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Civil war may come to America
The Examiner ^ | November 19, 2012 | Jeffrey Phelps

Posted on 11/24/2012 7:51:21 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet

Americans were stunned last week, coming to the startling reality that citizens from all 50 states, hundreds of thousands of signatories, thus far, have petitioned their state to secede from the union, with at least seven states, as of Sunday, having the 25,000 signatures necessary to, supposedly, officially force a White House response.

It's not something many Americans want to think about, or be forced to come to terms with, however. To think the United States of America would ever be in a position of having to deal with multiple states having enough citizens to attempt seceding from the union is about as unthinkable a reality as imagining Hitler coming back to life and continuing on with his plans for a “New World Order.”

What's more, what would have to be happening in the country that would make so many Americans feel compelled to make such a desperate decision? Could it be as simple as conservatives and libertarians not being comfortable with a man of color being in the White House, the most commonly pushed idea.

Every American that pays even a little attention to politics knows there is a fairly deep divide among Americans with regard to political philosophy. After it became evident that Obama's promises of hope and change were not actually going to be fulfilled as was once promised and as it becomes evident that his administration's primary goals were to create bigger government with more and more regulation and control, the divide between the left and right in the country has no place to go but further and further apart. Entitlement and personal responsibility have never been at greater odds and conservatives and libertarians couldn't be more uncomfortable about the circumstances than they are today...

(Excerpt) Read more at examiner.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Conspiracy; Government; Politics
KEYWORDS: civilwar; cw2; cwii; obama
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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Comments?
1 posted on 11/24/2012 7:51:28 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Ya, the war is already here. The fighting is currently in the inner cities of Chicago and the such.

Won’t be long and it’ll spread.


2 posted on 11/24/2012 7:52:58 PM PST by cableguymn (The founding fathers would be shooting by now..)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
This is a really long strange trip through foil hat land. That such articles are appearing, unfortunately is not a good sign at all. People are mad as h-ll about Nov 6 and if Limbaugh's observation is accurate that ‘events rather than politics’ will bring down the regime then it is going to be a very bumpy ride.
3 posted on 11/24/2012 7:56:53 PM PST by robowombat
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The opening salvo of this war will be fired when the Obama Administration tries to take our 401(k) accounts and roll them into a government controlled annuity.

It will get violent at that point.


4 posted on 11/24/2012 7:57:10 PM PST by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I say let’s get this crap over with. They can have their glorious over taxed utopia in the north and we can have our jobs and fuel in the south.


5 posted on 11/24/2012 7:58:19 PM PST by unixfox (Abolish Slavery, Repeal The 16th Amendment!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Why do they always have to throw the “Man of Color” card.

Good God, I don’t care if he’s purple with pink polka dots!

It ain’t his COLOR

It’s his COMMIE Stand on EVERYTHING!

Jesus...I need a drink now.


6 posted on 11/24/2012 8:02:32 PM PST by Shadowstrike (Be polite, Be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.)
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To: Bryan24
The opening salvo of this war will be fired when the Obama Administration tries to take our 401(k) accounts and roll them into a government controlled annuity.

That's what everybody was saying about Obamacare. That's when we would say "Enough is enough!" But guess what, we stood by and did nothing and they are rolling over us like a freight train.

They are already taking more than half of our money and almost all of our freedoms. When do we REALLY say "Enough is enough" huh? When?

7 posted on 11/24/2012 8:04:49 PM PST by unixfox (Abolish Slavery, Repeal The 16th Amendment!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Can we get away from this idiocy?

Time would be better spent recruiting candidates for every district Federal and state in the USA for the next cycle.

I believe secession was tried with disasterous results.


8 posted on 11/24/2012 8:11:18 PM PST by Patrick1 (“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Nothing can “force” this White House to respond to anything, particularly in any sort of timely fashion.


