The Resurrection. Did It Really Happen?

On top of all jongaltsr has said the bible was written by men that had an agenda to advance a certain belief. Think of that in the context of how those that have a agenda today distort recent history in order to advance their agenda.

I will take what I believe about the Creator comes from the one source that cannot be faked and he has written himself and that is Nature. And I will keep an open mind to adjust my beliefs as we learn more details of what he has written.

Of course my belief relies on a certain amount of faith, but I know that that faith is based on the truth.

I do support the right of others to believe what ever they want as long as it doesn’t harm others.

I had intended on positing a more lengthy response to your last post which was full of error both in terms of characterizing what I was saying and in your understanding of Biblical authorship. You have been unwilling to respond directly to any evidences I have previously offered. What should change now? You are simply satisfied in your current state of mind (you call it openness), are willing to make accusations that you cannot/will not defend and then posit one more shallow argument before running out of the room to here/consider any response. And rather than discuss the totality of my response to you, you’ve cherry-picked a single statement and turned this into a new area for discussion. No mention of the Piso family. No defense of their questionable character/nature. You mention many empty tombs and...what can I say. Yes, you’re right. There were/are many empty tombs all over the place. Probably not just in the Middle East. But Christ’s was empty on the third day. The grave clothes were still inside. The body was not. And then the “body” that was supposed to be dead and buried starts walking around and talking to people and eating with people and takes a band of shaken-to-the-core followers who are hiding for their lives and offers them such hope that they are now out in the streets preaching His gospel. One of these, who boasted how he would die rather than deny Him, suffers such a monumental failure of loyalty (having denied Him 3 times, exactly the way he was told he would), is now ready to risk life and limb to preach the Gospel. Gets sent to jail, gets beaten, is crucified upside down for it. Who would do this for a hoax? Who would do this for some agenda? Who would do this because he thought he might stand to gain some power or position? This, too, is evidence for THE empty tomb (which I believe you knew we were talking about, but you would not stand THERE to consider THAT empty tomb. Peter preached to those who were alive and saw Christ crucified (heck, some of those there were the ones who HAD Him crucified!) Where was the counter-argument as he preached? Where was the counter-manuscript to challenge this? Your dates about scripture authorship take the later, but not agreed to dates (and some you cite are simply inaccurate—2nd century?) Most historians believe most of the books of the New Testament to have been written by 70 AD. Luke was likely written by 50 A.D. which would mean that there was an audience of quite a few people who were alive at the time of the events he was recording. You use some idea about writing and reading being illegal and punishable, as if that settled if for folks, “We’re just not going to read and write.” No. Even in Communist China, where it is illegal to have a church, there are churches. But, look at me. I said I wasn’t going to post long and here I am, attempting to persuade, convince, refute...

Therefore, I will stop. I will consider my work done here. We have left an electronic trail for all time of how each of us stands on this issue. We have We can both walk away knowing we have stuck to our guns, defended our positions (you, somewhat less so, in my view) and can go and tell others how we have “run the course, finished the race, kept our faiths.”

As to your view of God being witnessed in Nature, I couldn’t agree more. But, while you don’t believe He takes any more person interest in expressing His person, character, nature, believers of the God of the Bible do. You look for further manifestation of Him, some new revelation of Him to come forth somehow and He has done so in His Son. And here is an agenda for you, His Son has said, ”No man came come to the Father except by Me.” Now, that’s not a church talking. That’s not even a mere mortal talking. That’s the Son of God talking. I heard a person say once this: ‘There is only one sin that is not forgivable and that is the sin of denying His Son.’ God’s forgiveness for sin comes through Christ, the Son of God who bore [our] sin in His own body on the tree. Apart from Him, there is no remission of sin. Apart from Him, you die in your sin. Apart from Him all of heaven a person will ever know will be this side of eternity. With Him, this side of eternity is all the Hell a person will know.

I offer no church. I take up no offering. I expect nothing from you. I want nothing from you. I simply share with you what I have discovered, having turned my back on the religion of my parents, walked this Earth for 28 years tasting its pleasures and pain, exposing myself to its teachings and philosophies, and having come to Christ realized He IS the way, the truth, and the life.

May your continued quest for His presence lead you to the foot of His cross where you can look up and see law and grace, death and life, God and sinner all meet and One hanging there who was able to reconcile all things by the sacrifice of Himself.

‘There is only one sin that is not forgivable and that is the sin of denying His Son.’

Luke 12:10

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Know your Bible.

