NASA Publicly Reveals LENR Research

Cold Fusion News ^ | Jan 12 2012 | admin

[Johnny B.]

No, actually it won't. Firstly, the block CANNOT be heated to 500C, as the heat is being drawn off as fast as it is produced by the coolant being continuously pumped in.

Nonsense. We're talking about something like 1.5 liters of water per hour. We're talking about Rossi pumping heat into his gadget for hours prior to the start of the test.

YOU don't have the science background to judge.

So Rossi has had to come up with DIFFERENT fakes for ALL THE DIFFERENT E-Cats that fooled ALL THE ATTENDEES every time. Sorry, but that is simply less likely than that the technology is real.

LENR researcher Brian Ahern certainly does have the science background to judge, and he said:

“Rossi has been clever enough to change the trick on each successive demo. Using a secret customer is a great way to allow him to fulfill his promise to demo the 1 MW unit in October. He then evaded conducting the demo transparently by saying that the customer demanded the demo conditions. The “customer’ signed off when Rossi gave him the wink and he shut things down without any measurements by anyone except the shill.

“Occam’s Razor, on the other hand, says that 12 inconclusive demos in succession are not random. It is well planned and orchestrated. He has used the journalists like a team of puppets.” (LINK)

So, go ahead and tell us all how any scientist who disagrees with the fanboy collective must be wrong, because the fanboy collective is so obviously right.

[Moonman62]

I guess when Kevmo's can't defend his blind faith in Rossi,

Blind faith? I guess you haven't seen this recent post by Kevmo:

I don’t find this article all that interesting. It’s basically more about Rossi than LENR. I’m a LENR fan, not necessarily a Rossi fan.

I think Kevmo is trying to cover himself for when this scam hits the justice system. Maybe keep himself from getting a ZOT, too.

[CodeToad]

Rossi has become a running joke. Not even the NRC would give the guy a second look and you can bet your last dollar the NRC and EPA would be all over him if they thought for a second he was working with nuclear materials of any kind. He isn’t.

[Lx]

Good point, I completely forgot that, what an idiot! Back to high school chemistry for me.

[Lx]

OK, let's look at this like we would have looked at Microsoft in March, 1986.

Micrsoft's first IPO

Of course hindsight is 20-20 and it's not just Microsoft.

There are a lot of people looking at this who could care less if the world had an unlimited supply of fuel, they want in on the ground floor much like MS's IPO.

I'd sure like to see what the big money folks are looking at. Today, tomorrow, twenty years from now, this technology will mature so it can be reliable used.

When was the sub, the Nautilus launched? In January 21, 1954. Nautlius underway on Nuclear power

That seems like a pretty damn good timeline considering we were wondering about the bomb before WWII and from going to bombs that can level entire cities, we have tamed fission so it fits a submarine.

On On June 27, 1954, the USSR had the first functioning power plant. First plant

Whoever guesses or researched correctly, will be rolling in money. Rossi knows this, he's not an idiot. Assuming Rossi's technology is real, what happens when an Atlas Shrugged goverment gets involved? Unless they wait until Rossi has a turnkey system, they'd need him to cooperate with them, good luck with that. I could see the UN getting their mits on this to, "Save the World" but as we all know, the only thing they'll save is their portfolios. I'm surprised we haven't heard rumblings from the UN over this. Nevertheless, they're shameless and greedy not to mention power hungry. It would be easy to control the world if you had control over the energy supply and I'm sure there is not one, not one poster on FR who supports the UN's me first agenda.

I could see putting in for 1,000 shares for the top five promising energy technologies.

If you scratch the obvious scams like:
1) Joseph Newman.
2) Steorn
3) Dennis Lee
4) Anyone promoted on Sterling Allans' website.
What are we left with?

1) Rossi (doesn't seem to want investors not to mention the infinite questions regarding his technology).
2) Defkalion, they copied Rossi so where are they going?
So, who else is doing research, not just for research's sake but to provide with an LENR power system? Who has the know-how, is reportedly working on LENR but is not releasing their results?

Which universities are spending scarce resources on this research?
What companies are doing the same thing?
I would love to get my mits on the correct company to invest in. While you won't make money overnight (despite the hucksters on TV saying otherwise) you will be involved on the ground floor and if you choose wisely and can wait, you will never have to work again. Sounds pie in the sky but I believe there's at least one or two companies who will break this wide open and I want to be there on the ground floor.

