Posted on 08/24/2009 10:12:12 PM PDT by nickcarraway
Expert: Tests Extra-Complicated and Could Well Prove Inconclusive; South African Champ's Backers Call Probe Racist, Sexist
South Africans planned to rally in support of track champion Caster Semenya - celebrating her win in the 800 meters at the world championship, and denouncing questions about whether she should be allowed to compete as a woman as racist and sexist.
The International Amateur Athletic Federation (IAAF) has initiated gender tests on Semenya. The tests are expected to take weeks to complete. They are extremely complex, involving a physical medical evaluation and including reports from a gynecologist, endocrinologist, psychologist, internal medicine specialist and gender expert.
And, said Sports Illustrated staff writer and track and field expert David Epstein on "The Early Show Saturday Edition," they may never even yield a definite answer about Semenya's gender.
"It's something that's gone on in track and field before, and it's difficult because, in track and field, you want to be able to categorize competitors as male or female, but biologically, it's not as black and white as you might want it to be for competition," Epstein told co-anchor Chris Wragge.
"(The IAAF) used to do this regularly," Epstein continued, "and they gave it up in 1991 because it's not very clear-cut. They will do it when, you know, some of her rivals said rude things, you know, 'Just take a look at her.' She came out of nowhere, she blew everybody away, and everybody doesn't like being blown away, so the IAAF had to respond some way, basically, so this is their response."
Epstein added, "The reason IAAF got rid of (gender testing) and the International Olympic Committee ... got rid it is because, in some ways, it's kind of impossible. Genetically, you can't even look at someone's chromosomes. There are women who have XY chromosomes, which would normally be for a male; there are testosterone levels that are all over the place. Genitalia can be ambiguous or doesn't determine sex necessarily. So, there really is no clear-cut way to tell.
"The medical community has said you can't always tell the difference between a male and a female, so I don't know how IAAF, unless they come up with an arbitrary standard, is going to tell. But we'll hear something.
"What they certainly will find out is if she's masquerading -- a man masquerading as a woman. That would be clearly cheating."
While the testing cloud hovers over Semenya, Athletics South Africa, track's national governing body, on Friday invited reporters to welcome the nation's athletes home from Tuesday's championships in Berlin.
The youth wing of the governing African National Congress said its president Julius Malema would lead a welcome rally for "South Africa's golden girl," saying Friday that Semenya "should be celebrated by all South Africans, despite attempts by the IAAF to humiliate her."
The ANC women's league said its leaders would be at airport, too, and that other members would hold protests across South Africa on Tuesday. The women's league said questions about Semenya's gender "suggest that women can only perform to a certain level and that those who exceed this level should be men."
Butana Komphela, chairman of a parliamentary sports committee, cited both sexism and racism in a statement Friday. The South African Press Association quoted him as saying Friday that his committee would soon lodge a complaint with the U.N. Commissioner of Human Rights asking for an investigation into the IAAF's "gross and severe undermining" of Semenya's rights and privacy.
"Just because she is black and she surpassed her European competitors, there is all this uproar," Khompela was quoted as saying.
Race is never far from sport in South Africa, where apartheid leaders lavished money and attention on sports embraced by the white minority such as rugby and cricket, while black players and fans languished in dilapidated stadiums. Soccer is seen as the sport of blacks, and excitement over South Africa becoming the first African nation to host a soccer World Cup have been tempered by charges from some blacks that white South Africans didn't support the bid and won't go to the games.
The head of the South African track federation, Leonard Chuene, was among those raising race in the Semenya case.
"It would not be like that if it were some young girl from Europe," Chuene told the AP by telephone. "If it was a white child, she would be sitting somewhere with a psychologist, but this is an African child."
The teenager's stunning and recent improvement in times, along with her muscular build and deep voice, sparked speculation about her gender.
Hours before she won the 800 final Wednesday, the IAAF confirmed a complex set of gender tests was under way.
The IAAF has been criticized in South Africa and elsewhere for going public, particularly given 18-year-old Semenya's youth and inexperience.
B.S.
I am sorry. If she is who she says she is. and she has a vagina. she is a she. let it be.
Just so long as it is original equipment and not aftermarket.
I agree. It doesn’t seem overly complicated to me. Maybe the experts would be satisfied if she produced her original long form birth certificate?
Caster Semenya = CASTRATED SEMENYA
Balls! Cried the Queen, if I had two I’d be King! And the King laughed, not because he had to, but that he had two!
There are indeed some poor souls out there born with indeterminate physical sexual identity. (I’m not referring to the kind of odd-ball excuse making the homosexual community does, but a real physical issue.)
Good luck straightening this out. And if this competitor indeed has a physical sexual identity issue, from birth, and now has to face this kind of publicity, I’ll say a prayer for her sanity and dignity.
Isn’t there an X and Y chromosome thingy to check? Pretty easy....
That is absolutely true. You would be able to tell just by looking.