9 posted on 11/24/2012 8:11:18 PM PST by Tanniker Smith (Rome didn't fall in a day, either.)
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To: Shadowstrike

Hear, hear! They think I vote with my ovaries, as well. Wrong!


10 posted on 11/24/2012 8:12:34 PM PST by RushIsMyTeddyBear (Great vid by ShorelineMike! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOZjJk6nbD4&feature=plcp)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Americans were stunned last week, coming to the startling reality that citizens from all 50 states, hundreds of thousands of signatories, thus far, have petitioned their state to secede from the union, with at least seven states, as of Sunday, having the 25,000 signatures necessary to, supposedly, officially force a White House response.

I wasn't stuned, I was laughing at how many idiots were taking this seriously.

11 posted on 11/24/2012 8:12:34 PM PST by Strategerist
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To: unixfox; Shadowstrike

I can’t add a thing to what you two have already said except......ditto.


12 posted on 11/24/2012 8:12:55 PM PST by RightOnline (I am Andrew Breitbart!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Have you asked Whoopie Goldberg for a comment? I wonder what she would say? /s


13 posted on 11/24/2012 8:17:27 PM PST by South40 ("Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance." - Barack Hussein Obama - Cairo, Egypt, June 4, 2009.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

As some of us continue to rattle around in the echo chamber.

There is going to be no Civil War. There will be no arms in the streets. There will be no war. This is idiocy. And some better hope not because the U.S. would win in an instant. Putting aside the fact that a million pop guns are useless against the U.S., it is not just brute force against brute force. The Gov’t has the edge in disrupting communications, supplies ... creating disinformation. But that isn’t the point. This is not EVER going to happen. So, we can work on letting America know why Conservative governance is a good thing, or devolve into absurd conspiracy theories. Signing a bunch of online petition means, precisely, ZERO.

Good grief.


14 posted on 11/24/2012 8:19:45 PM PST by RIghtwardHo
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Problem is, one side has 2,500 of these on order and that's just FEMA!


15 posted on 11/24/2012 8:20:23 PM PST by expat1000
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

When the freebies quit coming, there are only you and me left!

Obama is not ‘black’, he is a ‘mullato’, or in baser terms, a ‘half-breed’.

He came to office to destroy this nation, because he sees America as
a colonial power, no different than his true target of hate,
England.

His idea of ‘fair share’, is a word left undefined,
so he can reject all suggestions, as not enough, but
never quite saying when enough is reached.

He believes Americs has no right to any status in the world.
This is a marxist utopian idea of no State being greater
or lesset than any other, thereby a Stat e cannot influence
another, without consent.

He has supplanted the Lord His God, with the State as God,
Deliverer, Sustainer, Provider. If yyour life cannot be utilized
by The State, you are not required, either from the womb,
or in senior years. The victims of Sandy, as they wait for Obama
aid, he waits until the costs to him have decreased, in s sickened
mind view.

Civil war, you say? No. Cleansing the nation of Canaanites,
Moabites, and those darn Philistines, all over, again.
Don’t forget all those Levites, who swore an oath, then turned
their backs on it!


16 posted on 11/24/2012 8:23:03 PM PST by Terry L Smith
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To: RIghtwardHo

Yeah, but it’s so much fun to fantasize about it, like we did during the Klintoon reign of terror when we fantasized that he’d cancel elections and declare himself and the Missus Co-Presidents for life. Who says that history of fantasy doesn’t repeat itself?


17 posted on 11/24/2012 8:23:13 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Patrick1

Secession didn’t work all right back in 1860. Leaving aside any moral arguments, the practical fact was that the Union states could afford to wage a war of reunification. In 2016, will Obama be able to raise the funds to fight a civil war?


18 posted on 11/24/2012 8:23:24 PM PST by Lysandru
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

When the freebies quit coming, there are only you and me left!

Obama is not ‘black’, he is a ‘mullato’, or in baser terms, a ‘half-breed’.

He came to office to destroy this nation, because he sees America as
a colonial power, no different than his true target of hate,
England.

