Posted on 09/16/2009 8:55:30 AM PDT by taxcontrol
I'm looking at my electrical bill and was wondering if it might be worthwhile for me to investigate either solar or natural gas co-generation systems to reduce the monthly bill. Are there any freepers who have walked this path and can give advice?
I live in Colorado where NG is locally produced and relatively cheap and I get 6 hrs of sunlight per day on average.
Solar water heater will pay for itself in ~5 years. Solar pv panels will never recoup costs.
No solar panels or co-gen facilities but I DO own about 30 operable internal combustion engines.
Does that help?
I use solar panels at my mountain cabin in central Utah. They power 12v lights and an inverter. Golf cart batteries store the energy. Works great! You can build a system at any level you like to augment or totally replace the power company. There are a number of companies you can find. Google is your friend.
Ain’t worth your time. You will still need to have the natural gas and perhaps even a generator ( if you don’t want electricity off the grid).
Look if solar or co generation were actually viable it wouldn’t need tax incentives and massive upfront investment to use. Trust me in California where they have been pushing solar for years it is good for the following -— heating water. That’s it/ It will save on your hot water costs. FIgure 15-20k for initial investment and installation. Up keep and replacement depends so much on local weather conditions ( and a hard freeze can ruin some nice solar panels easy). You have to figure in the cost of storage and replacement of source when your batteries are dead and the sun sin’t providing what you want ( cloudy days night hours etc). Use wood to heat your home, wear layers of clothing, be sure insulation is good. That will be less expensive and prove more effective
You'd probably be better off taking the $$$ and putting it in a 7% yield bond fund.
The only way PV makes sense is if you just don’t have access to the grid or you get a big wonkin’ incentive from the state or your utility.
There you go just another grand city in the making. 12 v batteries -—— hahahhahahahhaha
http://www.enphaseenergy.com/downloads/8261_Datasheet_24_32.pdf
These look to be technologically interesting, but I have no direct experience.
In general, going photovoltaic is for other purposes than economy. I't be cheaper to build a bunch of LED light fixtures, get energy efficient appliances and don't use them too much.
Cost is easy. First, figure out the total cost of installing the systems. Second, add the cost of NG per month. Third, figure out how much energy costs you will save and be very conservative here. Overestimate and it will cost you dearly. Fourth, figure out how many years it will take to pay for itself. Fifth, how long will the equipment last? Will you have to replace the panels after 8-10 years? What about maintenance costs?
Once you figure all this up, you will most likely find that the ROI (return on investment) is negative. Like others said, get windows with better insulation and make sure your doors are sealed well.
A gas generator (note to post number 5, Wayne, you're only a couple of engines ahead of me) makes noise and eventually runs out of gas...not real good in an urban setting and at least irritating in a more rural one.
A solar/battery or other system would be of value outside of simple dollars and cents.
Please keep up this discussion because it's got broader value.
PS: considering the investment - would not that money be considered an improvement and have an impact on taxes when the house is sold?
the panels were expensive
they malfunctioned regularly requiring expensive maintenance calls (by companies constantly changing names, equipment producers, technicians, and going out of business)
luckily we didn't ’ have to replace the roof during our time-
unlucky buyer after us had to deal with that expense which would require removing and reinstalling the solar panels
frisky teenage yoots throwing stones broke our solar panels. twice. insurance claims with $500 deductibles both times
the industry is growing so fast (thanks to goobmint grants) our equipment became “obsolescent” and almost impossible to repair within 5 years- forget about recouping your cost
my suggestion fuggedabout it unless you want to feel righteous about being “green”
We lived next door to a family that installed solar panels on their roof (two-story house). We waited for it to come tumbling down into our pool with a major windstorm, but we were wrong - it came down into their own front yard.
Next thing to do is get an accurate assessment of what you actually use, and when you use it. That is more difficult than you might expect.
/johnny
My son is in the power genration business. His company continually looks at so-called “alternative power sources” (solar, wind, tide etc.) in terms of whether they make economic sense.
Basically, here’s what he says:
1. Alternative power sources cost many times more than fossil fuel power.
2. For alternative power sources to even step onto the power generation playing field they must be subsidized by the taxpayer.
3. In most cases people who purchase an alternative power source will never get their money back. There is a way to feed your excess power back into the “grid” and be paid for it. Jury is out as to its cost effectiveness in the long run.
4. Alternative power will only account for 2-5% of the average home’s electrical needs. And it is another system that must be maintained.
5. Alternative power relies on unpredictable forces to generate power. Solar requires mostly cloudless sky. Wind requires wind. Tides vary with time of year and day to day ocean conditions. Ergo, alternative power requires batteries to store energy for the proverbial rainy day. Batteries cost money, they are environmentally unfriendly, they wear out and they must be replaced.
As my son says, if it makes you FEEL good to go green, and your willing to pay for it, go for it.
/johnny
Something that might be worth considering is an ammonia absorption refrigerator.
Fridge compressors draw quite a bit of power. AA fridges would run on natural gas and/or propane.
How many panel manufacturers have been in business for 25 years?
I am beginning to think that much of my electric bill is going for cooling not heating. I suspect that I need to have my system inspected at a minimum. Do you know of a good NG powered central air product that you would recommend? If solar / cogen is not really cost efficient, then perhaps I can replace my central AC and cut back on the bill some.
On the first hand there is no electricity so I have little choice.
On the other hand there are no long marches there either which is a special double bonus.
My solar water heater and PV panels are very sturdy. The solar pool heater was not. Two other neighbors with solar pool heaters also suffered the same fate.
