Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old

WCCO-TV ^ | Friday, January 12, 2007 | Associated Press

[SunkenCiv]

Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000 years old, according to a published report... Britta Bloomberg, Minnesota's deputy historic preservation officer, said it may be among the oldest known archaeological sites in North and South America. A half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have examined the site all said the artifacts are genuine, she said... Mattson said the objects were found underneath a band of rock and gravel that appeared to have been deposited by melting glaciers and then covered by windblown sediment, Mather said... [T]he site appears to be "much older" than the Clovis era of finely made spear points that defines the paleo-Indian period. The find is "startling enough that appropriate response from every archaeologist and glacial geologist is skepticism." But, he added, a half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have examined the site all say the artifacts are genuine.

[SunkenCiv]

[NonValueAdded]

I know it takes someone using a walker a long time to cross the street, but that pace is glacial!

[SunkenCiv]

See the Topper site topic of early this month.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[SunkenCiv]

I cane see what you mean.

[xcamel]

Walker MN:

sat map

[r9etb]

Found In Walker

Musta been one of these, with the handy carrying basket....

[stuartcr]

Must have been before the wheel...

[SunkenCiv]

I think the reaction to this find will be something like Young's:

Retracing the footprints of time
by Steve Sandford
September 9, 1996
web archive version

Direct radiocarbon dating of the Calgary site is not possible because the ancient artifacts were not found in conjunction with organic matter, such as bones or decayed plant matter, which is necessary for such testing. Absent such verification, Prof. Young dismisses the find. For one thing, he says, the artifacts are so simple they could merely be naturally-occurring rocks; he says that most informed scientists are doubtful they are tools. And even if they are tools, he adds that there is no way to be sure that they were originally situated where they were found under the gravel, since the site has served as an exposed gravel pit for the last 100 years. Comments Prof. Young: "Any dude could have put that rock there."

[stockpirate]

Not to bust their bubble, BUT their is a recently posted site here on FR that is in SC that has been dated at 50,000 years old.

Last time I checked 50,000 years ago is longer ago than 15,000 years ago.

[Young Werther]

more important Bob Villa states:...

"Their warranty is till intact!!!"

[ForGod'sSake]

Mattson said the objects were found underneath a band of rock and gravel that appeared to have been deposited by melting glaciers and then covered by windblown sediment...

So, these people were living under the glacier(s)? They were there before the glacier(s) formed? I don't get it.

[GoLightly]

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/larson/glacier_maps.html

[blam]

Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old

(AP) Walker, Minn. Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000 years old, according to a published report.

From the rough stone tools, archaeologists are speculating that "we're looking at certainly the relatively earliest occupants of the North American continent," biologist and archaeologist Matt Mattson said in a Star Tribune of Minneapolis report Thursday night. He worked on the project for the Leech Lake Heritage Sites Program, which is based near Cass Lake.

Britta Bloomberg, Minnesota's deputy historic preservation officer, said it may be among the oldest known archaeological sites in North and South America. A half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have examined the site all said the artifacts are genuine, she said.

The stone tools were found while archaeologists were investigating the path of a road where the city is planning to expand for a community center, housing and businesses.

Archaeologists found 50 or more objects while digging through an area of about 50 square yards. The artifacts ranged from large hammer stones to small hand-held scrapers.

Mattson said the objects were found underneath a band of rock and gravel that appeared to have been deposited by melting glaciers and then covered by windblown sediment, Mather said.

David Mather, state archaeologist for the National Register of Historic Places, said the find "is something off our radar. We didn't think it was even possible in Minnesota."

"(This) could be a real watershed for understanding Minnesota's history," he said.

Mather said the site appears to be "much older" than the Clovis era of finely made spear points that defines the paleo-Indian period.

The find is "startling enough that appropriate response from every archaeologist and glacial geologist is skepticism." But, he added, a half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have examined the site all say the artifacts are genuine.