Forget all the bickering on Rossi, let's look with an open mind (not so open your brain falls out) and find these companies!

[Lx]

The guys on Vortex-L discuss this fact that self-sustain mode only needs a few minutes to surpass chemical capability at times.

Here's an example. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg51317.html Re: [Vo]:The September E-Cat Jed Rothwell Thu, 15 Sep 2011 07:51:45 -0700 Horace Heffner wrote: > More importantly, the claim that all the water was being converted to > steam, the repeated, defended, and heralded basis for thinking something > practical has been created, the basis for the "calorimetry" of the public > demos, is now shown to be without basis in fact.

The hose was taken off. > Water pulsed out of the outlet right at the exit of the E-cat in large > quantity. It obviously did not condense there. That is true. However, in the Krivit test and other previous tests, the flow rate was lower, so I do not think you can compare them. Also if they had put a probe into this stream of steam and water and withdrawn it, it would have come out wet, whereas in previous tests it was dry.

In general I agree that a non-steady state mixture of water and steam is difficult to measure. I wish that Lewan had sparged the steam and water. Before this test, I sent messages to Lewan, Rossi and others urging them to do this, but they did not. They had a perfect opportunity to do this, with that large plastic trashcan. It will easily hold enough water to condense all of the steam. By the way, flow rate was almost exactly 3 g per second.

Input power will be enough to vaporize 0.7 g assuming no heat radiated from the device. That is extremely unrealistic. So the fact that about half the water was vaporized does indicate there was excess heat. More to the point, during the 35 min. heat after death event, the temperature did not decline much. This is proof that there was anomalous heat.

Stored heat can only produce a temperature that declines rapidly at first and then gradually. After the power went off the temperature did not decline rapidly. Therefore the input power of 2.5 kW was only a fraction of the total power. If the total power was around 5 kW where 2.5 kW was half, the temperature would've fallen a lot faster and sooner.

Lewan estimates the water volume of the cell at 22 to 30 L. If there had been no anomalous heat the temperature would have fallen sharply within minutes. You can boil a pot of 22 L of hot water and observe this easily. Turn off the heat, and it stops boiling instantly. It starts to cool a few degrees in minutes. The temperature never rises and never stabilizes, unless you change the insulation (or the flow rate, in this case). In this case the temperature will certainly fall quickly because during the 35 min. 6 kg of cold water was added to the cell.

The heat capacity of this water far exceeds the total heat capacity of all the metal in the cell. > Now the new E-cat never reaches equilibrium. This is a far more difficult > regime in which to do accurate calorimetry, and a far better regime for self > deception. That is true, but there is no doubt it was boiling for 35 minutes with no input power.

Anyone who ignores this fact is engaged in the worst kind of self-deception imaginable. > Further, the E-cat mass has been greatly increased, and the max input > power increased. The "heat after death" from mundane causes will now > obviously be much longer. This cannot sustain boiling for more than a few seconds, at this flow rate.

Metal cannot store much heat, and this cell was producing excess heat the whole time, so there was no possible storage at all. With 2.5 kW input only, it would have transitioned from boiling about one third of the water to boiling none of it, and that would have taken a few seconds at most. - Jed

[Lx]

That is a more readable post than Kevmo’s post 39.

[Johnny B.]

Joe Zawodny (the NASA researcher from the video) has posted his commentary about the video HERE

Among the interesting parts:

As for what people are trying to read into this video, specifically my use of the word “demonstrated”, it is my professional opinion that the production of excess energy has been demonstrated when the results of the last 20+ years of experimentation are evaluated. There has been a lot of work done in the past 20+ years. When considered in aggregate I believe excess power has been demonstrated. I did not say, reliable, useful, commercially viable, or controllable. If any of those other terms were applicable I would have used them instead. If anything, it is the lack of a single clear demonstration of reliable, useful, and controllable production of excess power that has held LENR research back.

---

There have been many attempts to twist the release of this video into NASA’s support for LENR or as proof that Rossi’s e-cat really works. Many extraordinary claims have been made in 2010. In my scientific opinion, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I find a distinct absence of the latter. So let me be very clear here. While I personally find sufficient demonstration that LENR effects warrant further investigation, I remain skeptical. Furthermore, I am unaware of any clear and convincing demonstrations of any viable commercial device producing useful amounts of net energy.

