Ed Alcock for The New York Times
Patrick Fenet, a medieval enthusiast dressed as an English longbowman,
aiming across the the field where the Battle of Agincourt took place in
northern France.
Posted on 10/25/2009 4:20:42 AM PDT by Pharmboy
MAISONCELLE, France — The heavy clay-laced mud behind the cattle pen on Antoine Renault’s farm looks as treacherous as it must have been nearly 600 years ago, when King Henry V rode from a spot near here to lead a sodden and exhausted English Army against a French force that was said to outnumber his by as much as five to one.
snip...They devastated a force of heavily armored French nobles who had gotten bogged down in the region’s sucking mud, riddled by thousands of arrows from English longbowmen and outmaneuvered by common soldiers with much lighter gear. It would become known as the Battle of Agincourt.
snip...The historians have concluded that the English could not have been outnumbered by more than about two to one. And depending on how the math is carried out, Henry may well have faced something closer to an even fight, said Anne Curry, a professor at the University of Southampton who is leading the study.
Ed Alcock for The New York Times
Patrick Fenet, a medieval enthusiast dressed as an English longbowman,
aiming across the the field where the Battle of Agincourt took place in
northern France.
When the heavily armored French men-at-arms fell wounded, many could not get up and simply drowned in the mud as other men stumbled over them. And as order on the French lines broke down completely and panic set in, the much nimbler archers ran forward, killing thousands by stabbing them in the neck, eyes, armpits and groin through gaps in the armor, or simply ganged up and bludgeoned the Frenchmen to death.
“The situation was beyond grisly; it was horrific in the extreme,” Mr. Rogers wrote in his paper.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Big Battle Revisionism ping...Hundred Years’ War ping...Agincourt ping...there...that should cover it.
The History Channel had an interesting show that used a computer program for analyzing crowd flows at stadiums and shopping centers look at this battle. They concluded that many of the French would have been killed by trampling after falling in the mud. They thought the poor visibility in the suits of armor contributed to the French problems. It was interesting to see how the topography contributed so much to the French catastrophe.
They might have to revise some of the depictions of the battle, now...Ha!
Interesting...they reference this point in the article. The French were not dressed properly for the conditions...sorta like wearing cleats on frozen turf for a football game.
Nice picture. How do the French do that? If this were an American battlefield, we’d have housing subdivisions, Walmarts, and highways littering the view.
What utter nonsense. Henry V was a byword of humility (at that stage) and refused requests to wear armour on his triumphal return to London. Instead he wore a simple white tunic to show the crowd that his victory was due to God's intervention. Professor Curry's transparent attempt to demean England's glittering military history will be acceptable to only the most ignorant of her peer group.
Devil’s Den, right?
I recognize there are two sides to the story. There are still places in Northern Virginia that are more than three miles from a mall and -- difficult as it is to imagine -- half a mile from the nearest 7-11. I've not yet seen a "Fight the Mall Shortage, Pave a Battlefield" bumper sticker, but it's probably only a matter of time.
Those rocks look like the place where Matthew Brady dragged the Union soldier’s corpse to photograph it. The first known example of press distortion of military news.
If we are mark’d to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God’s will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.
God’s peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is call’d the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam’d,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say ‘To-morrow is Saint Crispian.’
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say ‘These wounds I had on Crispian’s day.’
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he’ll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb’red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.
— Shakespeare, Henry V
Thank you...boyoboy, he could write, eh?
Rapidly urbanizing areas need to think long term in planning for transportation (another Fairfax disaster area) and open space/recreation. Communities differ in the initial assets they bring to the table, but historic sites and streams are obvious places to begin.
Chantilly was destroyed in the 1980's for nothing more than another string of cookie cutter malls like you can find along every major highway in NOVA. A shame. It could have been a major, permanent asset to the region. Now it's just part of the congestion belt.
Couldn’t get there with the links. Too bad.
Still seems to be working...in order to get the complete article, I believe you need to register there. Sorry.
French crossbowmen were “completely outclassed” by the English archers, who could send deadly volleys farther and more frequently
The crossbow had a significantly greater range. While the longbow's potential rate of fire provided a vast advantage, the difference was the archer. Without the strength and skill of years of experience, the longbow would have provided little advantage. It was the warriors, not the weapon.
Knute Rockne and Vince Lombardi combined got nothin’ on that pregame speech.