Human remains, wood or textiles, if there were any, would have dissolved long ago in the acidic soil. The oldest human remains found in Minnesota belonged to the Browns Valley Man, who lived about 9,000 years ago. His remains were discovered in 1933 in a gravel pit near the town of Browns Valley in western Minnesota.

Walker is about 190 miles northwest of the Twin Cities.

[blam]

"Not to bust their bubble, BUT their is a recently posted site here on FR that is in SC that has been dated at 50,000 years old. "

My dad can beat up your dad too.

Calico: A 200,000-Year-Old Site In The Americas?

[blam]

Ping.

[Sawdring]

Here is the Star and Tribune Story.

Note where the glacial ice sheet was thought to have been during that time period with pictures of the stone tools also.

[albee]

A little old lady needed the walker to find some tools to fix her wheelcahir!

[blam]

Good link, thanks.

[Coyoteman]

Ping.

Thanks for the ping.

It would be interesting if this find holds up, both in terms of the early date and the tools.

I think I'll wait for a journal article or two to make up my mind on this one.

[blam]

Minnesota's Oldest Human Remains (9,000 Years Old)

"The remains were loaned to the University of Minnesota for a time and then were hidden in the basement of the man who found them, where they stayed from 1950 until 1987 until being discovered by a family member. They were then stored at Hamline University before being reburied."

[ForGod'sSake]

Thanks for the maps, but they don't really help explain how these artifacts could be found, in effect, under a glacier. Implied, is the fact these "tools" would had to have been on the site before the glacier formed. The only thing that makes any sense is that glacier(s) actually ebbed and flowed during the last glaciation and these tools would have been left behind during a "warm" period when the glaciers retreated before advancing again. Maybe that's a given; I don't know.

[GoLightly]

You raised a question that also came to my mind when I read the article. I'd looked for the glacier maps before I read your post & figured a good place to share the link was in my response to you.


"Though the lake's depth and size varied as the climate periodically warmed and cooled, causing the glacial ice to alternately retreat and then advance" / snip

"Advancing 200 feet a year, they were slowed only by mild summers in their many stages of retreat and advance over the last two million years."

http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/agassiz.htm


Wisconsin was also covered by glaciation:

"The retreat of the ice front was interrupted a number of times by readvances; the last one touched northwestern Wisconsin about 10,000 years ago."

http://www.nps.gov/archive/iatr/expanded/history.htm


So from a couple of different sources, the answer to your question would be possibly, yes. Younger Dryas event?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas


Deposits, like the stuff found in gravel pits are created near the edges of the glaciers. Hard to tell where the Fergus Falls & Leaf Hills Moraines were in relationship to Walker, MN, cuz I can't find Walker on the moraine map. The City of Fergus Falls is SW of Walker. (I'm thinking just under 100 miles)

http://www.co.otter-tail.mn.us/maps/agassiz-19.php


This isn't directed at you specifically, but I'm throwing it out there. I wondered where the huge lake created when the glaciers melted was in relationship to the site of this find. Lake Agassiz was northwest of the location. I could have sworn there was a big lake covering more of Minnesota, else, what formed those 10,000 lakes, rain, high water table? (I asked myself a question about how all of the freshwater fish were planted in the lakes in MN & WI during one of the numerous FR Crevo debates & came to the conclusion that many came from that big stinkin lake that doesn't seem to have covered the whole area afterall, giving me a new riddle.)

http://www.emporia.edu/earthsci/student/damery1/gl_form.html

Back to Minnesota & Lake Agassiz

Wiki article w/map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Agassiz

So how the heck do that lake way up north there drain into the Minnesota river, way down there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_River


Meanwhile, seems there's a claim of a "Skeleton of Minnesota Girl in clay deposited 20,000 years ago." Pelican Rapids, Minnesota is South & I'm thinking West Walker.

http://folsommuseum.netfirms.com/folsomman.htm

(sorry, just thinkin out loud here)

[SunkenCiv]

Hi, I think someone answered while I was napping (okay, I was at work), but basically, the conventional view is that glaciers spread out, and slowly push and drag other stuff. Ordinarily that would suggest this stuff came from further north. However, the quantity found in a small area sounds more like a seasonal camp (perhaps over many years) to my uneducated ear. :')

[ForGod'sSake]

Wow! Thanks for doing the work I didn't make the time to do. Your research efforts are appreciated. So it would seem that advances/retreats of the ice sheet could account for these artifacts' and their location.