“Isn’t there an X and Y chromosome thingy to check? Pretty easy....”
XX=female, XY=male. But she could be XXY, a female with a male Y chromosome. This would disqualify her.
Some males are XYY and they are super agrressive.
And...
"It would not be like that if it were some young girl from Europe," Chuene told the AP by telephone. "If it was a white child, she would be sitting somewhere with a psychologist, but this is an African child."
According to the ANC, if you are black, you are exempt from qualifying rules and any scrutiny whosoever. The biggest, most disgusting racists are often the ones screaming "Racist!" the loudest.
There are women who have XY chromosomes, which would normally be for a male
This is circular reasoning of sorts - they assert it's difficult to definitively determine an individual's actual gender, but then claim women can be XY, which implies that the gender can be known absolutely.
Sociologists and psychologists can play all the games they want, but I would assert that XX is female, and XY is male - if genetic expression of gender related characteristics is defective, this doesn't change the fundamental sex of the individual. In cases of XXY and XYY, the individual should be counted as male for the purposes of the competition.
yes. but they would know by now if she had a sex change. thats extreme and radical.
Even if she was born with both features in some other way. In my opinion, if she has a real vagina, shes a woman.
This would be simplified so much if she would just simply flash the crowd.
This racism cry is stupid - if “she” WERE a white European girl who looked and spoke like a man (and I have heard “her” voice), “it” would be undergoing the same scrutiny, presumably having denied real girls of a victory.
I was just watching Crocodile Dundee...he coulda sorted this out right quick, mate.
Sorry guys it is a work in progress.
LOL!
Does she have a Cowper’s gland and a Prostrate Gland?
you might do your homework before making that assertion.
Look up androgen insensitivity, and mosaicism among a host of genetic disorders.
Is anyone feeling the desire to have a committee run health care?????
How the heck do they get "racism" out of this one?
Interestingly enough, “her” name is an anagram.
Caster Semenya
” A secret man. Yes”
“Does Obama have an adams apple?”
It’s pretty hard to spot in most photos. I am not sure that it is original equipment.
A person who does not have XX chromosomes is not a woman, and should be excluded from womens competition, but may compete in mens competitions.
DNA tests take less than an hour. (I watch CSI!) ;-P
(Yes, that’s sarcasm)
Ummmm. YES. Yes you CAN. Does ‘she’ have a barr body from an extra X chromosome or not?
The chromosomal defects that would cause a ‘woman’ to fail a barr body test are XY females and XO Turner syndrome; neither of which is likely to be an olympic level athlete.
If this ‘woman’ is ambiguously sexed, she obviously has higher testosterone than a woman and should not be able to compete with women.
If this is a man, then ‘he’ should be stripped of his medals.
Or Adam’s apple?
XY females have no secondary body hair, abnormally large breasts, and are slightly mentally retarded on average.
It is obvious that this runner is NOT insensitive to testosterone, in fact if ‘she’ is indeed a ‘she’, then ‘she’ seems to have quite a lot of it.
It's obvious, SEMENYA.............Semen? Ya!
A physical exam...a DNA test...and a blood/tissue test for steroids should clear things up.And for the record,it’s not racist or sexist any more than it was for the “women” of East Germany,Bulgaria,etc during the 70s and 80s.
She improved her personal best time in the 800m by 7 seconds in just 9 months.
That just doesn’t happen. Not at this level of competition.
This looks to me like a clearcut case that she is doping BIGTIME, not so much that she’s a man. Massive testosterone injections would also explain the coarsened features, the facial hair, and the deepened voice.
Aftermarket? You can get one of them things from J.C. Whitney?
Subtle.
What makes a person "male" is not just having a Y chromosome, but having a Y chromosome that contains Sexual Region Y (SRY): apparently, the genetic information needed to make testes.
Some unfortunate individuals have a very, very rare condition where either they have XX chromosomes (apparently female), but one of the X's contains a SRY: contains, in othr words, the fragment of genetic material that makes some masculine characteristics.
Some others ar XY (apparently male) but have a Y that doesn't have SRY: doesn't have the expected male genetic information.
There are other possible genetic anomalies as well, not involving any kind of fraud or deception, but just an unusual genetic configuration.
All very rare, as I said. And I feel sorry if anything like this turns out to be applicable to this outstanding young athlete. It's the sort of thing that can cause great suffering and anguish to the person involved.
http://priory.com/med/xx.htm
Don't be such a dick (pun intended). I know what androgen insensitivity is, which is why I made the distinction "if genetic expression of gender related characteristics is defective, this doesn't change the fundamental sex of the individual."
Even if the genotype doesn't manifest itself fully in the apparent phenotype, or the genotype is co-mingled with another, it's foolish to say that someone who does not have a normal female genetic structure is female for the purposes of athletic competition. For instance, if someone is XXY, or XY with improper expression of male characteristics, they may not have all the advantages of a normal male in terms of strength, but they should not be considered female.
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