all three of these play out in someone who makes the choice to steal from their neighbors.

1) They foolishly think that they can get away with theft without negative consequences. While this may be true when only done once or twice, eventually the odds catch up to them, as do the police. In other words, they're stupid.

2)I think it would be fair to say the one's environment certainly plays a role in how law-abiding people are. Someone who (for instance) grows up in a crime-infested ghetto with petty thieves for parents is far more likely to becomes such a thief themselves than someone brought up by law-abiding parents in a respectable neighborhood. In other words, the apple (usually) doesn't fall far from the tree.

3) Such people have a different worldview than mine. Choosing not to respect property rights is something that we see all too often throughout history, but it's just that...a choice.