---

Every attempted demonstration of a LENR device that I am aware of has failed to meet one or more of these criteria.

So, once again the reality is considerably less than the hype.

[Johnny B.]

4) Anyone promoted on Sterling Allans' website.

Sterling Allan has been heavily promoting Rossi, and to a lesser extent, Defkalion, for the last year.

So, your list of "credible" people is empty.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Nonsense. We're talking about something like 1.5 liters of water per hour. We're talking about Rossi pumping heat into his gadget for hours prior to the start of the test."

Sorry, Dudley, but all this statement does is prove your ignorance of science. Since the system is at thermal equilibrium (boiling, y'know), the "iron block" CANNOT GET HOTTER.

If one attempts to raise the temperature of the iron is increased, MORE WATER BOILS AWAY, and the iron cools off in direct proportion. There "is" ONE possible mechanism that would work, and that is through the use of a phase change material that stores heat by changing state (i.e. melts/refreezes).

Water, through the phase change from liquid to vapor can remove HUGE quantities of heat.

"LENR researcher Brian Ahern certainly does have the science background to judge, and he said “Rossi has been clever enough to change the trick on each successive demo. Using a secret customer is a great way to allow him to fulfill his promise to demo the 1 MW unit in October.""

If Ahern said that, he is as crazy as you.

"So, go ahead and tell us all how any scientist who disagrees with the fanboy collective must be wrong, because the fanboy collective is so obviously right.

So, go ahead and tell us how any scientist who agrees with Rossi must be wrong, because the skeptomaniac collective is so obviously right.

[Johnny B.]

If Ahern said that, he is as crazy as you.

I provided the link to his statement. The fact that you are unable or unwilling to read the original statement shows how stupid or biased you are.

Brian Ahern obviously thinks Rossi is a fraud.

And, if you bothered to read Zawodny's comments (just two messages above your ignorant response), you'll see that he doesn't believe that Rossi or Defkalion have demonstrated anything.

Ahern and Zawodny are far more credible than Jed Rothwell.

And, you're just a joke.

[Wonder Warthog]

"So, who else is doing research, not just for research's sake but to provide with an LENR power system? Who has the know-how, is reportedly working on LENR but is not releasing their results?

You left one of the list.....Piantelli (I don't recall the name of his company off the top of my head).

And Brilluoin Energy certainly is, but they are doing it totally out in the open. And you can bet that there are others, probably many more than B.R. (Before Rossi). But we won't know until they reveal themselves.

And of course researchers like McKubre, Ahern, Zawodny (universities, gov't agencies) may well be considering commercial ventures. You don't apply for a patent without having some kind of commercial prospect in mind.

[Wonder Warthog]

"I provided the link to his statement. The fact that you are unable or unwilling to read the original statement shows how stupid or biased you are."

I read the original statement LONG before you posted the link.

"Brian Ahern obviously thinks Rossi is a fraud."

Brian Ahern is a Rossi competitor, not a neutral party. But of course, you ignore any facts that don't foster your propaganda.

"And, if you bothered to read Zawodny's comments (just two messages above your ignorant response), you'll see that he doesn't believe that Rossi or Defkalion have demonstrated anything."

And Zawodny has ALSO applied for a patent in the area of LENR, and hence is a competitor.

"Ahern and Zawodny are far more credible than Jed Rothwell.

No. Rothwell has proven his credibility for years. You can say that A and Z have more technical expertise....NOT credibility. Rothwell believes LANR is real, but he has honestly looked at ALL THE DATA. And he's certainly more credible than Krivit, who you put unreserved faith in.

"And, you're just a joke."

And you're nuts.

[Johnny B.]

Brian Ahern is a Rossi competitor

And Zawodny has ALSO applied for a patent in the area of LENR, and hence is a competitor.

So... you're excluding the opinions of anyone who has done serious research on the subject.

No. Rothwell has proven his credibility for years. You can say that A and Z have more technical expertise....NOT credibility. Rothwell believes LANR is real, but he has honestly looked at ALL THE DATA.

But... you do accept someone who has done no actual research.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

And he's certainly more credible than Krivit, who you put unreserved faith in.

