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Is There Something Wrong With The Term: "War Between the States?"
Old Virginia Blog ^ | 01-06-2014 | Richard G. Williams, Jr.

Posted on 01/11/2014 11:16:07 AM PST by Davy Buck

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To: Bulwyf

Another one of the truths about the war was that it tipped the scale of power to the federal government, creating the snowball rolling downhill that eventually became Obama and our new system of unlawful governance...Obamunism.

Those who cannot see the war for what it was beyond the part that involved slavery don’t seem to understand that they support the thing that Obama possible, and therefore support Obama.

They really hate that fact. But it is another simple truth.


51 posted on 01/11/2014 12:12:32 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: Davy Buck
The War of Hotel California.

You can check in but you can't check out.


52 posted on 01/11/2014 12:13:11 PM PST by gitmo (If your theology doesn't become your biography, what good is it?)
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To: EandH Dad

“Bumps in the road”- Barry Obama


53 posted on 01/11/2014 12:13:59 PM PST by Organic Panic
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To: Lee'sGhost

I see that from my own research on things, and I agree that paved the way for today. Slavery was what they cried about to the public to gain support.


54 posted on 01/11/2014 12:14:08 PM PST by Bulwyf
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To: rockrr

“but no one - even the rebels - considered unilateral secession legitimate.”

Says you, a yankee liberal.


55 posted on 01/11/2014 12:14:12 PM PST by CodeToad (When ignorance rules a person's decision they are resorting to superstition.)
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To: zeestephen

You are correct. It was about slavery. Southerners did not want to be enslaved by northerners and their all powerful federal government.


56 posted on 01/11/2014 12:14:29 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: Davy Buck

Civil War works for me. The country was divided in half


57 posted on 01/11/2014 12:14:49 PM PST by plain talk
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To: James C. Bennett

“Definitely not the CSA losers.”

Or the northern states that started slavery and held onto it even after the civil war was over.


58 posted on 01/11/2014 12:15:01 PM PST by CodeToad (When ignorance rules a person's decision they are resorting to superstition.)
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To: Bulwyf
Problem with that theory being, a lot of southern states are closer to DC than say, Vermont. Or California.

Somebody pointed out that many people hadn't ever been more than 100 miles from their homes. Part of it was that a war was a source of excitement, an excuse to travel, to partake of the pomp and glitz and glory of military service. Of course, it wasn't quite so much fun once they got there.

59 posted on 01/11/2014 12:15:14 PM PST by Wyrd bi ful ard (Gone Galt, 11/07/12----No king but Christ! Don't tread on me!)
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To: central_va

Mafia...post-war U.S. Same thing.


60 posted on 01/11/2014 12:15:32 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: Davy Buck

FWIW, War Between the States always struck me as the most neutral term.

Civil War implies war within a nation, whereas the whole point of the war was over whether it was now one or two nations. The term at least implies acceptance of the single-nation idea.

There are also variants of more extreme terminologies. War of Northern Aggression vs. The Great Rebellion.

WBTS is most accurate, IMO, because to a very large extent that’s exactly what it was, especially in the beginning. The Federal and Confederate governments just did not have the machinery in place to run a war of such size, with much of the organization defaulting back to states as a result.

If Union states had just refused to support the war wholeheartedly, it would have quickly petered out.


61 posted on 01/11/2014 12:16:07 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: zeestephen

There was a third nation, Mayland, that seceded from the South. Mayland had no slavery. The people there were brutalized by the North. I have visited some of the caves where the people lived for years hiding from the invading Yankees.


62 posted on 01/11/2014 12:16:24 PM PST by gitmo (If your theology doesn't become your biography, what good is it?)
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To: gitmo

Excellent!


63 posted on 01/11/2014 12:16:30 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: Lee'sGhost

LOL!


64 posted on 01/11/2014 12:16:40 PM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: Vaquero

“Fort Sumter could have been eventually negotiated, but the Rebs decided to start the war.”

It was an act of war for the USA to fortify Ft Sumter and to send ships to blockade the Charleston harbor. So, no, the South didn’t start the war. In fact, no one knows who fired the first shot.


65 posted on 01/11/2014 12:16:53 PM PST by CodeToad (When ignorance rules a person's decision they are resorting to superstition.)
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To: CodeToad
I don't know if you've ever read the supreme court case, “the prize cases,” but it has some interesting political rigmarole from both sides of the question regarding the issue of blockading the south.
66 posted on 01/11/2014 12:18:56 PM PST by Wyrd bi ful ard (Gone Galt, 11/07/12----No king but Christ! Don't tread on me!)
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To: Pollster1

It is a more accurate description of that conflict too.


