Will Satellite's 1080p HD Really Be 1080p? (DirecTV and DISH-movies will rival Bluray's res.)

http://www.tvpredictions.com/1080p080108.htm ^ | 31Aug08 | Phillip Swann

[Las Vegas Dave]

Will DIRECTV and Dish Network offer real 1080p high-def video, as the satcasters have claimed in recent days?

That's the question being asked by high-def enthusiasts and a host of technological experts, according to The New York Times.

Both Dish Network and DIRECTV this week announced that they will soon begin displaying movies in 1080p high-def video -- the same resolution now found on the Blu-ray high-def disc. Dish, in fact, will premiere its 1080p lineup today with the showing of I Am Legend on HD PPV.

But The Times reports that 1080p programming could not be transmitted over the air until now because the signal contains too much information, leaving the question whether the resolution will truly be 1080p

"But are they Blu-ray quality?," the Times asks of the Dish and DIRECTV movies. "Resolution is not the only factor that determines picture quality. Another is bit rate, the number of bits per second that are being transmitted down the pipe to consumers...Bit rate is a subject that the cable and satellite providers never discuss, but anyone who watches the various services can see that some channels are considerably softer looking than others."

The Times quotes well-known TV engineer Pete Putman as saying that CBS now offers the high bit rate over the air with 17 megabits per second for its high-def programs; and that's for 1080i, not 1080p. But Putman says he believes both Dish and DIRECTV are transmitting high-def programming at around 6-8 megabits per seconds.

Consequently, Putnam is dubious that the satcasters have the bandwidth to increase their bit rate to offer true 1080p video.

Andy Parsons, chief of the Blu-ray Disc Association, says he'll be watching closely to see what comparisons are made.

[Las Vegas Dave]

Interested in HDTV?
Please Freepmail me (freepmail works best) if you would like your name added to the HDTV ping list, (over 300 freepers are HDTV ping list members).

The pinged subjects will be those of HDTV technology, satellite/cable HD, OTA (over the air with various roof top and indoor antennas) HD reception. Broadcast specials, Blu-ray/HD-DVD, and any and all subjects relating to HDTV.

Las Vegas Dave

[Las Vegas Dave]

Pinging the HDTV list..

HDTV 1080p pings!

[Always Right]

I think it would be better to have less compression at 1080i than higher compression at 1080p. Sounds like it is more of a gimmick to claim 1080p than a real improvement in quality.

[RayChuang88]

Can it be done? Now that both DirecTV and Dish Network use MPEG-4 compression of video signals (the same compression used by Blu-ray discs), you can broadcast 1080p 24 frames per second video over satellite to any ATSC-compatible HDTV set.

If I remember correctly, due to limitations with HDMI cabling HDTV in the USA uses only these three standards:

720p 30 frames per second
1080i 30 frames per second
1080p 24 frames per second

[Las Vegas Dave]

How DISH’s “turbo-charged” will work..

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/143908-how-dishs-1080p-going-work.html

[Las Vegas Dave]

BTW for those wondering Dish Networks 1080p will be 1080p 24fps.

[RayChuang88]

Actually, because 1080p uses 24 frames per second (the same as a standard motion picture film camera) and the fact 1080p 24 fps has the same bandwidth requirements as 1080i 30 fps video, you can broadcast a film movie at 1080p 24 fps with the same channel allocation used on 720p and 1080i 30 fps video HDTV broadcasts.

[Las Vegas Dave]

And some NEWS from DirecTV.... DIRECTV Remains Clear HD Leader With 130 HD channels on Tap For Mid-August.

DIRECTV Adding More Than 30 New HD Channels and is First To Offer All HD Programming in MPEG-4 AVC and Dolby Digital; Will offer HD Movies in 1080p Later This Year

EL SEGUNDO, Calif., July 28, 2007 - DIRECTV, the nation's leading satellite television service provider, continues to dominate the HD landscape by delivering significantly more quality national HD channels than any other television provider in the nation via the most advanced technology. Beginning August 14, DIRECTV will launch more than 30 additional HD channels, bringing the total HD channel lineup to 130.

DIRECTV will also transmit all of its HD programming in the MPEG-4 Advanced Video Coding standard, by the end of this month - the first to do so in the industry. All HD programming will also be available in the Dolby Digital audio format, and later this year, DIRECTV will begin offering movies in 1080p, the highest resolution format available for HD video enthusiasts and the same format used by Blu-Ray HD DVDs.

Among the new HD channels that DIRECTV will launch next month are Showtime Extreme HD, Showtime Showcase HD, Planet Green HD, ABC Family HD, additional DIRECTV HD pay per view channels and an additional 23 Regional Sports Networks (RSNs) in HD 24 hours a day.