Also:

I could have sworn there was a big lake covering more of Minnesota, else, what formed those 10,000 lakes, rain, high water table? (I asked myself a question about how all of the freshwater fish were planted in the lakes in MN & WI during one of the numerous FR Crevo debates & came to the conclusion that many came from that big stinkin lake that doesn't seem to have covered the whole area afterall, giving me a new riddle.)

FWIW, I've heard, I guess forever, the "10,000 Lakes" were formed by melting glaciers. I dunno; that's a lot of holes in the ground. And, aren't most of the lakes very shallow??? Anyway, these "lakes" would have dried up long ago without sufficient rain/snow to keep 'em filled, so who knows. In fact, the Minnesota River could have been a product of the melting ice sheet???

The faint blue outline is supposed to be the ice sheet ~15,000 years ago:

Also, seems I recall reading somewhere most of Lake Agassiz ultimately drained northward into what is now Hudson Bay, with some minor drainage to the south. That must have been a shock to the salt water system, eh?

Thanks again for your efforts.

[ForGod'sSake]

...the conventional view is that glaciers spread out, and slowly push and drag other stuff.

Good point; along with the grinding/scouring of the landscape -- to some depth??? The more I think about, the more their explanation doesn't seem to hold, er, water. Moving along...

[uglybiker]

So, these people were living under the glacier(s)?

Well, yeah. It's alot cheaper down there 'cuz you don't have the views.

[SunkenCiv]

Ice see what you mean.

[ForGod'sSake]

Well, yeah. It's alot cheaper down there 'cuz you don't have the views.

Heh. School district probably sucked too...

[GoLightly]

I did the research for myself, cuz I wanted to know. Figured if I was gonna take the time to do it, may as well share.

I forgot about aquifers. A lot of Wisconsin (and I assume Minnesota) lakes are spring fed. Other lakes are maintained by the level of the ground water. See simple diagram. :o)

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthgwaquifer.html

GROUND WATER ATLAS of the UNITED STATES
Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin
HA 730-J

http://capp.water.usgs.gov/gwa/ch_j/J-text1.html

[ForGod'sSake]

Icee?

;^)

[ForGod'sSake]

I forgot about aquifers.

That makes two of us. Still in all(and from one of your links), are replinished by precipitation. Fact is, the water table must be very near the surface in much of that area. Probably not many in-ground pools around; they might float.

[GoLightly]

Lack of in-ground pools has to do with the weather, not the water table. lol Most homes in this part of the country have a full basement. My well is almost 300' deep, which is slightly deeper than average for residential wells in this area. As long as you're not building on swampland, there's not much need to worry.

Parts of Milwaukee & Chicago were built on swampland. Milwaukee averages 634 feet above sea level, but "The Valley" is much lower. Chicago averages about 579 ft. Lake Michigan is at 577 ft (average), so you'd almost think Chicago would be underwater, but it's not, least not since the last time I checked. Chicago's earlier history shows that it had been a problem...

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/656/

There are some good graphs & info here about the Upper Fox Watershed:

http://pangea.stanford.edu/courses/gp104/waterscape/viewscaperk.php?entry=30

[Drammach]

The old stomping grounds of my mis-spent youth..

My grandparents (and other relatives) lived in Remer, MN, about 40 miles from Walker.. ( It is the county seat )

The whole area is sort of a cross between woodland and swampland.. There are numerous bogs, marshes, "potholes", streams, and more than a few quicksand pits in the area..
It is generally damp, even in summer, and mosquitoes are so thick in the evenings they can cover a man in seconds.. like a blanket..
If the mosquitoes don't get you, the woodticks will..