My only "faith" in Krivit is that he has so far published reliable links to other's data. That would be data you've consistently ignored because you just don't like it.

By the way, we're still waiting for the isotopic analysis of Rossi's "fuel" and "ash" that Kullander promised by Christmas. It's a shame that the first bit of actual evidence that might have given Rossi some credibility is nowhere to be seen.

[Johnny B.]

No. Rothwell has proven his credibility for years. You can say that A and Z have more technical expertise....NOT credibility.

That's an absolutely hysterical statement from someone who thinks that the anonymous representative of Rossi's "secret" anonymous customer has credibility. You obviously don't know the meaning of the word "credible".

[Lx]

So, your list of "credible" people is empty.

I should have been clearer. The first ones were the obvious scams and none were working with LENR. I included Rossi and Defkalion because they are working with LENR although by appearing on Allan's website, they appear to cancel each other out.

Still, who is else is working on LENR? I should have included Black Light Power.

[Wonder Warthog]

"So... you're excluding the opinions of anyone who has done serious research on the subject."

I've told you this before. I "ignore" nothing. But I do check ALL the facts, since you NEVER post anything that disagrees with your "it's a scam" meme. Both Ahern and Zawaody have a vested interest in discrediting Rossi. A "minor" fact that you apparently either didn't know about, or deliberately ignored.

"But... you do accept someone who has done no actual research."

Excuse me....."done no research??" Rothwell has been to the labs of, observed the apparatuses of (in action and not) more research in LANR than probably any other individual on this planet, and he has very likely help with experiments occasionally. He's actually put out some of his own cash the help out promising efforts. To make this statement shows you know NOTHING about the field of LANR.

"Thanks for proving my point for me."

The only "point" I've proved is the shallowness of your knowledge, your reasearch and your intellectual honesty.

"My only "faith" in Krivit is that he has so far published reliable links to other's data. That would be data you've consistently ignored because you just don't like it."

See my first point.

"By the way, we're still waiting for the isotopic analysis of Rossi's "fuel" and "ash" that Kullander promised by Christmas. It's a shame that the first bit of actual evidence that might have given Rossi some credibility is nowhere to be seen. "

I'll give you the same advice that I gave the Moonboy...PLEASE hold your breath while waiting....nutball.

[Wonder Warthog]

"That's an absolutely hysterical statement from someone who thinks that the anonymous representative of Rossi's "secret" anonymous customer has credibility. You obviously don't know the meaning of the word "credible".

Definition: believable

Synonyms: aboveboard, colorable, conceivable, conclusive, creditable, dependable, determinative, honest, honest to God, imaginable, likely, plausible, possible, probable, probably, rational, reasonable, reliable, satisfactory, satisfying, seeming, sincere, solid, sound, straight, supposable, tenable, thinkable, trustworthy, trusty, up front, valid

Nothing there about "depth of knowledge". Methinks it is YOU who fail to understand the defintion of "credible".

Here's a clue.....YOU....are NOT credible.

[Toadman]

How do they create an element that is the same mass as the original one but is a different element by adding neutrons; is that possible?

I'm not a chemistry pro, but I did remember something from my 101 class about an excess of neutrons or protons in an atom's nucleus. I cut and pasted the following from wiki:

"When there are too many neutrons or protons, the atom tries to make the numbers the same by getting rid of the extra particles. It does this by emitting radiation in the form of alpha, beta or gamma decay."

I'm one those folks who would like Rossi's ECAT to be real. However, Rossi's undeniable history, and the continued delays of bringing his product to the market, leaves me extremely skeptical.

It would be nice if I'm proven wrong and the ECAT turns out to be a revolutionary device that makes energy more affordable. I won't apologize, I'll just buy one. Mr. Rossi I'm sure will feel properly vindicated.

Right now, Rossi sounds like pelosi "we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it" except he wants folks to invest their money in ECAT, then the buyer can find out what's in it.

[Johnny B.]

Nothing there about "depth of knowledge". Methinks it is YOU who fail to understand the defintion of "credible".

But in another thread, just a day or two ago, you used exactly that argument to justify your belief in Rossi's anonymous engineer for his anonymous.

You told me that because the anonymous engineer seemed to know what he was talking about, it didn't matter that we knew absolutely nothing about him.

You are a hypocrite.