"Despite all the sound and fury of confusing HD claims from our competitors, our customers understand that DIRECTV is the destination for the most compelling and complete lineup of HD content," said Derek Chang, executive vice president, Content Strategy and Development, DIRECTV, Inc. "Our message is clear - DIRECTV is the content leader, and our delivery of the best quality HD via the most advanced technology is one way we continue to dominate this category and offer our more than 17 million customers nationwide an unparalleled entertainment experience."

In addition to its full lineup of linear HD channels, DIRECTV continues to lead the industry with the most sports HD programming available, by broadcasting exclusive, interactive sports packages like NFL SUNDAY TICKET™, NCAA® MEGA MARCH MADNESS™ and NASCAR HOTPASS™ all in crystal-clear HD. DIRECTV will also continue to add HD content to its newly launched DIRECTV on Demand platform.

The full DIRECTV HD programming lineup, including the new channels, and details on receiving equipment needed for the new DIRECTV HD services, are available by calling 1-800-DIRECTV or visiting directv.com/hd.

With the DIRECTV 11 satellite now part of the fleet and the launch of the DIRECTV 12 satellite next year, DIRECTV will have the capacity to deliver 200 national HD channels and 1,500 local HD and digital channels in addition to new advanced programming services for customers nationwide.

[LibLieSlayer]

Blu Ray uses several codecs... and one MPEG 4 variant is just one of them. dtv nor any other commercially profitable supplier will ever be able to match the 50 megabit peak data rate that Blu Ray is capable of. Ask them if they will deliver Dolby Tru HD audio or DTS Master audio!!! No way ever will that happen! dtv and dish are a joke when it comes to quality... their MPEG4 stuff looks better than their old HD-lite MPEG2 but it is still trash in my world.

LLS

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

How much better is 1080p than 720p ?

[Always Right]

But are they Blu-ray quality? Resolution is not the only factor that determines picture quality. Another is bit rate, the number of bits per second that are being transmitted down the pipe to consumers.

All digital television is compressed, reducing the amount of space the signal needs, while attempting not to cut picture quality. But when a transmission gets too compressed–if a program provider needs extra space for more channels, for instance–the result can be a picture that breaks up into little squares or gets the “mosquito effect,” a sense that a swarm of bugs is circling around an object in motion.

Bit rate is a subject that the cable and satellite providers never discuss, but anyone who watches the various services can see that some channels are considerably softer looking than others. Fast-moving action, as found in sports programming, requires more bits (less compression). Program providers may “borrow” bits from one channel and give them to another.

Pete Putman, a well-known television engineer and owner of ROAM Consulting, and his colleagues often check bit rates, and he’s found that CBS, when viewed over the air, generally offers the highest, around 17 megabits per second for their high definition programming. The new digital converter boxes now being used by Dish and DirecTV use a more advanced compression scheme, and Putman believes that they are sending out high-definition programming at around 6 to 8 megabits per second.

Requirements may eventually change. As Consumer Electronics Daily, a trade paper, reported today, Fujitsu claims that it has found a way to reduce the bit rate for the compression schemes now used by DirecTV and Dish. The company reportedly has filed more than a dozen patents on picture coding that one day may bring the high-definition compression rate down to 4 megabits per second.

But for now, Putman believes that for a 1080p picture to look like Blu-ray, program providers will have to increase their bit rate to 16 or 18 megabits per second. Do they have the capacity to do that? And if not, will the Blu-ray camp call foul?

“We’ll have to see what comparisons are made and what comes out of it,” said Andy Parsons, head of the Blu-ray Disc Association.

[Always Right]

How much better is 1080p than 720p ?

360p better. A smartass answer, but basically true. The 360 extra lines means there is 50% more information available.

[LibLieSlayer]

Blu Ray, using more efficient codecs than the MPEG4 dtv uses, stream at bitrates up to 50 megabits per second. 25 to 48 mbits per second are what I see on most BR movies. You cannot force 5 gallons into a 1 gallon bucket and keep the same volume. This is more marketing lies from the master liars at dtv and ergen’s dish. Crap sellers at best!

LLS

[RayChuang88]

I think 16-18 mbps data rate for HDTV over satellite could be possible in a few years, especially given both DirecTV and Dish Network are launching several more satellites to increase channel capacity. That could make it possible to have 18 mbps data rate per HDTV channel over satellite.

[jimtorr]

The 360 extra lines means there is 50% more information available.

How does that translate to the video screen, though?

Maybe I'm getting old, or need new glasses, but so far the only benefit I've seen to using 1080 over 480, even, is the wider picture.

This complaint applies to HD cable television(Comcast), of course, not to DVD video.

[savedbygrace]

DIRECTV Remains Clear HD Leader With 130 HD channels on Tap For Mid-August.

And at any given moment, Law & Order will be showing on at least 43 of those.

