Eighth Circuit: Open Carry not Reasonable Suspicion for a Police Stop

Gun Watch ^ | 30 May, 2017 | Dean Weingarten

[webheart]

But that is common on Freerepublic. The people here are exceptional people, far above average.

You say that now, but wait until you read any thread about space. You will see so many jokes about Klingons around Uranus that you will think you are among fifth-graders. And you won't believe how many "in before the...." posters there are.

[wastoute]

Exactly.

[IYAS9YAS]

I recall a thread on Meyers Briggs personality types here on freerepublic.

I worked with a guy who actually "studied" for the Meyers Briggs test. He'd managed to figure out what traits management was looking for in a supervisor, and he kept taking the test to see what it took to get those results.

Apparently back-stabbing weasel was not a category management was interested in.

[wastoute]

Actually, upon further reflection, carrying a replica in the open holster may not be that bad of a strategy. If the bad guy grabs that gun, now HE has a gun that doesn’t work. I, however, am not at that disadvantage...

[RitchieAprile]

or any thread about capital punishment which inevitably brings forth torrents of ghoulish proposals not fit for family reading.

[i_robot73]

>
Duffie and the City of Lincoln reached a settlement, with Duffie receiving $160,000.

That is atrocious! He should have gotten a MINIMUM of a MILLION DOLLARS!.

A measly $160k means the cops will do it again, and again....
>

Weren’t the taxpayers dinged ENOUGH @ 160K??

Now, we talking those ‘cops’ being personally responsible for the fees/court costs/etc., then I say the sky’s the limit.

Like anything else in life, once one is personally writing the check(s), one cares about cost/quality/acts/etc.

[bravo whiskey]

I have not seen any open carry in the Denver burbs. I conceal carry, usually with a dark t shirt with an aloha shirt over it or a sweatshirt in winter. I may open carry on 02JUN17 as this may be a new “day” designated by ‘tards in congress. NATIONAL GUN VIOLENCE APPRECIATION DAY. Www.wearorange.org. Even has a Spanish site for all the central America gang bangers. I shall wear black though my GLOCK does have an orange dot on front sight. May even open carry that day.

[SgtHooper]

Bingo!

[taxcontrol]

Absent a warrant or overt criminal act, there is NO justification or reasonable suspicion for a stop of anyone.

Note that a stop (coerced temporary restriction of travel or activity) is different from an encounter (voluntary engagement).

Encounter
An officer may attempt to hold a conversation but if the person does not wish to be encountered, they are free to go.

Stop
An officer prohibits either by action or command, a person from continuing about their business.

[Windflier]

As a practical matter it [open carry] is like wearing a sign for the bad guys to “shoot me first”.

For the record only, as I'm not trying to pick a fight or change your mind, I think that statement is unsupported groupthink. I've heard it a thousand times, but have rarely seen anyone making that claim, back it up with any real crime statistics or facts.

Conversely, I did read an excellent debunking of that theory on a gun forum I belong to, not long ago. I should seek the author's permission to post it here.

[taxcontrol]

I live in Thornton and we have a few that open carry from time to time.

[wastoute]

No worries. I am not someone who is going to reply with vitriol. I am always open to being “disabused of my misperceptions”. Gun guys in some cases seem to be pretty testy but I am not.

I posited once that “it seems to me a Luger is about the worst choice for a CC weapon for the same reasons “reloaded ammo” is...”. Boy, did I ever get chastised.

[wastoute]

LOL. But in so thinking (that a test would prevent it) what they actually set up was a selection process that practically ensured what they got was a “back stabbing weasel”...

[Manly Warrior]

“You have a plenty of bad guys deterred by open carry, so they do not initiate an attack.”

Citation for this statement or just conjecture?

Unless someone surveys crooks of all sorts, there is no way to come to this conclusion regarding the deterrent effect of OC. OTOH, one could probably glean enough data from news reports of OC being targeted- that too, is likely a small ( but really problematic) for those OCs who were targeted, if an were....

I think Kleck or Mustard or... surveyed incarcerated folks regarding their opinion regarding CC arms- the result was they did nto like it at all...

[wastoute]

I remember a briefing, decades ago, by a JAG officer in which he explained to us things we needed to know to fulfill our obligations as officers in regard to these definitions. As I recall he said we had the power to “arrest” just about anyone of lesser rank, meaning we could stop them from whatever they were doing at the moment in order to pursue our own orders as part of an investigation or observation. Nothing more. It was not to be interpreted as the layman would consider “you are under arrest” and handcuffs follow. IOW, “arrest” meant simply “I have the authority to get your undivided attention at this moment and once my obligations are fulfilled you are free to resume your duties.” Or you are obliged to take the next step if the interview reveals information requiring further retention and physical restraint. I suppose, if you witnessed a gross, serious, criminal infraction, even on the part of a superior officer you are obliged to “arrest” him, too, but that would sure get sticky very quickly.

[Edward.Fish]

Agreed. I’ve always thought the states have it backwards. Concealed carry should not require a permit. Open carry should.

I can tell you're not from the southwest!

The reason that open-carry and concealed-carry are treated the way they are is a cultural artifact, built up as follows:

1. At the outset, during westward frontier expansion, everyone needed a weapon for protection: for everything from Indian raiding parties to wild animals.
2. As things became more civilized (ie "wild west" era) that weapon attachment remained, and everyone who carried pretty much carried openly for matters of inconvenience; but because the carrying of a weapon became less needful it became less common.
3. Then, at that point, was when concealed weapons were used essentially exclusively by outlaws; example:
   1. Go into a bank w/ concealed weapon.
   2. Reveal weapon to suddenly dominate the situation; demand money.
   3. Leave bank and hop into your getaway wagon.

That's why concealing your weapon was/is considered a sign of ill intent -- for the law abiding man has no motive to hide his weapon.

[Leaning Right]

Interesting post. Thanks.

[AlaskaErik]

As a practical matter it is like wearing a sign for the bad guys to “shoot me first”.

I would totally disagree. Situational awareness is the most important aspect of staying safe. If you don't know what's going on around you and you are unable to spot trouble before it finds you, you are in way more danger, regardless if you carry openly or concealed. When I am in Arizona for the winter I open carry at times as it is simply too hot to wear extra concealing garb.

[PROCON]

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[AlaskaErik]

I’ve always thought the states have it backwards. Concealed carry should not require a permit. Open carry should.

The Second Amendment isn't about how a firearm is carried. No permit should be required for open or concealed carry. That's the way it is in Alaska, and rightfully so.