His idea of ‘fair share’, is a word left undefined,
so he can reject all suggestions, as not enough, but
never quite saying when enough is reached.

He believes Americs has no right to any status in the world.
This is a marxist utopian idea of no State being greater
or lesset than any other, thereby a Stat e cannot influence
another, without consent.

He has supplanted the Lord His God, with the State as God,
Deliverer, Sustainer, Provider. If yyour life cannot be utilized
by The State, you are not required, either from the womb,
or in senior years. The victims of Sandy, as they wait for Obama
aid, he waits until the costs to him have decreased, in s sickened
mind view.

Civil war, you say? No. Cleansing the nation of Canaanites,
Moabites, and those darn Philistines, all over, again.
Don’t forget all those Levites, who swore an oath, then turned
their backs on it!


19 posted on 11/24/2012 8:23:26 PM PST by Terry L Smith
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To: Bryan24

While we are at the gov petition page, go here:

http://wh.gov/9h82

and sign the petition to force Obama to show his birth certif and school records. +10K signed it already.


20 posted on 11/24/2012 8:23:39 PM PST by Fredsky
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To: Fredsky

Another petition to Obama himself. The last two posted here were axin’ him to impeach hisself! Best of luck!


21 posted on 11/24/2012 8:25:18 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: RIghtwardHo

“Fiddle-dee-dee! War, war, war; this war talk’s spoiling all the fun at every party this spring. I get so bored I could scream. Besides... there isn’t going to be any war.”

Scarlett O’hara, “Gone with the Wind”

(For the record, there was a war.)


22 posted on 11/24/2012 8:27:22 PM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Did anybody read the article?

It claims that "the rich are getting richer while the poor are getting poorer".

It claims that the "military-industrial complex has also grown to historically out-of-control proportions".

It claims that Obama's bailout money didn't go to his union buddies. It claims that Obama's bailout money went to wall street and greedy coorporations.

Folks, this article is meant to misdirect the "revolutionaries". It's big government propaganda.

23 posted on 11/24/2012 8:27:40 PM PST by FreeReign
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To: unixfox

That’s what everybody was saying about Obamacare. That’s when we would say “Enough is enough!”


Obamacare hasn’t really hit yet. They frontloaded what was popular and waited till after the election to introduce the controversial stuff. The consequences are already hitting in terms of layoffs and reduced hours. The squealing hasn’t even begun yet.


24 posted on 11/24/2012 8:28:47 PM PST by rbg81
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To: unixfox
But guess what, we stood by and did nothing

Not all of us stood by and did nothing. My wife and I and about a half a million others marched on Washington several times. We called out Senators and Reps, we supported FreedomWorks, attended local Tea Party rallies and just basically raised as much hell as we could.

The net effect: the press, if they covered us at all lied through their a$$ about us, our party completely dissed us as whackos to be shunned at every opportunity and the Progressive Government (of both stripes) continued rolling over us like a freight train.

Just wanted to clarify that.

25 posted on 11/24/2012 8:29:13 PM PST by ProfoundMan (Time to finish the Reagan Revolution!)
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To: expat1000

What Good Can a Handgun Do Against An Army?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/2312894/posts


26 posted on 11/24/2012 8:34:36 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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To: expat1000

That behemoth ought to sink real good in a sand trap.

You’ve got to remember, you can have the prettiest vehicle in the world but if you don’t know how to drive it effectively you can still get yourself in a whole world of hurt.


27 posted on 11/24/2012 8:38:20 PM PST by Have Ruck - Will Travel (Hmm, I wonder what would happen if I...)
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To: ProfoundMan

No need to clarify.

We know who the enemy is. We need to attack them with more than protests, emails and petty bullsh!t. THAT doesn’t work, that’s been proven.

We have to take them out by other means. Sorry, but that is just the way it is. And everybody knows it, they just aren’t saying it.