There is a historical Indian Mound in Wadena MN as well, used as some sort of gathering place.. ( religious, political ? )
It might be worth having some one checking out the history there as well..

[gearheadmn]

Okay, time for a little bit of friendly defense here. I know Matt Mattson and will attempt to subjectively answer some of the skepticism surrounding this find. One thing comes to mind when reading most of these posts; most of you have not read the WHOLE article, or read an incomplete version of the article. There are several versions floating around, as revealed by a thorough internet search of the subject. 1. This find was on a hill, a very high hill, next to Leech Lake, which has been documented by more than one source as a very active place of human interaction for many centuries. 2. Matt has studied northern Minnesota geology for over 30 years. I think he may understand more about the glacial movements and soil content than most people, (not necessarily all, okay). 3. Matt has been studying primitive tool making for over 20 years and, again, may understand more than most people concerning this subject. 4. These finds do indeed conventional wisdom concerning both glacial movements, and human development. They have not been made lightly nor without much introspection over an extended period of time. All I am trying to say is, do a little bit more research on the subject before challenging these finds.

[ForGod'sSake]

Lack of in-ground pools has to do with the weather, not the water table. lol Most homes in this part of the country have a full basement. My well is almost 300' deep, which is slightly deeper than average for residential wells in this area. As long as you're not building on swampland, there's not much need to worry.

Just an FYI re "floating pools" that might apply to those Chicage folks you mentioned from THE ILLINOIS DEPT OF yada yada:

The swimming pool should not be completely drained when the groundwater table is high because the empty pool may “float” out of the ground. In-ground pools are required to have hydrostatic relief valves which automatically open to let groundwater flow into the pool basin during the off-season. This prevents the pool from “floating” out of the ground.

And there are NO basements in this part of the country for the simple reason they would become indoor "swimming pools". We hit ground water at roughly 25' around here(shallower in some areas), and extra precautions have to be taken on, amongst other things, in-ground pools.

Your point re the weather is well taken however. They could be used as ice skating rinks during the "off" season??? And thanks for the additional links; interesting stuff.

[ForGod'sSake]

Since I have been a fairly vocal(when I discuss it at all) critic of the "scientific community" allow me to take a stab at your comments -- and welcome to FR.

In 25 words or less, way too much "junk" science has become mainstream, so you can certainly forbear some skepticism from the lay community? For the most part their craft is not so deep that it can't be understood by yer average couch potato if the "scientific community" wanted it understood. Their arrogance(?) precludes them from speaking to the unwashed? They might have to relearn English in lieu of the language of the trade. I suspect their (natural)ties to academia has contributed in large part to their attitude. We all know where most of academia stands these days, eh?

There's more but I already ran over 25 words so...

Again, welcome to FR.

FGS

[ForGod'sSake]

Oops, I should have added this part of the country as being the piney woods of East Texas. Sorry 'bout that.

[gearheadmn]

FGS; thanks for the friendly response. Matt could very well be considered a "renegade" member of the scientific community and most often not very fond of the "academia" which you now reference. His education is both formal and informal; more of it was gained working the soil of Minnesota, (and various other locales), than in a classroom. He holds no title other than "seeker".

[GoLightly]

Round here basements are common, cuz codes require at least 4 foot depth for footings. Footings need to be below the frost-line. Even a stoop that's adjacent to a house will have 4' deep footings, as will the floor of an attached garage. Anyway, by the time you've brought in equipment to dig down 4 feet, may as well go 8 or ten feet so you have a place for your furnace, water heater, not to mention storage for all of the crap that's just too good to throw away... yet. Besides, running plumbing through an unheated crawl space is just asking for burst pipes. (For seasonal homes, draining the pipes for winter is necessary.)

It's not a good idea to fully empty any pool for winter, even the above ground variety. The freeze/thaw cycle would also make the bottom of empty pools "float" upward & you'd hate to discover you'd built the thing over some huge boulder...