An Urban Legend perhaps, but I understand that the Brit's two-finger "up yours" gesture arose from the fact that the Frecnch cut those two fingers off of any longbowman they captured so he was henceforth useless. The "up yours" defiance indicated they could still use the longbow.
There are plenty of opportunities in Fairfax. If I could, I'd start with a gun line in the parking lot at Fair Oaks Mall pointing west toward Chantilly.
thanks, bfl
” Our king went forth to Normandie
With grace and might of chivalry
There God for him wrought marvelously
Wherefore England may call and cry: Deo gratias:
Deo gratias Anglia redde pro victoria!
He set a siege, the truth to say
To Harfleur town with royal array;
That town he won, and made a fray
That France shall rue til Doom(e)sday. Deo gratias....
Then went our king with all his host
Through France, for all the Frenchmen’s boast;
He spared no dread of least nor most
Til he came to Agincourt coast. Deo gratias....
Then, forsooth, that knight comely,
In Agincourt field he fought manly;
Through grace of God most mighty
He had both field and victory. Deo gratias....
There duke and earl, lord and baron
Were taken and slain, and that well soon,
And some were led into London
With joy and mirth and great renown: Deo gratias....
May gracious God He keep our king,
His people that are well willing
And give him grace without ending
Then we may call and safely sing: Deo gratias....
The guy who got replaced was a grizzled veteran, but he wasn't a tip top nobleman, and did not have the social rank to command the huge number of high nobility in the French Army. The original battle plan was that the French bowmen, crossbowmen, and skirmishers, would attack first. They would soften the English up some, and give Henry a Hobson's choice. He could either absorb the fire of the French bows and crossbows, without replying, or he could have his longbowmen expend their very limited number of arrows on the French auxiliaries, leaving their longbows useless when the main French force attacked.
Fortunately for Henry, and the rest of the English, the new French commander simply assumed victory was his, and laid his plans not with a view to winning the battle, but to making sure Henry, and the high nobles immediately around his banner, were killed of captured by French nobles, not commoners. In the ensuing battle, the French formations, trying to win honor, not victory, merged into a single jam-packed mass of humanity, slogging through the mud straight at Henry's banner.
Cutting off fingers isn’t a legend, I don’t know about the two finger salute
Gettysburg, and the other places you mention, are living, breathing communities of Americans. To expect them to maintain their surroundings as a perpetual museum is unrealistic.
Even the place you admire in France isn’t really kept...it’s a working farm, not an archaeological preserve.
Yes, I like preserving old things and places. However, I respect the rights of the people who actually live there and own it. I really appreciate the Codori family of Gettysburg for keeping that old barn with the cannonball hole in it...but I have no room to squawk if they decide to fix it or raze it.
Bests to you and yours.
Highly unlikely. The battle was devastating to French morale, which it wouldn't have been had they lost a roughly equal conflict. It also made an enormous stir throughout Europe, which again an equal conflict would not have.
It is also relevant that the English were exhausted from long marching trying to evade the French, suffering severely from dysyntery and significantly malnourished.
If the English hadn't tried to stick with their archers and dismounted men at arms approach to battle after effective artillery made it obsolete, they could have kicked ass for at least another century.
Centuries Later, Henry V’s Greatest Victory Is Besieged by Academia
Ny Times | 10/24/2009 | James Glanz
Posted on 10/24/2009 10:38:13 AM PDT by Saije
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2370050/posts
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Bump for after dinner...
bttt
Field artillery didn’t come in until the 30 years war. What made the kinds of longbows needed to shoot through French armor obsolete was the little ice age and the collapse of the food system needed to get people big enough to pull them.
The final English defeat in the Hundred Years War was at the Battle of Castillon in 1453. They were defeated by French artillery. Admittedly, this was in an entrenched camp they attempted to storm, but the technology was the difference.
The basic English tactic throughout the war was to take up a defensible position and then slaughter the French, who were generally stupid enough to march right onto the killing field.
Had the French, for example, surrounded the English at Agincourt, which they could easily have done, and waited for hunger and thirst to do their work, the battle, to the extent it could be called one, would have been a French victory. 24 or 48 hours would have done the trick. Of course, doing so was not possible for the French, as it required a firm command and did not fit into their cultural meme of the glorious charge.
The Little Ice Age and any effects on the strength of the populace didn’t really kick in until the mid-1500s. The longbow was used extensively in the English civil Wars of the Roses, at least their early stages, and was largely responsible for the truly astonishing death rates in some of the battles.
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