67 posted on 01/11/2014 12:19:34 PM PST by jospehm20
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To: Sherman Logan

“War Between the States “

Same here. When using the term “State”, that doesn’t mean a State of the USA but a national State. A union is not a State. So, the USA and the CSA went to war, using their States to do it.


68 posted on 01/11/2014 12:19:46 PM PST by CodeToad (When ignorance rules a person's decision they are resorting to superstition.)
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd

The USSC is dead to me. They have rarely upheld the truth, much less the Constitution or what it stands for.


69 posted on 01/11/2014 12:20:42 PM PST by CodeToad (When ignorance rules a person's decision they are resorting to superstition.)
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To: CodeToad

“As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and her institutions, and would defend any State if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than the dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution.”

Robert E. Lee


70 posted on 01/11/2014 12:21:57 PM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: CodeToad
In fact, no one knows who fired the first shot.

Uhh, not exactly.

Edmund Ruffin, noted Virginian agronomist and secessionist, claimed that he fired the first shot on Fort Sumter. His story has been widely believed, but Lieutenant Henry S. Farley, commanding a battery of two 10 inch siege mortars on James Island fired the first shot at 4:30 A.M. (Detzer 2001, pp. 269–71). No attempt was made to return the fire for more than two hours. ... At about 7:00 A.M., Captain Abner Doubleday, the fort's second in command, was given the honor of firing the union's first shot, in defense of the fort.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sumter#CITEREFDetzer2001

Before the chorus of wiki-detractors chimes in, may I point out that they are free to post evidence that wiki is inaccurate in this case?

71 posted on 01/11/2014 12:23:30 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: rockrr

Always love it when folks point out that Southern secession was nothing more than a second Revolutionary War...with Southern states trying to reclaim the balance of power originally afforded to states.

Good post. Thanks.


72 posted on 01/11/2014 12:25:18 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: rockrr
"The fact is the constitution did not apply to any such contingency as the one existing from 1861 to 1865. Its framers never dreamed of such a contingency occurring. If they had foreseen it, the probabilities are they would have sanctioned the right of a State or States to withdraw rather than that there should be war between brothers."

-- U. S. Grant

73 posted on 01/11/2014 12:26:59 PM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Davy Buck

How about “The War of Slavery-Endorsing Democrats against the Republicans, founded and financed by those who believe in the dignity of Human Life”?

(I am well aware there were more issues at stake, and the federalism questions involved...so no need to flame. I just want to re-emphasize the oft forgotten FACT that Democrats are the party of slavery, segregation, and subsidies that result in dependence on government. Democrats are also the party of abortion and welfare—all designed to keep the population SUBSERVIENT to the bureaucracy.)


74 posted on 01/11/2014 12:28:59 PM PST by SoFloFreeper
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To: OneWingedShark
"Federal Supremacy" really didn't amount to very much for decades or generations after the Civil War.

If you were around at the time, the prospect of the old country falling apart and being replaced by something new, most likely two countries hostile to each other, would be more apparent than anything about who would have the upperhand in a country that might not exist any more.

75 posted on 01/11/2014 12:29:56 PM PST by x
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To: Sherman Logan
The War Between the States may be better than some other alternatives, but it has underlying assumptions that are questionable.

States weren't fighting each other. It was two governments that claimed to be federal bodies composed of states.

I wouldn't want somebody to think that it was all about an evil federal government or gang of bad states beating up on good states (or vice versa).

I wouldn't want people to forget that the CSA laid claim to being a nation or country or federation of its own.

76 posted on 01/11/2014 12:30:02 PM PST by x
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To: SoFloFreeper

You are viewing the mod 19th century form a 21st century perspective and are getting a very distorted view on American history. You are not alone in that mistake.


77 posted on 01/11/2014 12:31:10 PM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Gen.Blather
The war was always about slavery. It is quite disingenuous, IMNVHO, to claim otherwise. Witness the Confederate Constitution.

Pity. Because that's exactly what has damaged the cause of States' Rights ever since. Of course sovereign states may secede from a Union. Unfortunately, the main reason why the South wanted to secede was to preserve ... and perhaps extend ... slavery.

