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No NATO???
Posted on 10/18/2022 11:25:23 AM PDT by TheDon
Again,
***What is our national security interest in Ukraine?
***And how are the billions spent there helping me?
BECAUSE I live in the US, if you can answer those two simple questions, you can convince me.
Think about this for a second. If you can’t answer those two simple questions, how is it patriotic or somehow best for the country to back this war?
How about this for an answer: sometimes the interests of a small few that are very rich and politically influential are more important than the interests of the nation over all. But this small group of very rich also own the MSM and even big tech, so they can get you to stand behind Ukraine because of democracy, human rights and sovereignty. Hahaha
Did you know that pennies used to be made of one entire ounce of copper? That same penny today is worth about a dollar.
It’s also interesting that a dime used to be 1/10 of an ounce of silver. For centuries that amount of money was considered a day’s wage for a working man.
One dime.
1/10 of an ounce of silver today is worth around $3.
I thought you’d enjoy knowing that.
I knew about the penny, not the dime.
In the big picture we win.
We have been encroaching into Russia’s sphere of influence for years and this war in Ukraine is putting enormous stress on their armed forces (>150,000 men just from their regular forces are committed), they are diverting manpower from organizations they use to secure their frontier (Wagner group), their allies that are not entirely stable or secure themselves are sending troops (example Chechnya), there are considerable losses and depletion in material...
Russia is in a far weaker position on the world stage.
In places like Syria, Libya, Mali, Central African Republic, Sudan, Rwanda, Angola, Venezuela (all places with a Russian influence) the Russian position is weaker.
For example, for a long time we have wanted to do regime change in Venezuela (a major oil producer), if we take action today, Russia’s ability to come to the aid of this nation aligned with them is very limited.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-russia-exclusive-idUSKCN1PJ22M (the Russians have had to pull their primary force operating in their frontier to the Ukraine).
Another example is Syria. For years we have been trying to topple the government and install our own, one more friendly to us. Syria is a oil producer by the way. Syria has been formally tied to Russia since the 1970s and they have a navy and air force base there since then. Starting in 2011 we basically started an uprising in Syria but the Russians aided Assad and put an end to that. When things got serious, the Russians came in with force: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-russia-idUSKCN0RU0MG20150930
We are fighting the Syrian government and trying to have them overthrown, Russia is backing the government and trying to suppress the uprising and insurgency: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_the_Syrian_civil_war
By fueling this war in the Ukraine and making it as costly as possible, even though Russia achieved their political goals entirely (no NATO) and military objectives mostly (seize ethnic Russian areas), this will come with a huge long term pricetage for them around the world.
Russia does not have the resources we do. They are 55% our army, 43% our USN, 47% our USAF. They have less and weak allies. Their economy is smaller (about the size of Texas), population far less (42% ours), they don’t have the tech or industry we have. Ukraine is sucking them dry and they are literally running out of certain ordinance etc.
We are in a FAR better position today pushing our interests on the global stage in regard Russia is concerned.
However, none of this changes the fact that we started this war in Ukraine, that we lied, cheated... That our motivation is economic and you cannot give me a national security argument...
At least we agree on Syria which is voluntarily allied with Russia. The US has no business there.
Conversely, Russia has no business in Ukraine and Russia being weaker no matter how this war turns out will not be good news for Syria.
There you go with that sovereignty stuff again.
We basically put many of the key folks in Ukraine in power. Our US state department, USAID and NGOs worked diligently over the years to make sure our folks are in power. So how “sovereign” is Ukraine?
Likewise, in Syria, Assads father was put in power by the Russians and maintains power because the Russians back him.
When you have economic interests at stake, you have influence at play, and when you have giants like the US playing with some country like Guatamala or even the Ukraine, it’s a Goliath influencing a midget. It’s a game where one country has massive influence over the security apparatus, in international bodies, through their economic mass, in the media, through NGOs, USAID and the state department.
***If we told Mr. Z to negotiate with the Russians to end the war today, tomorrow you’d hear in the press how Ukraine is will to negotiate. “Sovereignty?!?!?”
Here’s the bottom line in both Ukraine and Syria. It’s the Russians playground historically, not ours. We are the ones that are sticking our nose into both of these places because of economic interests, trying to redefine who these places are aligned with.
Terms/concepts like sovereignty, democracy, human rights, transparency, freedom are meaningless feel good ideas thrown around at convenience to move the masses, to get them to support the political moves that are in reality motivated by hard cold economics.
“There you go with that sovereignty stuff again.”
Are you sure you’re on the right website? I ask because sovereignty is in American value.
Once upon a time.
We don’t export that anymore.
In fact, we actually overthrow democratic governments if they stand in our way.
You, I, our circle of friends might believe in God, liberty, value things like democracy and freedom, but as a nation is that what we really represent?
Again, riddle me this, who is our biggest trade partner?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States#/media/File%3AUS_trade_final-01.svg. A single party atheist regime that oppresses religion, had forced abortions, political prisoners...