One of my relatives had a cottage & it was built many years ago, without footings to speak. Eventually, this huge boulder under it rose up under the kitchen floor. The center of the floor was inches higher than the edges, quite a memorable sight. Gardens in my area "grow" rocks in the winter.

I can see the value to having hydrostatic relief valves in pools where the water table is high. It wouldn't make much sense to have a sub-pump for that application.

Most pools have liners these days, even built in pools, so it's not the best idea to use them for ice rinks. It's better to just flood part of the yard. A thick slab of ice is unnecessary. If there's no natural low spot, a simple sand dam is usually enough to hold the water in long enough for it to freeze (most years).

They're building homes in places I know have less than 25' round here. Don't ask me how or if they have basements, cuz I don't know.

So, y'all live in an area where the water table prevents basements. Where do you go when there's a tornado warning? I lived through a tornado when I was 4, so they always kinda freak me out. I can't get to the basement fast enough when a warning is sounded. I set up supplies (TV, radio, flashlight, beverages) as soon as they notify us of a watch. The smallest room in the center of the house probably ain't gonna save you if the house gets hit.

[GoLightly]

I knew it was somewhere in Texas. ;o) I know they have to bury the dead above ground in some parts of Louisiana, cuz of the water table. Since you live in an area where there seems to be a bit more leeway, they still get planted in the ground in your area, right?

[GoLightly]

When you say high hill, would you be talking a hill like a kame, a drumlin or something else?

I think those in the field defending "common knowledge" would have more of a problem with the position your friend has taken about this find than someone like me, who sees it as interesting & an opportunity to learn about things I may not otherwise delve into.

[gearheadmn]

Okay, you got me on the "high hill" thing. Or should I say that you lost me? I honestly have no idea what a kame or drumlin is and I am now realizing that "high hill" is a rather vague term which definition would be greatly dependent on an individuals personal experience with hills. Lets just say that a good portion of Minnesota has gentle rolling hills, with a few specific areas which tower over the rest. I don't know the exaxt elevation of the area in question in sea level terms but do know that it rises up quite a distance from the shore of Leech Lake.

And yes, the topic in general does pose many interesting questions for the experts and the layman.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks. I wasn't online yesterday, looks like everyone else kept busy, eh? ;')

[ForGod'sSake]

He holds no title other than "seeker".

Thanks for the quick bio. I might in fact be more inclined to cut him a little slack since he didn't receive his "formal" training from the indoctrination centers.

Still in all, his explanation creates some confusion in my simple mind...

Regards

[ForGod'sSake]

Where do you go when there's a tornado warning?

If it's light, I go outside and watch for it ;^) Not always possible or even advisable given the severity of the storm. I've seen several up close and personal. Almost drove into one after making a turn once, but a James Bond turnaround got me out of harm's way. Another time, I had to stop on the levee over Lake Houton to let a small one go by about a half mile or so in front of me. When I continued on, the place where it had crossed the highway was torn to a farethewell. Anyway, I suppose I treat tornado threats about the same as lightning: chances of us being in the same place at the same time are very slim.

At night, I say my prayers and listen for the hail that almost always accompanies tornado producing storms; no hail, probably no tornado. These storms are usually short lived, so they don't often interfere with my, er, beauty rest(which I need lots of).

[ForGod'sSake]

Since you live in an area where there seems to be a bit more leeway, they still get planted in the ground in your area, right?

Meant to answer this in the previous reply, but memory lapses call for additional work it seems. But no, six feet under is not a problem around these parts.

[GoLightly]

I'm just parking these links here. The second one is an animation of the pictures shown in the first one. I came across the links while looking to find the answer to my own question about the type of hill we're talking about.

http://mrbdc.mnsu.edu/mnbasin/fact_sheets/glaciers.html#

http://mrbdc.mnsu.edu/mnbasin/flash/glaciers/glaciation_animation.html


They're looking for volunteers...