Mention the term "States' Rights" today and you will be called a racist. However, if the federal government fails to live up to its obligations, or intrudes into state matters, what other choice do the people of a sovereign state have? It's either secede, or armed rebellion, which are not the same thing.

Slavery probably could have been ended in a variety of ways, without war, as was done in other countries. E.G., witness the many plans to buy the slaves using bond issues, etc., free them, and send them to other countries. Actually done in a very small way!

78 posted on 01/11/2014 12:31:48 PM PST by Kenny Bunk (This GOP is dead. What do we do now?)
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To: SoFloFreeper
mid 19th century from a 21st

Corrected.

79 posted on 01/11/2014 12:32:01 PM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: central_va

Grant wasn’t stupid. Only fools believed people who had willingly joined a union from which the could not with draw. Only fools still believe it today.

Can’t remember exactly how many years it was, but I know some of the northern states had threatened to leave the union some 20 to 40 years earlier. Just liberals, I guess they believed it was OK if the did it, but other people. LOL!


80 posted on 01/11/2014 12:32:22 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: Hoodat
The most accurate name I have heard to date is
The War of Secession.

Agree.

81 posted on 01/11/2014 12:33:19 PM PST by Kenny Bunk (This GOP is dead. What do we do now?)
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To: SoFloFreeper

No. Doesn’t work. Ignores the fact that the north supported slavery and denied freedom to white Southerners.


82 posted on 01/11/2014 12:33:40 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: Lee'sGhost

It seems that Lee and Grant were both of two minds fighting Mr. Lincoln’s War.


83 posted on 01/11/2014 12:34:20 PM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Kenny Bunk

Mr. Lincoln's War

Accurate to a T...
84 posted on 01/11/2014 12:35:12 PM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Kenny Bunk

What’s your point? The north denied freedom of self determination to white Southerners, you know, like slave owners.


85 posted on 01/11/2014 12:35:19 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: Lee'sGhost
Funny you should mention this, as I just saw this story today:

Health Club's Membership Nearly Impossible to Cancel, Lawsuit Claims

86 posted on 01/11/2014 12:35:55 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: Davy Buck

“Why would the use of the term “War Between the States” particularly catch one’s attention when reading about that topic, also known as the Civil War?”

Loosely speaking, maybe because the States in Union created the Federal Government as their agent, not their ruler and the author of the quote:

a. Doesn’t realize this

or

b. Does realize this but also realizes that in the view of those who believe the Fed Gov should be the ruler instead of the agent, the use of the term undermines their belief as it recognizes the place of the states.


87 posted on 01/11/2014 12:36:00 PM PST by KrisKrinkle (Blessed be those who know the depth and breadth of their ignorance. Cursed be those who don't.)
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To: central_va

And may God bless them and their memories.


88 posted on 01/11/2014 12:36:49 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: Davy Buck
Much of the commentary about how the Union victory led to the decline and imminent fall of American freedom is based on a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

The inexorable expansion of the federal government and decline of relative importance of states followed the WBTS (though not for some decades), therefore it was caused by the WBTS.

Let us posit a world in which Africa was missing, and so no Africans had been imported to America. No slavery, no WBTS.

America would still have been settled by Europeans, and eventually probably have broken away from the mother country. Industrialization and its discontents would still have grown up during the later 19th and early 20th centuries, with resultant calls for government action to address those discontents.

In America the movement to do so was called the Progressive movement. But the exact same calls for expansion of central government power occurred in every other country that reached a similar stage in its development. Precise political issues varied by country, but the general trend is clear.

To believe that Lincoln "caused" the growth of federal power is just silly, IMO. He provided a significant precedent for such expansion, but the notion that TR, Wilson, etc. would have been unable to advance their notions without such a precedent is not logical.

Most of the federal growth during the war went away for the next few decades, not starting up again till the Progressives got going. AFAIK, they seldom cited Lincoln or the War as justification for the proposals.

89 posted on 01/11/2014 12:38:21 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

Lincoln ordered the fort to be resupplied and it was about to be. The ship was coming into the harbor.


90 posted on 01/11/2014 12:39:07 PM PST by castlegreyskull
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To: kosciusko51

LOL! It’s the Battle of the Bulge meets TWBTS!


91 posted on 01/11/2014 12:40:15 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: Sherman Logan

>>According to the author of this article, RE Lee used the term Civil War, so I fail to see why any good southerner would object to the term.

