Posted on 04/07/2009 4:47:57 PM PDT by cradle of freedom
Amen, Jo. I am disheartened by the number of so-called Christians and Catholics who voted for death instead of life. What a sad commentary.
They say that because he sometimes slept with men, which was normal in those days to share a bed with a companion of the same sex if you were in war time or travelling. Nowadays they think you are gay if you do that.
Well, I feel sorry for peope who dwell in their ignorance, and clutch on to mythology like a child would, a blanky.
Other than, I only have the best wishes for all, that they may find the strengh to rise up, above superstition!
I know Peter Marshall. I met him at a church nearby and he prayed for me to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I also visited the Community of Jesus where he lived at the time. That was interesting, to say the least! It’s a good book.
I can only suggest, then, that you avoid the threads with the word RAPTURE in them. Not hard to do at all. Keep practicing til you get it right, LOL.
It’s not superstition, my FRiend. I have experienced God’s grace numerous times during my health crises. He gives me the Grace to go on, despite ill health, sorrow, various problems, etc. You have to experience HIM to know He’s REAL. Blessings, Mary
Years ago I remember hearing some powerful messages by Derrick Prince (I think I spelled his name wrong) about how England has been disciplined by God for their part in hurting Israel. I have no doubts - none. The more I study history, the more I am convinced that it is NO coincidence but a sovereign God who cares and has a purpose.
I have forgotten the story where God is willing to spare the city if there is even one righteous soul there. I know we still have some in this country - many, but we are shrinking in number. I do think there is a connection to the fact that we are not having large families and teaching all these kids to love and serve God. The projected demographics are that the Muslims will soon outnumber us by huge, huge numbers - probably as scary a thought as any nuclear fears.
He works everything to His purposes. England is fast becoming a Muslim nation. I pray God delivers her from evil.
Thank you for the ping on this... I’ve got some thoughts, and impressions, but I’m going to delay trying to express them until I’m physically feeling a bit better.
No sweat.
Take care of yourself!
Prayers N hugs.
Years ago I remember hearing some powerful messages by Derrick Prince (I think I spelled his name wrong) about how England has been disciplined by God for their part in hurting Israel. I have no doubts - none. The more I study history, the more I am convinced that it is NO coincidence but a sovereign God who cares and has a purpose.
INDEED.
BTW, I think it’s Derek Prince.
Peter Marshall??? That’s like meeting Moses or
Billy Graham. What a story to tell the Grand kids.
Sodom & Gomorah.
This position will change when you’re on your deathbed.
Immaterial, and the figurines are equally sized. If you've seen the actual thing, they are not all looking in one direction... most are looking at one another; some to the left, the others to the right. [...]
My mistake, in part- I was confusing the conversation to some degree- You are speaking of the friezes on the interior courtroom walls- and you are correct in your description. I was recalling the exterior eastern pediment, which does, btw, have Moses as the central figure, flanked by Solon and Confucius.
[...] The very fact that Muhammad is there, as a "law-giver" disproves your "Judeo-Christian-based government" mythology.
On this bit I will not waver at all.
Find for me a single historical instance where the Sharia Law, or even Muhammad generally (or any other religion for that matter), was used as a basis in court or in law. American law is replete with reference and precedence linked directly to the Holy Bible, both Old and New Testaments, and I will repeat, it is the only holy writing ever given that regard, at least historically, in these United States.
Furthermore, without much effort, I can easily find established law directly related to writings of the founders of the Protestant movement, and even Catholic and Anglican traditions, certainly in the state houses. But you will find *nothing* based on Muhammad, Buddha, or anyone else for that matter.
It is a matter of *fact* that the lion's share of our early law was based in English precedence, and upon the Holy Bible. There was no American precedence to go by, so the primary method of establishing law came from Christian ethics as argued from the Bible and Blackstone...
The pivotal codices used in the formation of our law and even our Constitution was in fact Sir William Blackstone's "Commentaries on the Laws of England":
Wikipedia.org "Commentaries on the Laws of England" : Legacy[...] Blackstone's text answered an urgent need in the developing United States. [...] The four volumes of Blackstone put the gist of that tradition in portable form. They were required reading for most lawyers in the Colonies, and for many, they were the only reading. Blackstone's Whiggish but conservative vision of English law as a force to protect people, their liberty, and their property, had a deep impact on the ideologies that were cited in support of the American Revolution, and ultimately, the United States Constitution.
[emphasis mine]
Now, while my interest is not based in law, nor my expertise, it has been my good pleasure to have read Blackstone's Commentaries, and it's foundations in Hebrew and Christian thought are absolutely undeniable.