What nations are our buddies in the Middle East?
Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Egypt... And yes Israel. How many are “democracies, free, respect human rights?” One.
Please prove me wrong with the above.
Democratically elected governments have also been our target:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/
So what do these terms “democracy, freedom, human rights, transparency and sovereignty” mean when it comes to our GOVERNMENTS foreign policies? When it comes to to the actual expenditure of money, when it comes to who we arm, trade with, support to make sure they stay in power, NOTHING.
What sort of sanctions did we put in place when the PRC drove tanks over pro democracy students on Tienamin square? We voted to have them get most favored trade status with us and admitted to the WTO!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man#/media/File%3ATank_Man_(Tiananmen_Square_protester).jpg
Why don’t you do a simple Google search on what despot has been on our payroll? Do names like Noriega, Saddam, even AQ ring a bell!!!! Democracy? Human rights? Hahaha
https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/19/us/us-admits-payments-to-noriega.html
Let me say it like this: If I say “follow me and bomb these folks because US corporations and political donars want this,” people aren’t going to go for it. But if I can somehow link it to some higher cause like democracy, freedom, human rights, transparency, sovereignty then a good percentage of folks will become agreeable to the idea. But it’s just junk 90% of the time post WWII. It’s just about interests and those are almost always economic.
After WWII when we assumed our role as the world’s most powerful economy, military, and political might, becomming interventionist and ever more assertive, things changed. It became all about one thing: $$$.
So, here we are, pretending to be pro democracy and Ukraine sovereignty when we installed the government there, and this same government censors the media (literally shutting down anyone that says anything unapproved) and bans the opposition parties!
And you don’t see a slight issue with that?
But sovereignty/democracy does seem like the better option, since we probably don’t want to go down the human rights argument, seeing what the Ukraine nationalists did for years in the ethnic Russian areas and all the reports that are still floating out there on that. We even had congressional hearings on that issue and we’re talking about sanctions not to long ago. Human rights is not what we want to touch seeing how we armed whack jobs like Azov and they did some really bad shit over years: yes, a factually Nazi inspired organization - notice how that got real quiet?
So sovereignty and democracy it is! At least on TV, news papers, social media, radio, political speeches...
But let me ask you this, do you think Biden, Soros, Gates, Musk, Bezos and a literal list of billionaires from the US and EU that are behind this are really alteristic types and care a lot about your sovereignty and democracy? Do you think these higher causes are driving their push to have Ukraine admitted to NATO (the cause of this war)?
Anyone notice the tweet in the article from “moon of Alabama”. I guarantee I know his freeper name. Anyone want to guess?
Someone should write a book about something like that. Maybe focus on the SW USA breaking off supported via corruption….. 🤔 never mind, no one would read it especially our FR war mongers. Our own FR gaslighted crowd will double down, make excuses… they won’t wake up.
Did you ever think to include a mass psychosis in your endeavors or do you think people would think it unbelievable?
We are sure in a mass psychosis now...
⌛📖⬆️
“Both Russia and the US are ruled in reality by a small group of “oligarchs.”
Agreed. Not sure how else to “overthrow” them other than to have a second Revolutionary war to throw wealth sovereigns out of government and politics in a similar fashion as the monarchy was removed from power in the American Revolutionary war.
It’s hard to imagine how the masses could ever consider such a course except wealth sovereigns are overplaying their hand the last few years and people are starting to notice.
In the era of limited government the problem wasn’t as pronounced.
However, today with a nanny state where government has their fingers in EVERYTHING from school lunches, how much water a toilet uses per flush, or what light bulb you use, this is causing for problems.
After all, pharma wants all their vaccines mandatory, for your health.
The only three companies that produce refrigerants think you should buy all their products a new every few years - to save you from an ozone hole.
And the insurance companies think you should be forced to buy their product too, because it’s the right and responsible thing to do.
The question is when Americans have had enough of epi pens: https://theintercept.com/2021/09/07/joe-manchin-epipen-price-heather-bresch/
Until then, it’ll only get worse.
No NATO???
You obfuscate the issue.
The topic is Ukraine.
Yes, we offered NATO to Georgia in 2008 and that is why Russia invaded. The Republic of Georgia can’t force or demand their way into NATO, and we all know who the real driving force behind NATO is, us.
We created NATO. We fund it disproportionately. We provide the key capabilities others (SEAD, intel, nukes, missile defense, real carriers, B-1/B-2 - strategic and certain high tech capabilities) do not have and volume in personnel and equipment others do not have. If you take the Germans + French + UK (added together), their Army is about 1/2 ours, their air force is about 1/3 ours, their navy is about 1/4 ours and they have huge gaps where they lack capabilities. Poland also has a voice in NATO, but if you think you run the place, you’ll delusional.