[eleni121]

So the 1080 TV will be able to show blu ray quality pictures through satellite service...correct?

Is that also true for cable subscribers?

[Paladin2]

"How does that translate to the video screen, though?"

It's easier to read the contents of signs and see skin blemishes in closeups.

Screen captures have better resolution when using my 720p video cam than when using a 480 video cam (both solid state - direct to flash memory).

[savedbygrace]

Amazingly, some research I’ve read about indicates that the correct answer is 720p. However, there are so many variables that it is impossible to be definitive.

You’d think that the 1,152,000 additional pixels per 1080p frame would look better, but it ain’t necessarily so. The reason involves the trip those signals make through the transmission system, but there isn’t room for a detailed explanation here . . . even if I understood it.

The irony is that by the time HD sets have achieved saturation in U. S. homes, the vast majority of those sets will be so badly misaligned that it won’t matter much anyway.

Besides, content is king. Always has been, always will be.

You know the old joke: What’s the white stuff in chicken poop? That’s chicken poop, too.

Well, 130 channels of poop is still poop, even in 1080p.

[ricks_place]

The newer H.264/MPEG-4 codec is much more efficient. Maybe Dish or DirectTV switched to H.264/MPEG-4.

[HAL9000]

There is a rumor circulating this weekend that Apple is about to offer 1080p content on iTunes, combined with a new H.264 encoder chip -

The Eyes Have It: Last week's Apple mystery is all about video chips (I think)

[JZelle]

I’ll just wait until they come out with Blu-Ray sunglasses, then I can watch any TV in 1080P.

[LibLieSlayer]

Noticeable difference on a large enough display when sitting close enough to the screen. One of the dirty little secrets of 1080p is that if you are watching say a 50” Plasma at a distance of 10 feet or more, comparing a 720p display to a 1080p display (side by side and yes I have done this in my home), you will be hard pressed to see any difference. Move in closer to the displays... 5 to 7 feet lets say... and you can see the difference. If you view your big screen at close distances, then 1080p will be worth it to you. If your room setup precludes close in viewing, IMHO, you will reap little benefit. The larger the screen, the further the distance at which you will be able to detect the difference.

Here is another dirty little secret... most new displays... even 1080i displays... particularly progressive displays such as Plasma... the set will de-interlace the 1080i signal and you will actually be watching a 1080p signal. Blu Ray is encoded (the vast majority of titles) at 1080p, so a native 1080p set will not have to de-interlace the data before displaying it. This in itself can render a better picture... in some cases with some sets. IMHO (for the majority of the viewing public), 1080p is as much a marketing scheme as it is an improved picture. Front Projectors with 100 inch plus screens will benefit from 1080p, but remember these large displays amplify many anomalies that smaller sets mask. I'll leave you with one last bit of advice... ANYTHING that dtv or dish networks say... divide by ten and still be leery of it being the entire truth. Lies are a vast part of both companies histories... and charlie ergen of dish is a crook to boot!

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

But, is it really noticeable? At some point it seems like diminishing returns would apply...

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

Thanks for the input guys. Very interesting.

[Eye of Unk]

I will pass, there isn’t hardly much worth on TV to be paying for a new receiver, another dish, plus the expensive cables and a digital upgrade to my sound system, I already have a 1080P Toshiba 57” DLP and an up converting 1080P standard DVD player, its all I need.

All this extra stuff just to see commercials in hi=def? no frickin way, no thanks Dish.

[Sans-Culotte]

I will pass, there isn’t hardly much worth on TV to be paying for a new receiver, another dish, plus the expensive cables and a digital upgrade to my sound system, I already have a 1080P Toshiba 57” DLP and an up converting 1080P standard DVD player, its all I need. All this extra stuff just to see commercials in hi=def? no frickin way, no thanks Dish.

There's more to it than commercials. If you have an upconverting DVD player, you must be a movie fan, correct? I have quite a few HD movies recorded on my DiSH DVR. I added an external hard drive for even more storage (HD movies take 8-10 gigabytes of room). So, I have some HD movies that have not come out on Blu-ray yet, and I do not even have a Blu-ray player yet.

There are also some other interesting things in hi-def. I have recorded many episodes of Rudy Maxa's Smart Travels and Rick Steves' Travels in Europe, and the quality is phenomenal. Also, a lot of National Geographic and Discovery channels have interesting HD content. I do not have any of the "premium" HD movie channels. I have had them on as a free preview, and they tend to crop widescreen movies to fit the 16:9 display, even if the movie is meant to be shown at 2.35:1. I get a lot of HD movie choices on HD Movies and MGM HD.

[Gaffer]

Both of my HD DVRs came up with a message that new features were added in a download that would allow 1080P. Don’t know what this means other than 1080P -24 FPS.....