Posted on 05/22/2008 10:44:04 AM PDT by Oshkalaboomboom
Can anyone help translate some of this Old english? It is from a transcription on a tomb my wife did a rubbing of for a friend who is tracing his ancestry.
Man here thov mayste yntombed see a man of honest fame come home to earthe who in life bare Willm Cantrell name a gentleman in birth in life in ofice and degre now wrapte in clay then thincke oh man what shall becom of the this Willm Cantrell feofee was with others put in trvste regarded well for vertvovs life wise sorertrev and lvste even of the whole revennes of that mighty prince of the late Thomas Dvke of Norfolke highte somtyme of high estate
Some of the words were unclear even looking straight at the tomb so it may not be perfect but perhaps you can figure it out. Thanks.
By “Old English” do you mean the version of English that uses “he” as a neutral pronoun and uses “man” to refer gnerically to humans?
Well, I know enough that Vs were used for both v and u. So then trvste becomes trust with an e added. Ys were used as Is so that somtyme then can be read as sometime. Some of the words are totally incomprehensible to me however. Sorry:)
Richard Lederer
http://www.verbivore.com/askrl.htm
I’m definitely not an expert at all, but that looks more like Middle English than Old English to me.
Old English is often intelligible to those familiar with modern english, and is more germanic and celtic than english (take a look at the Beowulf manuscript for an example.)
In Middle English, you can make out most of the words, which I can here.
Some of the v's are really u's.
"feofee" isn't in there but "feoffee" is. So you have to hunt around. Most decent libraries have an OED. (I'm referring to the 20 volume set.)
ML/NJ
“Man here thov mayste yntombed see a man of honest fame come home to earthe who in life bare Willm Cantrell name a gentleman in birth in life in ofice and degre now wrapte in clay then thincke oh man what shall becom of the this Willm Cantrell feofee was with others put in trvste regarded well for vertvovs life wise sorertrev and lvste even of the whole revennes of that mighty prince of the late Thomas Dvke of Norfolke highte somtyme of high estate”
Man, here thou mayest entombed see a man of honest fame come home to earth who in life bore the name William Cantrell. A gentleman in birth, in life, in office and degree now wrapped in clay. Then think oh man what shall become of this William Cantrell’s feofee was put in trust with others. Regarded well for a virtuous life, [unknown] and lust, even of the whole revenues of that mighty prince, of the late Thomas, Duke of Norfolk, the height sometimes of high estate.
Best I can do. BTW feofee is an investment made by someone into a fief, as though the fief were a corporation.
I believe this part of the first line “Man here thov mayste yntombed”, reads A man here though may be entombed.
Looks like this William Cantrell was a member of the rural gentry who held some sort of office of trust under the Duke of Norfolk involving the revenues of his estate???
Not sure I have the right Willm Cantrell but this...
http://www.genuki.org.uk:8080/big/eng/LIN/Heckington/heckington_burials_1561.pdf
shows he died in 1571. Wife died in 1571.
FWIW.
Also, sometimes a ‘y gets rendered as ‘th’ as in “Ye”, and what looks like an ‘f’ may be a soft “s” as you may see even in later writings like our Founding documents...
That said, I have no idea what a “feofee” would be.
ME is still pretty hard to translate; but this one's not so horribly hard.
I think lust maybe list
fwiw, that’s not OE. That text is centuries after Chaucer, which was also not OE. That’s Shakespearean era. Incidentally, if he knew the Duke of Norfolk, he knew my ancestor who was his adviser, Robert Pace.
Wan that abril weth the suerth surte,
the drougth of March is pirced to the roothe
Looks like you nailed it. I believe your are correct with the fiefdom part as well, I stumbled on that one wondering if it might have been the same “F” symbol you might see in the word leftentant, or to represent an “s” like you might see in early Congressional documents where they show as “Congreffs”. It looks like these ‘f’s were actually f’s for a change. Your translation for revenues was dead on too, I was able to find it in an old Chaucer book. I am still hunting around trying find ‘sorertreu’.