It is within Blackstone that you will find the rights of man granted by God, sovereigns and the states limited by the natural law, that being those things which God has set forth as right and wrong. Sovereign and state are beneath the courts of God, as are their subjects. It clearly defines the duties of all men before God in law. I really do suggest you read it to broaden your view on the founding of our country.
No, without a doubt, all the documents leading to the formation of this country were indeed mindful of God, and I mean Israel's God, Jehovah particularly- And the foundations of America itself are steeped in the Spirit and founded in Christianity by Christian men.
It is the French Declaration of the Rights of Man that is the godless version you desire. It is the foundation on which socialism began it's unwholesome stain.
The prominent Founding Fathers, including George Washington, were Deists. I also recall reading the latter having rarely [attended church (as per your revision in a later post)]
Here, again, I challenge you. Name them. I will knock over your assertions one-by-one. The closest you will get is likely to be Jefferson, as he abhorred the structure of the Church, and was convinced that the New Testament had been altered to promote the Church hierarchy. But he was undoubtedly a Christian too, albeit one much different from his fellows.
As for Washington, I will deny your accusation outright. He was a vestryman (elder) in the Episcopalian Church, one of the founders of a particular Church in both money and commitment, and rode to church two hours each way while in the service of his country as the president.
There is a letter from his adopted daughter, Kelley Custis-Lewis (??), written after his death to an inquiring historian doing a biography which addresses his (and Martha's) Christian faith quite completely. There are also reams of public papers in which he professes his faith, and his private secretary speaks in a matter-of-fact way about interrupting him in devotion at his office while kneeling in prayer with his Bible opened before him.
I will happily provide you with links to this information at your request, but the hour is late, and it would take me some time, as this is not something that I have in my bookmarked electronic files, but rather in actual books, and I am transmitting this information to you from my rather fallible memory.
In closing this missive, I will encourage you to remove yourself from the current age of sophistry, and place yourself in this place a mere fifty years hence, or anytime before that time. Pick up histories, school primers, college level books, law books, even social commentary and music from those times past, and you will find without a doubt that Christianity entwines it all. Anyone can throw a quote out there, taken out of context, but a whole, well rounded, and arbitrarily selected package of media from any given time (say, written within a decade or two) will give a very clear picture of the culture of the day.
History is best viewed closer/closest to it's source- Those who come after are the revisionists always.
Lastly this quote:
"Take away the heritage of a people, and they are easily persuaded." -Karl Marx
Regards.
If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here and in New England.
-- Benjamin Franklin, An Essay on Toleration
He [the Rev Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.
-- Benjamin Franklin, from Franklin's Autobiography
I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country.
-- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789, Papers, Presidential Series, 4:274, the "Magna-Charta" here refers to the proposed United States Constitution
If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists.
-- George Washington, letter to Tench Tilghman asking him to secure a carpenter and a bricklayer for his Mount Vernon estate, March 24, 1784, in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion (1963) p. 118
"Sir, Washington was a Deist."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, rector of the church Washington had attended with his wife, to The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, upon Wilson's having inquired of Abercrombie regarding Washington's religious beliefs, quoted from John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans
"With respect to the inquiry you make, I can only state the following facts: that as pastor of the Episcopal Church, observing that, on sacramental Sundays George Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs. Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I considered it my duty, in a sermon on public worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations, who uniformly turned their backs on the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it. A few days after, in conversation, I believe, with a Senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who, in the course of conversation at the table, said that, on the previous Sunday, he had received a very just rebuke from the pulpit for always leaving the church before the administration of the sacrament; that he honored the preacher for his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant, were he to become one then, it would be imputed to an ostentatious display of religious zeal, arising altogether from his elevated station. Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacrament Sunday, though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning."
-- The Reverend Doctor James Abercrombie, in a letter to a friend in 1833, Sprague's Annals of the American Pulpit, vol. 5, p. 394, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 25-26
"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."
-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in an interview with Mr. Robert Dale Owen written on November 13, 1831, which was publlshed in New York two weeks later, quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, pp. 27
Finally:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."
-Treaty of Tripoli, 1797. Passed unanimously by Congress, and signed by John Adams.
Or not.
See my #117
In brief, I was thinking of the exterior Eastern Pediment, not the interior courtroom friezes, so I was adding confusion to the debate. I am sorry for that.
[...] Muhammed is represented as a lawyer, not as a religious leader.
I am inclined to agree, of course, and it does nothing to remove my central argument either. The 10 commandments are carved into the doors of the chamber, and Christian symbols and Biblical inscriptions abound throughout the capitol buildings, state capitols, county seats, colleges, and every vestige of the public square, despite 50 years of outright opposition to their being there.
The same cannot be said about any other religion.
Thanks for your reply.
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