Sixmile Hill Archaeological Excavation
Must commit to 1 full session; may participate in more

Archaeological testing completed thus far at Sixmile Hill indicates that the site was occupied during the earliest Woodland period, which may extend from 3000-1700 years ago in the Mississippi headwaters region. No earlier or later components have yet been identified, suggesting that this may be a single component site.

http://www.passportintime.com/currentprojects/Minnesota.html


The site is about 150 feet above Leech Lake. While investigating the path of the road, archaeologists came across a pit they thought might be related to the fur trade, said Thor Olmanson, director of the Leech Lake Heritage Sites Program and tribal archaeologist.


While I'm at it, "Point May Be Oldest Idaho Human Artifact"

http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/tag/north+america#anthropologist691950


Since I'm wandering way off topic in this thread anyway, may as well throw this in for good measure, cuz it made me laugh. (Then again, I'm easily amused)

Is Finland in Scandinavia or not?
In Minnesota, the state with the most Americans of Scandinavian ancestry, this question is the stuff of great controversy.

Kate Parry, Star Tribune Reader's Representative

"It took many years in Minnesota for this lost Hoosier to gain even a rudimentary understanding of the subtleties of Scandinavian culture here -- where a meeting room full of silent people can mean a ferocious argument is underway."

http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/816992.html#cutid1

A share of my family lives in Minnesota. They must be among the more verbal Minnesotans, as their ferocious arguments are anything but silent.


Getting back on topic, this article seems to have more information, though nothing about that hill:

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2007/01/13/mn/1min.txt

I gave up before I found my answer. Could be because of too many side trips. I've been to Minnesota a few times & wasn't paying too much attention to the landscape, cuz it looked a lot like Wisconsin's landscape to me.

Is the hill round or elongated? Does it have a name?

Anyway, this site has photos of "Glacial Features in the Midwest", so you can possibly see the difference between a kame & a drumlin. I think the examples on it are a lot better than the ones used at wiki.

http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~maher/air/air11.htm

[GoLightly]

You're right about the hail, though the one that snapped the center pole of the tent I was in when I was little wasn't announced by any hail. My previous post has a link with photos. The main page has pics of the Devils Lake area, which is where we were camping when I got a good look see at what a tornado can do. We were probably saved by the bluffs, cuz it hadn't quite touched down as it passed over us.

My house has gotten zapped by lightening a few times, so your tale of bravado doesn't inspire me. LOL

[Drammach]

All I am trying to say is, do a little bit more research on the subject before challenging these finds.

I'm sorry, did I challenge any findings?

Seems to me, my post noted the lay of the land a bit, and indicated another area of possible interest for archaeologists / anthropologists..

I will assume that your comments were directed generally, at previous comments and not to me specifically...

[gearheadmn]

GoLightly; you have been doing some research for sure, (with a few light hearted side trips). http://mrbdc.mnsu.edu/mnbasin/fact_sheets/glaciers.html#
On this site please note the positioning of the glaciers in relationship to the approximated age of the tools found. It seems to be a pretty close fit. http://www.passportintime.com/currentprojects/Minnesota.html
This link is talking about a different, (though similar), project quite a distance from Walker. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Matt is involved in this one also. http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/tag/north+america#anthropologist691950
Interesting. Idaho VS. Minnesota. Football anyone?http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/816992.html#cutid1
I'm not going to touch the Finlander/Scandinavian controversy.
Getting back on topic, this article seems to have more information, though nothing about that hill:
Check out: http://www.rlnn.com
It seems that the top of this hill is about 150 feet above the shoreline of Leech Lake.
http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~maher/air/air11.htm

Okay. Confession time. My 56K has been trying to load these kame and drumlin pictures for about 20 minutes. I give up.
I can assure you that this hill is much more dramatic than a kame, but the drumlin pic's haven't shown up yet.
For general reference sake, look up pictures of Lake Superior's North Shore north of Duluth, MN. This gives you a general outline of the type of hill but decrease the quantity of granite and add in a lot more trees along the slope. Hope this helps.