28 posted on 11/24/2012 8:38:34 PM PST by unixfox (Abolish Slavery, Repeal The 16th Amendment!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Just simply won’t happen. Reason being, there are simply too many people loyal to the feds in individual states. Recognize that loyal agents to the fed could simply send the message to not bother trying by simply massacring the state governments before the secession actually happened, effectively taking out any potential leadership from a seceded state and ending the fight in a heartbeat.

What I can see is the liberal side getting more and more confident, and more and more militant, possibly to go to the extent of acting like a mob out of that increased confidence. The corrupt government will do little. No this nation won’t end with a simple Civil War, it will end with a whimper as everything falls apart into mass anarchy.


29 posted on 11/24/2012 8:42:08 PM PST by Morpheus2009
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To: unixfox
They can have their glorious over taxed utopia in the northeast and we can have our jobs and fuel in the south and elsewhere. From North Dakota to Texas Voted for the Right, too.
30 posted on 11/24/2012 8:42:15 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: Bryan24

“The opening salvo of this war will be fired when the Obama Administration tries to take our 401(k) accounts and roll them into a government controlled annuity. It will get violent at that point.”

Just cashed out an IRA (pretty big one, for that matter), just for that reason. I don’t even mind the tax penalty.

I just wish I could do the same with my 401k...but about the only thing that I can do is borrow money from it.


31 posted on 11/24/2012 8:43:37 PM PST by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

“thanks to legislation like the “Patriot” Act, the NDAA and the John Warner Defense Authorization Act, for the first time Americans are now seeing US troops on the streets”

Where and when?

“Sick people and the terminally ill can be arrested for simply using natural substances, like marijuana, for temporary and sometimes permanent relief from their symptoms with very few proven, if any, harmful side effects.”

All my liberal psych text books are against the use of marijuana because of the danger of its side effects with long term use.

“Having a Ron Paul bumper-sticker can now be cause for one being labeled a terrorist and can give police a legitimate reason to pull them over”

Has this happened yet and are the standards still in place?

“The government can now spy on you, listen to your phone conversations, read your e-mail, break into your house and search your private property, arrest and detain you without probable cause, even torture you, all without a warrant and so many other examples of everyday circumstances that are giving way to an epic police state..”

Really?

“Unimaginable, humanitarian atrocities have been acted out by American and allied soldiers overseas and it is impossible to assume that this situation will make us more safe, either now or in the future, either physically or economically.”

Single incidents don’t make our wars the holocaust or abortion statistics.

“What’s going to happen when more and more people start realizing that the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and even Iran were all planned prior to the 9/11 terrorist attacks in lower Manhattan, for the purposes of carrying out a global control operation, called “Project for a New American Century,”

oooooooookay.

etc.

“If there is to be some sort of “civil” war, it’s not going to be between the left and right, the blacks and whites or the South and North, it’s going to eventually be between the people of the United States and those who have infiltrated the US and its government as sovereignty and freedom hating globalists and elite propagandists for a New World Order. Ironically, if you want to get technical, generally the same lineage of “elite” families and their minions that were the reason for the first American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence and the need for the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights in the first place.”

Does this guy write for Glenn Beck?


32 posted on 11/24/2012 8:46:21 PM PST by huldah1776
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To: Bryan24
The opening salvo of this war will be fired when the Obama Administration tries to take our 401(k) accounts and roll them into a government controlled annuity.

It will get violent at that point.
**********************************************************

Maybe or maybe not. If the market crashes again, then the Government can be a hero, step in and guarantee a small rate of return, even give you back some of the losses in the balance that they hold for you.

Or some other cockamamie story that the LSM propaganda machine helps sell. Heck they are so good at selling snake oil, they might just make the whole thing voluntary and most of the people will gratefully take them up on whatever elixir the political class is selling.

33 posted on 11/24/2012 8:52:35 PM PST by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
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To: RIghtwardHo
Putting aside the fact that a million pop guns are useless against the U.S.,

Except there are over 200 million firearms, some, the same as the US military uses held by 90 million persons in the US.

