Posted on 01/02/2020 2:22:54 PM PST by fightin kentuckian
There is confusion about what constitutes “gun registration” I hope to clear up that confusion.
A lot of people wrongfully believe that when you go to a gun store to purchase a firearm and you fill out the ATF Form 4473 for the background check, that this constitutes a “gun registration”. This is not a gun registration, this is a background check to verify that you are legally allowed to possess a firearm. Let me explain.
On the first page of the 4473 under Section A, you write your personal information and answer questions such as, have you ever been convicted of a felony, and then your signature goes at the top of page two. The vendor takes your photo ID and fills out Section B. It’s here that they note the make and serial number of the firearm and then then they call it into the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). After about 20 minutes the check is complete and you’re allowed to purchase the firearm.
I know what you’re thinking, they have all of my personal info, a copy of my ID, and the make and serial number of the gun, now explain how this isn’t a registration. There are several very important aspects about how the AFT 4473 is handled that separate this from a registration. First and foremost the ATF 4473 is completely private. It’s treated the same as a tax return and cannot be shared with anyone not even a federal agency or state government. No one other than the NCIS is allowed to know that you attempted to purchase a firearm. If anyone releases a 4473 to the public, they go to jail. Second, you are not bound to the firearm listed on the 4473. In other words the government cannot come to your door in 10 years and demand that you produce the firearm listed on the 4473. That is illegal and that is at the heart of gun registration. Once you own that firearm, it’s your personal property and like all personal property you can do whatever you want with it. You can gift it to a relative or friend, or trade it, or sell it privately without the permission of the government.
Now let’s talk about gun registration. Gun registration is a government’s way of controlling firearms. That firearm is registered to you and your address; you’re not allowed to give it to a relative or friend or sell it unless the government gives you permission. And when you die the government takes ownership of your registered firearms. Also, let’s say that a state government, Virginia for example, has a firearm registry in place and passes a law banning certain firearms or firearms all together. The state, simply refers to its registry and shows up at your front door for a quick and orderly gun confiscation. However, if that firearm isn’t in your house then you’re going to jail. Firearms registries do not keep people safe they do just the opposite and destroy our civil liberties. Historically firearms registries do in fact lead to firearm confiscation.
Currently, California, Connecticut, DC, Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey and New York require registration of some or all firearms. And other states like Illinois require a permit in order to purchase a firearm.
In Dec 2012 the Journal News in upstate New York published the names and addresses of all gun permit holders in the Westchester and Rockland county areas of New York and had a map showing their locations. How would you like for thieves or Gov. bureaucrats (same thing) to know exactly what you have in your house? You wouldn’t!
On the flip side of the coin, if you live in Arizona, Alaska, Wyoming, Vermont, Kansas, Kentucky, Mississippi, Utah or South Carolina congratulations you live in a state that has the least restrictive gun laws.
For the record, I don’t agree with the current way of purchasing a firearm using the 4473 and the NCIS but it’s the law and I’ll go with it for now however I do not and will not support “red flag” laws or any kind of state registration or confiscation. That is illegal and unconstitutional and is a defacto repeal of our 2nd Amendment rights and must be resisted by all citizens.
TN holds that form for 1 year.
“TN holds that form for 1 year.” It’s my understanding that 4473 must be kept on file for 20 years according to Fed law. How do they get around that?
I will be filling out a 4473 next week when my gift to myself (LOL) arrives. It should arrive next week, hopefully.
I’d bet good money that 4473 is saved on a computer someplace regardless of the law.
There are no wrongs the guberment can do. Just ask them.
Not in Oregon. Sale must go through an FFL. Poorly researched.
“I’d bet good money that 4473 is saved on a computer someplace regardless of the law.
There are no wrongs the guberment can do. Just ask them.”
I agree 100% and that’s why I also support the shake up and restructuring of all 17 federal intelligence agencies.
About a decade back I sold a double handful of class III guns. Sten, FN-FAL, Uzi, MAC, M16, more. Expensive to shoot, they’d appreciated about 3 times what I paid for them and we needed windows, siding, and I had other hobbies. When the SHTF MGs will be out there for the taking...
Anyway, Maryland has this tax on MGs, $10 a year for reregistration.
I was at the Jessup (now closed) MD state barracks getting prints for another suppressor so I went upstairs to make sure my guns/name were taken out of their registry.