As for me I deny both his son and the Holy Spirit so in you eyes there must be no hope for me. You can believe what you want but any attempt to change my belief is a waste of both of our times. Also I am very sure that the reverse is true. All of my friends that believe as I do came too it on their own rather than any coaxing.

I do know my Bible. You need to read posts more carefully. I was quoting one who I heard give his take on the message of the Bible, and not quoting the Bible itself. And, if you were to rightly understand the Bible, you would understand that what the speaker was citing was a Biblical truth. Christ talks of the Spirit that was going to indwell His followers “which testifies of Me.” So, the point the individual was referencing was biblical. Knowing this comes from knowing your Bible.

As to your denying Christ and the Holy Spirit, you are accurate to a point. It is not I that says you are beyond hope, but God. And, like your friends, you cannot come to the Father except the Son draw you. So, they are in their state, you are in your state and I am in my state because of the drawing (or lack thereof) by Christ. Now, it could be that in our brief time, discussing these things, He has attempted to draw you, and you have not responded (in fact, I am sure that this is so...the purpose of the church, of which I am part, is to preach the Gospel to all men). It is not my job to save you, but to sow seed. Salvation is all of God (not you saving you, not me saving you, not some institution saving you, but Christ saving you.) That you stand outside of that salvation just now is of significance in terms of eternity. Eternity has begun and you and your friends and I are at a certain point on that time line (which here in this temporary house we call life has a beginning and an end, but, in terms of eternity, stretches back before the beginning of beginnings and ends way past the ending of all endings). Christ’s salvation is “to the uttermost” and for all eternity. That you don’t see this is understandable, these things are spiritually discerned and, not having His Spirit,these things are foolishness to you (who, the Bible says, are perishing). And not only are things pertaining to eternity foolishness to you, but all of the Bible. The Gospel. The cross. God becoming man. These things are foolishness to you. This doesn’t render them any less true; you just won’t subscribe to them.

And, so, you will not be convinced. Sounds like I have to agree with you on that. What does this mean for you? Nothing now...All things continue on as they were, “Where is the promise of His coming?” You don’t see it. You look at a creation (this is where you say you see God) and you cannot imagine Him revealing Himself beyond the intricacies, the beauty, the vastness, the scope, the breadth, the perfection of design. The very creation speaks of a mind at work, yet you do not inquire of it other than to commune with the things created and not the Creator Who created them. And this is what GOD calls foolishness:

Rom 1:20-22,25
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
...Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I responded to your postings because you are one who believes the bible despite fact and logic of human nature is those issues of transcription.

You will believe because you have been taught not to think beyond the box you are in.

You keep proving that fact so why don’t you just go your way and believe what you want to believe and I will go for documentation of actual script and not parchment that was missing for nearly 5 centuries and all that existed was copies of copies of copies etc..............................

By now.

The excuse of believing based on “Faith” is blind obedience but if it serves you well, so be it.

I have no problems with Christian belief. The “Best” people on this planet are generally Christians so I have no problem with that fact.

I just refuse to be blinded and accept everything that the Bible says because I know human nature to well.

Did Shakespeare actually exist? Some say yes and yet nobody can point to any one writer that claimed or could prove that he was “THE” Shakespeare.

“The excuse of believing based on “Faith” is blind obedience but if it serves you well, so be it.”

When I mentioned a certain amount of faith it was only in the context of that from my observation of nature and my reasoning it seems logical that a Creator exists. I cannot prove it at this time. Perhaps some time in the future we can. I think that the study of quantum physics holds some promise, but we shall see. As I said I will keep an open mind and adjust my beliefs as we get more information.

As far as blind obedience, I only feel an obligation to be obedient to my own conscience and my sense of what is right and wrong is based on reason, not what I read in some book or someone tells me. The Creator as I see him is not so vain as to require my blind obedience and worship.

As far as an afterlife, I have my doubts, but of course I hope for one. We can only know or if there is not one, not know, when it happens. In either case I guess we will least not be disappointed. I am happy if life on earth is all I get so I don’t spend any time worrying about it. I do not believe in a hell.

I only give thanks to him for giving me two things, life and the ability to reason. I have doubts however that he cares about my thanks, but maybe part of him does since I believe that the whole universe including ourselves is the Creator.

It is sad that this world is divided mostly by revealed religions that emphasize differences between us instead of a natural belief in a Creator that emphasizes that we really are all one, tied together in harmony with the entire universe.

http://youtu.be/pIJHJzDQcRM

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.