ping.
Posted on 12/12/2008 1:00:13 PM PST by BGHater
Polish archaeologists believe silk-draped skeletons found in a cathedral crypt are those of three grand masters who more than 600 years ago ruled the Teutonic Knights — an order that spread religion through force.
An archaeologist in the city of Kwidzyn — the Teutonic fortress of Marienwerder in the Middle Ages — said Friday that DNA tests indicate the remains are those of Werner von Orseln, the knights' leader from 1324-1330; Ludolf Koenig, who ruled from 1342-1345; and Heinrich von Plauen, who reigned from 1410-1413.
"Taking everything into account, we see that we are dealing with Teutonic Knights grand masters," Bogumil Wisniewski, an archaeologist who spearheaded the search, told The Associated Press. "We are 95, 96 percent sure it is them."
He said the skeletons, found in wooden coffins, were draped in silks — some painted with gold — a fabric reserved only to those highest in power in the Middle Ages.
DNA tests matched their age to that of the death age of the three grand masters. They also revealed temporary malnutrition in one of the skeletons that could match the 10-year imprisonment of von Plauen.
While Wisniewski acknowledged he could only be completely certain of the identities "if I met each face-to-face and he told me his name," he said several other indicators supported the find, including wall paintings in the cathedral showing the three grand masters and historic documents saying that von Orseln and Koenig were buried there. The order ruled in the area until early 16th century.
Wojciech Weryk, coordinator for city development and promotion, said the remains will be returned to the crypt and displayed under a special glass shield, so visitors can see them.
"This is such a valuable historic finding that we should show it," Weryk said.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
ping.
duh..ping.
Anyone know of any other instances of Christianity being forced on anyone?
Iberia, for example.
Charlemagne and the Saxons?
Various Scandanavian and Anglo-Saxon kings?
Vladimir the Great of Russia?
The Spanish and Portugese in Latin America?
Spanish and Portugese persecution of Jews and Muslims?
Those are off the top of my head.
Did you hear about the Teutonic knights who thought they were iron men because had rust in their armor ?
I’ve read that the Teutonic Knights were yet another group of mass murdering Germans not people that spread their religion by whatever means. The article said that they engaged in ethnic cleansing in Poland and settled the land with Germans.
IMO forceful conversion would be a step up from that.
I have heard of my grandma wearing out your behind with a corn stalk if you sneak out of church .
“The Teutonic Knights were one some of the most despicable people to ever walk the face of the earth. “
Why?
Unless that cornstalk still has the ears on it that threat doesn’t sound like much of a deterrent.
Thanks for the info
Before or after the Muslim invasion?
Ferdinand and Isabella’s Inquisition?
Pre ‘92 and after.
One of the popular traditions of the Teutonic Knights was known as a Reis. A wealthy noble or knight from elsewhere in Christian Europe searching for adventure would travel to the Baltic coast to arrange one in exchange for funding the Order. This was a way for the Teutonic Knights to both raise money, influence, and manpower from those who chose to participate. What the Reis entailed can best be described as a human safari wherein knights would hunt Prussian, Lithuanian, or virtually any peasant in the area for sport. Think of the scene in planet of the apes where the apes on horseback are riding down the fleeing humans in the fields. Like that, except bloodier.
They attacked Christian dukedoms and principalities in the name of evangelization, falsely accusing them of being pagan when they in fact were not. Those they defeated, they also enslaved, even though they were Christian.
When recruiting troops in the West for their war against Poland in the 15th century, they would falsely tell recruits that it was for a crusade against a pagan kingdom, even though the Polish kingdom had been Christian since the 10th century.
All in all, they were a horrible, evil group of people who committed unspeakable atrocities in the name of Christ.
It is a pity King Jagelo of Poland did not completely wipe them out after winning his war against them. Instead, he signed a treaty with them and let them become vassals of the Polish crown. That was a big mistake.
You might find this article interesting.
> It is a pity...
Please emotionalize somewhere else. This happened 600 years ago.
Good point.
Nevertheless, there is a great deal of emotional content to this within Polish culture. I'm not even Polish-born, (I consider myself to be an unhyphenated American), but a hatred of the Teutonic Knights is so strong in Polish culture that it passed on to me too.
Maybe the fact that I read Sienkiewicz's Teutonic Knights as a teenager has something to do with it...
Just read Amazons summary of that book. Seems to be written from a very polish perspective. The knights built some quite impressive buildings over the clay huts they found there - hope that’s mentioned in the book.
True. It's fiction, not history.
I realize that my upbringing makes me biased against them. Poles have romanticized their victory over the knights in 1410. In addition, the knights' evil has also been exaggerated in the Polish mind, though I don't think there is any denying that they were evil.
Instances of conversion by the sword are a major blot on Christendom, and there were few religious orders that were more notorious in this regard than the knights. Some of the Polish dukes in the North were complicit in it, too, I realize, but the knights were the main culprits in the extermination of the Old Prussians.
I am actually surprised to see someone defending the knights. Are they romanticized in German culture?
I’m not defending them. I’m absolutely indifferent about the knights. I’d probably find it interesting to read a history book on this episode, but that’s about it. I guess everybody here in Germany is on a similiar wavelength. Never heard anybody romanticizing about them.