Looks like a obituary or grave marker. I'm not an expert but I have done some study. This also does not appear to be actual old English but rather more late middle to early modern English. Think, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. I would translate as:
,
; Man here thou may entomb, see a man of honest fame (report), come home to earth, who in life, barred (carried the) William Cantrell name.
A gentleman in birth, in life, in office (job), and degree (education or knowledge), now wrapped in clay (buried). Then think oh man, "what shall become of this William Cantrell, Trustee"(legal title) was, with others, placed in trust. Regarded well for virtuous life, wise sorertrev (disposition ??), and lvste (??) even of the whole revenues of that mighty prince of the late (recently died) Thomas Dyke of Norfolk Heights, sometime (or temporary) of high estate (net worth).
Fæder úre, ðú ðe eart on heofonum, Sí ðín nama gehálgod. Tó becume ðín rice. Gewurde ðín willa On eorþan swá swá on heofonum. Urne dægwhamlícan hlaf syle ús tódæg. And forgyf ús úre gyltas, Swá swá wé forgyfaþ úrum gyltendum. And ne gelæd ðu ús on costnunge, Ac álýs ús of yfele. Sóþlice.
Man here thov mayste yntombed see a man of honest fame come home to earthe who in life bare Willm Cantrell name a gentleman in birth in life in ofice and degre now wrapte in clay then thincke oh man what shall becom of the this Willm Cantrell feofee was with others put in trvste regarded well for vertvovs life wise sorertrev and lvste even of the whole revennes of that mighty prince of the late Thomas Dvke of Norfolke highte somtyme of high estate
Actually, it is more Middle English and I believe it says:
The man who lies entombed here was an honest man who has come home to [rest in] the earth who in life bore the name William Cantrell. He was a gentleman by birth [nobleman?] in office [politician?] and degree [education?] and is now wrapped in the clay. Then think, oh man, what shall become of this Willian Cantrell? For he was was with others put in trust, regarded well for the virtuous life, wise [council?], and [lust?] even to the whole revenues of that mighty prince
Thomas Duke of Norfolk Heights, sometime of High Estate.
The earliest it could possibly have been is 1400, about two hundred years after the Old English period.
I'll modernize:
"Man, here you may see entombed a man of honest fame come home to earth who in life bore the name of William Cantrell - a gentleman by birth, in life, and in office and degree - now wrapped in clay. Think then, O man, what shall become of you. This William Cantrell was the owner, along with others, of an estate placed in trust. [He was] well regarded for his virtuous life, wise sorertrev and lvste [this is obscure and I have a couple of possible interpretations] of all the revenues of that mighty prince, the late Thomas Duke of Norfolk, formerly called of high estate [considered to be very powerful]."
Thomas de Mowbray, the first Duke of Norfolk, was stripped of his lands and title in 1399 - if he was "late" as of this inscription, it can only be 1400 at the earliest if legitimate.
Based on the word “Reuennes” which can be found in several books written in the mid 1500’s, the 1571 date is in the right ballpark.
Is ‘sorertreu’ just ‘so rare true’ ?
Here's some Old English for you:
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,Old English is just a little bit more difficult to decipher...
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas.
The text doesn't refer to Thomas de Mowbray. It refers to a much later Duke of Norfolk. In the 16th Century, there were no less than three Thomas Howards who were Dukes of Norfolk. There were two more Thomas Dukes of Nofolk in the 17th century, but my guess is that this is 16th century.
"I am registered to vote in Chicago."
I agree with your dating. I was simply pointing out that it could not possibly have been earlier than 1400 - in other words, long after Old English had ceased.
That’s better than any guesses I had :)
William Cantrell and William Dix were both granted lands in Sussex that had been stripped from Thomas Howard, 4th Duke Of Norfolk (new creation) in 1572.
Perhaps this Cantrell is the son of R2nd's Cantrell.
I was thinking that the ‘s’ in “sorertrev” might be an ‘f’, since they sometimes looked alike. For some reason I think ‘lvste’ might’ve been ‘trust.’ I’m no expert though.
My guess is that “sorertrev” has to do with the fief whose revenues he wanted to extract - “trew” (”trev”) could have meant the privilege of tribute or taxation from tenants of the fief. So we would have somoen with both the privilege and the intent (desire) to extract those funds from tenants.