My electricity rate is 10.5 cents per kilowatt hour. Large solar projects are currently at 25 cents per kilowatt hour when the hardware cost is amortized over 20 years. Costs are coming down, but still far from ever recovering costs.
Here is a good article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics
I’m not aware of any NG powered central air systems.
I don’t know exactly why that is. Perhaps ammonia absorption doesn’t scale up well, or there isn’t the demand.
You are right, though, that cooling would be a big electrical draw. Heating is comparatively easy to obtain from multiple sources.
According to Joe Soucheray, Mayor of Garage Logic, Minnesota (www.am1500.com)...
C.I. (Cylinder Index) The total number of internal combustion cylinders in your possession. (vehicles, gas powered equipment, marine and aviation all qualify). If it is less than your age, move on to Euphoria.
Congratulations on your score!
/johnny
The same could be said for oil, electric, coal, nuclear, etc
My solar hot water system installed in 1984 was beyond repair by 1990, and had still not recouped the installation costs. They are practical only in areas with 'soft' water.
"Solar pv panels will never recoup costs."
Depends. - In off-grid situations they re-coup in 3-4 years. We have a 1000 watt system at our ranch that has been running for ten years, and is still going strong with minimal maintenance costs. The original battery banks are still working at 100% of original capacity, requiring electrolyte replenishment twice per year.
Compared to the costs of running the generators, they save about $2000 per year. The only thing we need the generators for normally is running the wells.
Loud generators are a crime magnet. They declare to the world that you have your act together and have wealth. I live in Houston, and after Hurricane Ike the ghetto people swooped through our neighborhood and infested it like bugs. I am surprised more people did not get shot.
Gas ‘friges are ok if you’re not in a hot climate. - They are absolutely limited to a 40 degree differential to the ambient temp, making them ineffective when the temp holds at 90 degrees or above. - Large ones are even less effective.
Yes, but many of them (if not most) will be in business for a decade or so and then disappear.
An absorption central cooling unit would have to be huge (400 S.F.?) and expensive.
Same here at one of my farms in Indiana. For no more than I am at the property, a single 80 watt solar panel charging a bank of 4 batteries is wholly sufficient and far cheaper than extending a utility line and paying a monthly fee.
My hot water tank is a heat exchanger type. The solar panels are a closed loop system with a 50/50% mix of water and glycol that should be good down to -25F outdoor temp. There is a secondary closed loop coil heated by the propane furnace (new high efficiency modulated output type rated at 95% efficiency) for backup HW heat and for primary house heat via baseboard HW radiant heat. The HW tank has a sacraficial magnesium anode to prevent corrosion to other parts of the system. I just got this system installed so I will be tracking propane usage and comparing to the old system that was leaking and falling apart. There are some off-grid systems here in the Colorado Rockies due to the cost per pole for the power companies to run power to remote, mountainous locations.
Exchangers that use a toxic medium (E Glycol) are illegal in most states.
Cylinders?
That’d be about 59+/-. That’s more than my age, though.
What does it all mean?
;^)
Can you tell me what brand you recommend? Does it produce enough for hot showers? I'm looking seriously at going in that direction.
These use food-grade propolyne glycol. I think it is used as an artificial sweetener in some food. It is suggested that it be replaced about every five years due to degradation of the anti-freeze properties. I have several years of propane receipts so I should be able to monitor gallons of use to see if there is a saving. I won’t be able to tell how much saving is from solar panels and how much is from the more efficient furnace. I need to figure out a way to estimate this.
No I am not laughing at you. For a mountain cabin with nothing else around it is a good solution. But you understand exactly what I mean. This approach works for very limited useage in very remote areas....not a solution for large consumption areas
Sorry, proper spelling is “propylene” glycol.
Why a 1979 book? That's because base engineering and physics are constant! Passive solar involves things like shading, storage and window area as some examples. The information is presented in a very useful way that a layman can understand and make use of.
One house in New Mexico that I did the engineering design on had a normal winter utility bill of a little less than $100. The house size was 3000 ft2.
Active solar was used for the hot water only and passive solar was used for normal heating. Cooling was not normally needed in the summer although the house was equipped with a swamp cooler that was used occasionally. The backup heating via propane was generally used starting on the 3rd consecutive cloudy day. Propane was also used for backup heating of the hot water. Note that passive solar techniques also focus on prevention of over heating in the summer months.
Passive solar can be expensive to retrofit to an existing structure if over specified but can have a pretty good return on investment when built into new construction as the add-on cost is very modest. Probably the most cost effective passive solar retrofit to do is not for heating but for summer cooling by maximizing shading.
The only drawback (if you want to call it that) is the "lowflow", "water saver", faucets. the unit will not run if the water flow is to low. I had to modify some of the fixtures to allow more water volume, we are on a well so water usage is not a big deal. Frankly I like the higher water volume in the shower, and all it took was a drill bit to make the "restricter plate" a bit bigger.
I have a control panel that can be programmed to various settings, temp levels, shower durations, or just wide open at 140° like mine is. I think it was about $1200 and you can install it yourself if you have basic plumbing/electrical/gas knowledge.
Thanks so much for the useful info.
If a generator was in an insulated sound-proof container, couldn't the waste heat be captured for water or home pre-heating to boost the efficiency? There are multi-fuel generators so it's possible to switch to whatever fuel is cheapest at the time. Compared to solar and wind, it eliminates the need for expensive battery storage.
Battery storage is cheap, and also the most reliable, instantly available standby source.
Properly maintained batteries can last over 15 years.
bkmk
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