If Poles are romanticizing this old victory that’Äs imo pretty poor.
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I have seen and toured the castle in Poland, and driven past the Battle of Grunwald site. This is also some of the same area where Hitler had his Wolf's Lair (further north), which had been pretty run-down. At least it was run down when we beat the Soviets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MamuJHShRls
And, attempting to forcibly convert Holy Mother Russia to papism.
That didn’t come off very well thanks to St. Aleksandr Nevsky whose victory in the Battle on the Ice was to grand tactical scale combat what David’s victory over Goliath was to single combat—a very neat victory that could be seen as a sign of divine intervention (though in each case, if there was divine intervention, it was through the inspiration of superior tactical intuition rather than a miracle).
I think the answer to your question largely rests on whether the suppression of paganism by a Christianized royalty or nobility counts. If so, there are lots of examples, though I think the Teutonic Knights stand alone as an example of Christianization through invasion. (I don’t think Latin America counts: the invasion there was for plunder, pure and simple. The Latin missionaries followed in the wake of the plunderers, of if they came along as chaplains, just sensibly tried to redeem the bloody mess by taking the opportunity to spead the Gospel.)
reading summaries will get you far...
duh!
Building stone mansions over clay huts is fine unless you don’t kill villagers first. (!!!) At the beginning Teutonic Knights seemed like a fine priory of God, I agree, But when Lithuania got baptised, TK. influence over that part of Europe decreased. (They have been raiding Lithuania, as it wasa pagan land.) They couldn’t bear it... And they have started a war against Polish (yes, capital here) and Lithuanian forces... Now tell me, If they were really Christians, why would they start a war with other Christian country? What was a case here? Religion? Faith? Believes?... Not really. Justmoney... Finally they got their asses whooped on 15.VII.1410 and never regained strenght... Thank You God!
Without romanticizing and glorifying Grunwald and the golden age of the Jagelonian dynasty, I don't think Poles would have maintained their national identity through the centuries when their country ceased to exist as an independent polity.
Part of the reason Sienkiewicz wrote his novel on the TK was to inspire Poles to hope for a day when they would get their country back.
Conquered and subjugated peoples need a glorified, romanticized history in order to survive as a people. That romanticized (and distorted) vision history typically remains with them even after they regain freedom. That is why the struggle with the Teutonic Knights remains so prominent in the Polish psyche today, and I don't see anything wrong with it.
If that romanticized history inspired hatred of some present-day ethinic or religious group, then there would be some reason to worry about it. In this case, however, the only hatred is of a defunct religious order. I don't see the harm in hating people who have been dead for hundreds of years.
Germany never went through a centries-long dismemberment by foreign powers like the Poland went through, so I can understand why the phenomenon is not present in your country.
But still poor, isn’t it? :)
Poles and their self pity...
bump
You can’t possibly know about their motivations, the character of the pagans or how the knights were viewed by the public in the conquered territories. Maybe they were viewed as quite OK compared to the people who reigned over this region before they came.
I doubt the people back than had the Polish national conscience the author of this book (and I suspect there are many others using this old happenings for their modern day aims) attributes to them.
Now where is that self-pitying? The difference between our nations is that we remember our history, although it has it’s bright and dark sides. You however tend to forget about yours (can’t blame you actually). What we consider remembering about past,you tend to call “self-pitying”.
Actually, it’s easy. TK were there to force pagans to get baptised. After last pagan country got baptised, their job was done in that part of the world, however they stayed there and acted more as an imperial state rather then humble servants of God.
Have you read Sienkiewicz's other books "With Fire and Sword", "Fire in the Stoeppe" and "The Deluge"?
Unfortunately, it started long before F and I, and lasted long after they were gone.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Marranos.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morisco
Dhimmis in Muslims lands were not exactly safe and protected, but they were first-class citizens by comparison to Jew, Muslims, converts from these religions to Catholicism, or their descendants in Iberia.
You tell him!
I recently discovered a song that uses my last name in the title. It was sung by the Poles during the occupation by Germany during WWII.
Here is a link to a Youtube recording of the song. I wish I could read Polish. The song title is "Szumi Dokola Las".
> ...stayed there and acted more as an imperial state rather then humble servants of God.
The managed to stay there some centuries. This would not have been possible were the inhabitants subdued. I guess the people back then didn’t care a lot to whom they paid their tenth as life must have been hard already.
BTW, I have nothing against remembering the past, the fallen and all that but this pathos over some battle 600 years ago is ridiculous.
To you it may sem ridiculous, your country (Germany as it is) is around 300 years old.. you’ll never understand us :)
The inhabitants you mention were slaves, peasants we call them today. TK’s brutality in forcing their law is world reknown, peasants under their rule prefered to obey Polish King who at least ordered them to pay smaller taxes.
If you reallly want to know the meaning of the song just freepmail me. I’ll be more than happy to translate it for you.
My grandpa taught me this song when I was 4 years old :)
It’s not even that old. There was a “revolution” in 1848 without that much of an effect. The real birth of the German nation happened after the quick and superglorious (and justified - payback for Napoleon) concerted blitzlike preemtive attack of the German States against the French in 1870/71. Of course a loose “we are family” feeling existed for centuries before that.
We aren’t celebrating this today. Actually it would be worth to celebrate but then the French would feel offended.
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