If we offer NATO (NORTH “ATLANTIC” treaty organization) to Georgia, far away from the Atlantic, bordering Asia, of course they will go for it, so would many others. It’s a club many would like to join. ***Georgia asked, because we tell them they can. Just like Ukraine asks, because we tell them they can.***
A nation can’t force their way into NATO, and we (the US) are the gatekeeper. We are to NATO what Germany and France are to the EU. And that’s fine. That’s not being arrogant or bad, because it’s only fair that the person who disproportionately pays and bleeds gets the final word. Likewise, if Germany and France want you in the EU, you get in. For example years past Germany was playing with the idea of Turkey and things were moving in that direction - not anymore. Turkey cannot force their way into the EU and they desperately wanted this. They have to ask nicely, and if they meet the conditions (or not, Greece for example never really met the conditions, past or present, and they’re in the EU) you get in because it’s in reality a club that belongs to the Germans and French, just like NATO is our club.
But none of this really matters. At this point you have a stalemate in the battle, with the Russians having accomplishing their military and political objectives, eventually the US will look for a way out. We won’t hemorrhage money forever albeit public support will hold longer than if we were fighting ourselves. There are only ~>214 dead US mercenaries as of January, 3 months ago, which of course the US media is downplaying and glorifying if they report on it at all. Most of the dead are simply reported in their hometown/local media and that’s it, because in this case, unlike Iraq 2003 we don’t want to highlight the casualties.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-americans-killed-luke-lucyszyn-bryan-young/
https://nypost.com/2022/06/21/american-stephen-zabielski-killed-fighting-in-ukraine/
(Segway to mercenaries)
Think about this. The US allows all these mercenaries free movement there and back. We know who almost all of these folks are and there are no travel restrictions put in place, no one is giving them a “talking” before they travel (Which is something done in the past and other cases when folks leave to go fight somewhere but we disagree with the cause). We allow the free movement of money. We allow the Ukrainian state department to advertise and recruit in the US for mercenaries out of their embassy and consulates: https://fightforua.org/ We do not ask Poland to intercept them (free movement across your border). And best of all, where do you think Ukraine is getting those US dollars from to pay for these mercenaries? The US. Have you read any of the stories that covered mercenaries in the past and what sort of spin they had? They were (((always))) negative, the entire concept of mercenaries was attacked in our MSM relentlessly and from every vantage point, and now suddenly they’re heroes. Wow-
Our ability to pivot on an issue is amazing!
When I was younger, I had an Atari 800. Back then, all the rules were different and it was folks like Bill Gates that pushed for this “piracy is not a victimless crime” crap. Realize, early in the game, it was questionable if you were even doing anything wrong when you copy a disk with a program on it. Eventually he and others got what they wanted, and you had law enforcement going into peoples homes seizing a 16 year olds computer and all the peripherals, if they were copying stuff. They didn’t really throw a kid in jail... After Gates became big, selling his worthless operating system to IBM for $1 per machine, he sold it directly to the consumer for 30 - 300 TIMES that and he made sure that law enforcement was his stooge to maximize his profits. Never mind that Windows was a monopoly for many years, the FTC won’t do anything. Never mind that MS bankrupted Netscape by bundling (dumping). Never mind that MS -STOLE- Borlands .net framework. That’s all OK, but if you do not give Mr. Gates his money, the police will come after you.
The point being that those with the money and political connections shaped the laws, regulatory code and it’s enforcement to suit them.
If you want to see the most brutal and obvious examples, just research how the H1B visa came about. Who was behind it and benefited for years. Or here’s another one: https://www.wionews.com/opinions-blogs/how-disney-routinely-exerted-influence-on-the-us-copyright-law-to-keep-its-greatest-asset-mickey-mouse-549141 (They just changed the law - flat out). Copyright was about to expire, push Congress to change the law. You can’t do that, I can’t do that, but Disney can.
If you live in Texas, ask yourself this, why during Covid, when everything shut down, did Home Depot and Lowes get to stay open? Of course all the big chain stores like Walmart and Target remained open and of course they allowed for the sale of items other than food. Even the chain liquor stores stayed open until that became a scandal. But Juan’s Taco truck had to close!
It’s real simple, those with the money, a legal department, lobbyists, who can pick up the phone and call the governor directly (i.e. attend campaign fund raising events) have the benefit of sitting at the table when the rules for the Monopoly game we all have to live by are written.
No, Red, I’m not obfuscating the issue —> you said in Post #64 that “Russia achieved their political goals entirely (no NATO)”
Even if you consider that purely for Ukraine - then Ukraine was not going to join NATO - they had been rejected once in 2008 and since they had a frozen conflict in the Donbas, they could not apply again until that was resolved.
And yet now we see NATO countries talking about letting them in nonetheless.
So Russia could have achieved the goal of no NATO in Ukraine if they had NOT invaded in Feb 2022
Which is why campaign contributions need to be limited to a maximum of $5,000 per cycle. These billionaires giving $400,000 and more have undue influence.
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