Popguns indeed. Whistling past the graveyard.

/johnny

34 posted on 11/24/2012 8:56:37 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Keep the Union but secede from the Government.

Declare the Federal Government invalid.

Rewrite the Constitution strenghening the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment shall now be known as the first Right of the People, and shall read:

"We the People, declare unto ourselves the Right to keep and bear arms. This Right is uncontestable and shall not be infringed.

Declare term limits for each office. President, eight years consisting of two, four years term, Senate. eight years, consisting of two, four year terms by appointment of their respective State Legislature. Congress, 8 years consisting of four, two year terms.

Define Treason and its ramifications to those elected to hold office.

Define Natural Born Citizen and its ramifications on the office of the President.

Feel free to add your input. Let's see what we can come up with as our new Constitution.

35 posted on 11/24/2012 8:58:54 PM PST by 41Thunder (The SUPPLY of Government is GREATER than the DEMAND of the people)
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To: expat1000
Those just look pretty. The bottom of a wine bottle and a few ordinary products from the average American's garage and beneath the bathroom sink will cut through that like hot butter and burn the the ass off of anyone sitting in it.

It just takes a little know how and a will to use it.

The average American has a lot of simple ordinary products in their house, as harmless as coffee (no joke), that can make some really nasty stuff and they don't even realize it.

36 posted on 11/24/2012 9:05:40 PM PST by Repeat Offender (While the wicked stand confounded, call me with Thy Saints surrounded.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Thanks for this thread.

__________

HEY! Jeffrey, Jeffrey Phelps! Yeah, YOU!

In 2010 the Silent Majority had a Taxpayers Revolt.

In 2012 the GOP endorsed The Socialist Father of Romney’care’ to run against the Communist Father of Obama’care.’

In 2014 State Constitutional Conventions will convene.

BTW Jeffrey, the only ‘surprised’ people about the necessary secession are the Liberal Agenda Media Elite, or LAME.

You need to get out more, Jeffrey. Rent a van, bring your laptop, and come visit us each week here in Flyover Country. We will be happy to tell you ‘how the cow ate the cabbage.’ Put your folding money away, as your first cup of coffee will be on us.


37 posted on 11/24/2012 9:06:41 PM PST by Graewoulf ((Traitor John Roberts' Obama"care" violates Sherman Anti-Trust Law, AND the U.S. Constitution.))
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To: Revolting cat!

Yes I remember all that hysteria about Klinton pulling some CR@p and using that to justify cancelling the elections..
. Never happened.
And all the groups for this or that which were asking for $10 or $20 a month to oust Klinton and his bunch..
They got a lot o money from little old ladies.... they took one lady I knew for a total of 7 grand over a period of a year and a half... $10 to 20 each month to around 40 different outfits :(
Once she sent to one, they put her on a mailing list to all the others :( :(


38 posted on 11/24/2012 9:09:31 PM PST by WildHighlander57 ((WildHighlander57 returning after lurking since 2000))
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To: Repeat Offender
Those just look pretty.

They also have the effect of concentrating the problem into one spot.

/johnny

39 posted on 11/24/2012 9:16:49 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: expat1000

Arguably, those units were paid for by the taxpayer.


40 posted on 11/24/2012 9:35:00 PM PST by Gene Eric (Demoralization is a weapon of the enemy. Don't get it, don't spread it!)
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To: unixfox

I’m not sure what we did was completely “petty bullsh!t” but there’s little doubt you’re right about the “what”. When you nail down the “when” and the “how” let me know where to be and we’ll likely join you. Freegards.


41 posted on 11/24/2012 9:36:34 PM PST by ProfoundMan (Time to finish the Reagan Revolution!)
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To: Bryan24
The opening salvo of this war will be fired when the Obama Administration tries to take our 401(k) accounts and roll them into a government controlled annuity. It will get violent at that point.