Did he use it as one would use the common terminology for anything? That does not prove his support of the term. It only proves that he was willing to accept the vernacular term.

It’s like when we call Progressives “Liberal”. There is nothing liberal about them, but that’s the term that has come into common usage.


92 posted on 01/11/2014 12:40:16 PM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Sherman Logan

Absent Africa there were still slaves, slaves existed long before anyone in Europe met an African.


93 posted on 01/11/2014 12:40:26 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: Sherman Logan

Quite possibly the war and the experience of troubles afterwards, Reconstruction and the like made people more cautious and suspicious of federal power too, maybe why our leftists were less successful for a long time


94 posted on 01/11/2014 12:42:51 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: SampleMan

What’s interesting about the title “War of Northern Aggression” is that the South fired first.


95 posted on 01/11/2014 12:43:25 PM PST by dpa5923 (Small minds talk about people, normal minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas.)
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To: gitmo
Mayland ?

If that's Maryland, it had slaves. New Jersey was also a slave state. Both remained in the Union, as did of course, Maryland. Delaware was a special case, with few slaves. Lincoln had a plan to buy their slaves into freedom, and use them to colonize part of Nicaragua just to show it could be done. Got turned down.

Further South, Kentucky and Missouri remained in the Union, but held onto their slaves, past the Emancipation Proclamation, which only applied to slaves in the Confederacy.

While this is all interesting history, all of the slave-holding Union States had emancipation plans, held in abeyance until after the war.

96 posted on 01/11/2014 12:48:02 PM PST by Kenny Bunk (This GOP is dead. What do we do now?)
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To: central_va

“The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom and forebearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for ‘perpetual union’ so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled. It is idle to talk of secession.” Robert E. Lee - January 23, 1861


97 posted on 01/11/2014 12:48:34 PM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: Lee'sGhost
.....it tipped the scale of power to the federal government

It certainly did.

98 posted on 01/11/2014 12:49:43 PM PST by Kenny Bunk (This GOP is dead. What do we do now?)
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To: Bryanw92
To claim that the CSA had no legal right to secede requires an honest person to admit that the colonies had no legal right to present the Declaration of Independence to the legal ruler of those colonies.

So therefore, that part of the world formerly known as the United States of America, shall thenceforth be known as 'British North America'. Men are to bow and women curtsey to your new Queen, Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, and now Queen of British North America. If you ever have the opportunity to address Her, you may call her, "Your Majesty" or "Your Grace".

In order to make things easier and more centralised (NOTE: 's' not 'z' which, by the way, is pronounced 'zed' not that horrid 'zee'), and to drain the swamp that Washington, DC has now become, your new Capital (no longer called a Capitol) will be d'Ottawa. Again, to make things easier, you will drop that insipid, "huh?" at the end of sentences and substitute the equally insipid, "eh?" at the end of sentences. OK, eh?

A fair warning to legislators heading to your new Capital d'Ottawa from Washington, especially those from semi-tropical regions like Florida and Hawaii. PLEASE be advised that in the winter, Washington is a tropical paradise compared to d'Ottawa. As a sign of the depth of love and respect by Her Majesty's government for Her new legislative subjects, a planeload of Stanfield's woolen longjohns will be forwarded to Washington. (Those legislators from Montana and North Dakota are exempt, as they should have their own woolies.)

Another note to assist our new legislators. PLEASE learn Franglais to properly fit in. It would be an especially wise idea to memorise various French phrases associated with the Roman Catholic faith, as such sacres assist in communicating with many Quebecois. Also, learning French words associated sex and excrement will help in communicating like a true p'tit gars. Memorising words such as, 'calisse', 'ciboire', 'criss', 'maudit', 'marde', 'osti', 'sacrament', 'tabarnack' and 'viarge' for inclusion in common dialogue will go a long way to increasing one's popularity in parts of Quebec.

One final note for all who have not yet figured this out yet. THIS IS NOT MEANT TO INSULT, MERELY TO BE somewhat HUMOUROUS. Seriously, there is one thing to note about all this. Our Prime Minister actually IS a Christian, unlike the current occupant of the White Hut!

99 posted on 01/11/2014 12:49:56 PM PST by A Formerly Proud Canadian (I once was blind, but now I see...)
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To: Lee'sGhost
Ignores the fact that the north supported slavery and denied freedom to white Southerners.

Factually inaccurate - but you knew that.

100 posted on 01/11/2014 12:50:52 PM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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