A cop sat at a computer, looked me up and said yes, no 3AM door crashing anytime soon (my joke, he laughed), BUT (and this is the point of this note) he said, “a lot of other guns are in here.” really? which ones, and he proceeded to read a list of 39 pistols and carbines I’d bought at local gun stores AND a few from California, and Hawaii. I thanked him and haven’t bought a gun since.
Not on a 4473 anyway, I have a C&R license and there are guns aplenty from 50 years ago.
NOT paranoia. States ARE sharing 4473 data. I know of at least three local gun stores the local jack-booted ATF thugs (thank you John Dingell for that appropriate appellation) have come in with copiers and burned off copies of 4473s all day long.
Ask around, it’s not just in Maryland. I’ve heard rumors (and a couple of first-hand stories) about INTERPOL getting this data, and hunters going to Canada being asked which gun they’re bringing into the country as the customs guy reads from a list of guns registered here in Maryland.
Now Ralph Blackface Northam is asking the legislature to cough up 4.8 million a year for an 18-member SWATZI team to confiscate firearms from refusenicks.
This won’t end well.
“...or sell it privately, without the permission of the government.
Not in Oregon. Sale must go through an FFL. Poorly researched.”
Thanks for your positive support but I wanted to put out something that was easy to understand without getting slogged down in detail about all 50 states laws. I hope you’ll find it in your heart to forgive me. xoxox
While i have purchased several new firearms, my favorites are purchased from private individuals, hence, no background checks, no paper trails. i do not trust any gubmint rules regulations, promises or indivduals representative thereof.
That’s what “closing the gun-show loophole” means, in practical terms. I’m sure the law is the same in many States.
“While i have purchased several new firearms, my favorites are purchased from private individuals, hence, no background checks, no paper trails. i do not trust any gubmint rules regulations, promises or indivduals representative thereof.”
I know what you mean. A buddy recently helped me out. He worked his ass off for me and wasn’t expecting anything in return. He’d mentioned before how much he liked one of the firearms in my collection so I gave it to him.
What you say is mostly true, but it still doesn’t make sense.........a 4473 is for a background check of the buyer, not the gun. So tell me again the logic of needing gun info on a background check.
“What you say is mostly true, but it still doesn’t make sense.........a 4473 is for a background check of the buyer, not the gun. So tell me again the logic of needing gun info on a background check.”
There are fields on Section B, page three, of the 4473 for make and model and caliber of the gun being purchased. I’m not sure if those fields are required or not. I’m assuming that since those fields appear they are usually filled out by the vendor.
ATF states that 4473 are kept NLT 20 yrs and when the business terminates it license or closes it doors, the bound book of firearm transfers goes to the ATF.
The government eventually has a record of all transfers by FFL licensees.
Not a requirement in most states on in state sales. Too tough to call out every shithole in the country.
The 4473 is not for background checks, the form predated the background check system. Information on the form is used for the background check, but that's not the purpose of the form. The form establishes a chain of custody for a particular firearm by it's serial number. The serial number is recorded by the manufacturer when it's sold to the wholesaler, the wholesaler when it's sold to the dealer, and the dealer when it's sold to an individual.
As stated above, the 4473 has to be kept for a minimum of twenty years by the FFL holder or when he goes out of business, then it has to be sent to the ATF for filing.
Here's the reason it's a system of registration: ANY time the BATFE approaches the FFL holder and requests access to his form 4473's he is required to give them access. That essentially means that all the information on who bought a particular firearm is available to the government. If a firearm is found at a crime scene the ATF goes to the manufacturer with the serial number, they name the wholesaler it was sold to who then names the dealer it was sold to and an agent shows up at his doorstep demanding to see the form 4473 to see who bought it. The dealer legally can't refuse to turn over the form.
That's a registration scheme. Sure, it's more cumbersome than having all that information in a computer database at the fingertips of the ATF, but other than an agent physically having to go to the gun dealer and demand the form 4473 it's no different, the information is still available on demand to the government. Now where that breaks down is as of right now sales between individuals aren't required to be reported to the government so the "registration" ends with the individual that first bought it from the FFL dealer. That's why the leftists are so hell bent on ending the "gun show loophole" which isn't about gun shows and isn't a loophole, what they really want to do is end sales between private individuals without going through a dealer so it can be catalogued thus effectively being registered.
They’re not supposed to be recording your phone calls either but they are.
The 4473 is registration...at least a first step. The ATF is completely free to copy 4473s at any time. You can be certain a registry of sorts is compiled using them + those turned in when FFLs cease business. You can also be certain NICS records are used to compile a registry even though it’s illegal.
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