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To: NorseViking
Well, the Poles made a couple of very bad mistakes in the 17th century as well as being the victim of other historical events.

First, they made the last Catholic king of Sweden king of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania, who continued to meddle in Swedish politics, dragging Poland into a disastrous war with the Swedes, that ravaged Poland and allowed the Duchy of Prussia to become an independent kingdom.

Second, what started as a civil war between small Polish landowners like Chmielnicki (whose father was part of the Polish occupation of Moscow in 1618) and the big landowners like Wisniowiecki expanded to include the Cossacks and finally the Russians, who seized the eastern Ukraine including Kiev from Poland-Lithuania.

Third, a resurgent Turkish sultanate attacked Poland in Bessarabia, another brutal war.

These conflicts were in some respects the Polish equivalent of the Thirty Years War, leading to a reduction in population of between 15% and 25% in the area still under Polish-Lithuanian control.

Lastly, the Turkish occupation of Hungary had forced the Hungarian nobility to make a deal with the Hapsburg monarchy, transforming what had been an ally into another potential adversary.

After Sobiecki, Poland found itself surrounded by enemies on all sides.

As far as "disorder" goes this was in part a quite successful propaganda effort by both Prussia and Russia against Poland, and in many cases what "disorder" existed was instigated by those same powers, such as Frederick the Great's deliberate counterfeiting of Polish currency to debase it and the Tsars' bribes to Polish nobility to disrupt the Polish-Lithuanian parliament starting with Peter the Great.

Regarding Polish misdeeds (in historical context), it's hard to think of any apart from Wisniowiecki's persecution of Ukrainian peasants and Cossacks in the 17th century, where impalement was a favorite method of execution used by all sides (a practice picked up from the Mongols).

Starting with Russia's occupation during the Third partition there's an endless litany of brutalities, starting with deportations, the theft of the contents of Europe's first public library in Warsaw by the Russian governor, the absolutely brutal forced conversion of Ukrainian Catholics to Russian orthodoxy, Cossacks riding down civilians in Warsaw, etc., etc. In addition to the mass murder of the 1939-41 period (when Stalin aimed to annihilate the Polish intelligentsia as much as Hitler did), there was the mindless vandalism involving the destruction of palaces and churches, as well the grotesque postwar executions and deportations of Polish Home Army members.

German brutalities were mainly limited to the 39-44 period, while Russian atrocities span centuries.

49 posted on 06/09/2019 1:10:44 PM PDT by pierrem15 ("Massacrez-les, car le seigneur connait les siens")
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To: pierrem15

In order to be a successful country Poland should abandon its Russia-envy. The game was played already.
As for the Russian atrocities the original Russian Independence Day is November, 4 after a day of eviction of Polish administration from Kremlin in 1612.
Another Independence Day was added on June, 12 to celebrate the Russian liberation from USSR and the original renamed a Day of National Unity in part to save the Polish feelings towards it.
As you can see both has grievances and it is mostly Russia working to overcome it.
Even during the Cold War Poland wasn’t treated by the Russians as a mere colony. Many things Polish were admired, Polish artists and writers had displays and presentations in Russia and their pop and movie stars were such in USSR too.

51 posted on 06/09/2019 1:43:28 PM PDT by NorseViking
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