You can bet the farm on that!

42 posted on 11/24/2012 9:38:43 PM PST by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The topic is right on, but I was sadden to come to the realization that this article was choke full of libertarian talking points and libertarian idiocy. Like for example, a denial of 9/11. Blaming the war on terror on America and saying the world hates us for invading their countries. Too much Libertarian jargon. Libertarians talk about Liberty this and Liberty that and never say one lick about freedoms in our constitution.

There were parts of the article that were good though as the article went along. I would say it is right that a civil war is coming. So while this article is right with the bottomline and various points, it takes a Ron Paul loving libertarian take and thus is not factual with some of its points. Near the end of article it talks too much about Ron Paul as if this was a Alex Jones monologue on his radio show.


43 posted on 11/24/2012 9:55:52 PM PST by Mozilla
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To: 41Thunder

Personally I am ok with the Constitution and Bill of Rights as originally written. I am not so ok with all the amendment clauses and court interpretation/changes.

However, the USA no longer really functions as a constitutional government. What exists now is nationalist socialist totalitarianism directed at the behest of billionaire funded communistic cabals, executed by fiat by ruthless progressive elitists functioning as a defacto politburo, and supported by state controlled media propaganda, funded by criminal financial corruption at the highest level. Mexico is run the same way. So is the EU. The USA is supporting the creation and continuation of dictatorships in Russia, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Argentina — Burmah, really all throughout the whole world.

I cannot think of anywhere that is empowering more freedom among its citizens, no place springs to mind, anyway.


44 posted on 11/24/2012 10:10:28 PM PST by FlyingEagle
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Could it be as simple as conservatives and libertarians

Yeah, the most brilliant thing the left ever did, was to create the libertarians, they are the fifth column of the left.

45 posted on 11/24/2012 10:18:05 PM PST by ansel12 (The only Senate seat GOP pick up was the Palin endorsed Deb Fischer’s successful run in Nebraska)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
I could have sworn that it was the other side that voted by a majority to end the Union.

...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ...

When elected officials and bureaucracies act outside the law they are simply lawbreakers. When the majority of the people vote in favor of the outrageous lawlessness we have seen in the last four years in the highest offices they have intentionally withdrawn their consent to be governed by a constitutional government. By what legitimate basis does the United States of America, as a Constitutional republic, still exist?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

'The People' no longer support that. They voted in support of lawlessness from the highest office on down. They voted against the rule of law. By referendum we now have a banana republic. The USAINO.

46 posted on 11/24/2012 10:26:52 PM PST by TigersEye (Who is John Galt?)
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To: RIghtwardHo

30.06s are popguns! I kind of like that. They will certainly make a melon pop. ;-)


47 posted on 11/24/2012 10:32:19 PM PST by TigersEye (Who is John Galt?)
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To: Patrick1

Thank you for your post. I personally believe that the secession movement is a distraction from what should really be focused on: the building of a strong 10th Amendment movement.


48 posted on 11/24/2012 10:41:18 PM PST by TEXOKIE (We must surrender only to our Holy God and never to the evil that has befallen us.)
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To: ansel12

The libertarians created themselves. They want their favorite sin, usually, but want to keep a veneer of conservative-sounding talk. Gays, porn addicts, pro-aborts, and stoners, mostly, but it would never do to be a Democrat—then they could lose more of their money, which they want to keep to buy the things they love. Plus the Dem Party is so declasse.

Plenty of selfish reasons to be a libertarian. Don’t need to blame that one on the Dems.


49 posted on 11/24/2012 11:08:54 PM PST by firebrand
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To: Bryan24
It will get violent at that point.

I agree that 401Ks will be confiscated 'for the common good'.

However, I'm certain that act will be met with a whimper.

50 posted on 11/24/2012 11:12:18 PM PST by Washi (Look on the bright side: the world is scheduled to end on Dec. 21st.)
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