Howard appointed William Cantrell as trustee of his properties in an attempt to protect them from the Queen -- whom he obviously feared might seize them after his act of treason.
Alleged treason.
Excellent find!
“Man here thov mayste yntombed see a man of honest fame,
Come home to earthe who in life bare Willm Cantrell name,
A gentleman in birth in life in ofice and degre,
Now wrapte in clay then thincke oh man what shall becom of the,
This Willm Cantrell feofee was with others put in trvste,
Regarded well for vertvovs life wise sorertrev and lvste
Even of the whole revennes of that mighty prince of the late
Thomas Dvke of Norfolke highte somtyme of high estate”
And thus perhaps then
"... for vertvovs life wise sorertrev and lvste even of the whole ..."
might be something along the lines of
"... for virtuous life wise so rare true and just even of ..."
Great catch, without seeing the rubbing even!
Nice catch! It scans very poorly.
Man, here thou mayest entombed see a man of honest fame come home to earth, who in life bore the name William Cantrell: a gentleman in birth, in life, in office and degree, now wrapped in clay. Then think, oh man, what shall become of thee.
This William Cantrell, fiefholder, was with others put in trust (regarded well for virtuous life, wise, sober, true, and just) even of the whole revenues of that mighty prince, the late Thomas, Duke of Norfolk, hight sometime of high estate.
[Hight=called.]
Only took to post #5. Pretty good!
That is what I was thinking. Sounds good to me. :)
Man - You
here thov mayste yntombed see - Here you see the grave of
a man of honest fame come home to earthe - speaking of the qualities of the deceased
who in life bare Willm Cantrell name - was named William Cantrell
a gentleman in birth in life in ofice - was not born into the lower class, held political office of some type
and degre - I'm not sure if this refers to education or modifies his social standing or the office he may have held
and now wrapte in clay - He's now dead and buried
then thincke oh man what shall becom of the this Willm Cantrell - (speaking again to the viewer) think what will become of him
feofee - an archaic word for trustee
was with others put in trvste regarded well was well regarded and trusted
for vertvovs life - for virtuous life
wise sorertrev - (I can't make this out)
and lvste - (I believe the word should be) list
even of the whole revennes - all the money of
of that mighty prince of the late Thomas Dvke of Norfolke - This probably refers to Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk and uncle of Anne Bolyne, second wife of Henry VIII.
highte - excellence or excellency
somtyme of high estate - sometime of high office (Thomas Howard was variously, Lord High Admiral, Lord High Treasurer, and Earl Marshall)
Hope this helps.
Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)
LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)
Alex, What is...
The Lord’s Prayer.
(Correct, for $1,000!)
Wow! We have some serious brain power here on FR.
I believe the William Cantrell buried in this church (Hemingstone, in Suffolk, UK) was interred in 1585. I won't be home for a couple of hours but I can verify it then. My wife was staying in Ipswich, only a few miles from the church, and she went there to do a rubbing for one of my coworkers.
Blushing....
Oh, not really. I just picked up on obvious words.
_________________________
Fæder (FATHER)úre, ðú ðe eart on heofonum (HEAVEN), Sí ðín nama gehálgod. Tó becume ðín rice. Gewurde ðín willa On eorþan (EARTH)swá swá on heofonum (HEAVEN). Urne dægwhamlícan hlaf syle ús tódæg. And forgyf (FORGIVE)ús úre gyltas, Swá swá wé forgyfaþ úrum gyltendum. And ne gelæd ðu ús on costnunge, Ac álýs ús of yfele. Sóþlice.
__________________________________
Now. What Alter Kaker said in post 25? I have no clue
Just saw this, glad you got your answer.
Have been working on my tons of lines in Middle Ages
and earlier for over 30 yrs. Middle english is always
interesting.
If you Google “William Cantrell”+”Norfolk” you get much information including the old books on line
I haven’t checked to see if anyone else got it, but is that the Lord’s Prayer? It looks a bit influenced by Latin, to be honest.
Good eye!
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