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Personal bleg: Unbearably warm office building (evaporative coolers on the east coast?)
dangus

Posted on 09/13/2011 8:24:53 AM PDT by dangus

I work on the top floor of an old, poorly-constructed office building. Heat rises up the elevator shafts from the lower floors to mine. Even on the coldest of winter days, it's uncomfortably hot inside (80 degrees plus). We have two portable air conditioners running, but they're of limited effectiveness since we don't have direct access to outside air. Although our city is very humid, the air inside the office is very dry, year-round.

Would anyone know this?:

Would this be a good use for a small, personal evaporative air cooler? Would it just cancel out the effect of the portable, air-drying air conditioners? Or would they each make the other more effective? Would the more humid air generated be harmful to electronics? (Another reason we have a heat problem is that we have several servers.)


TOPICS: Computers/Internet; Science; Weather
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 09/13/2011 8:24:55 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

What’s a BLEG?!!


2 posted on 09/13/2011 8:27:10 AM PDT by momtothree
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To: dangus

I’d move.

I’m not joking and I am not making light of this. Everything else is in the vein of “bailing wire and chewing gum solution.”

You need to move.


3 posted on 09/13/2011 8:27:28 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: dangus

Do you know what the wet and dry bulb temperatures are?


4 posted on 09/13/2011 8:27:27 AM PDT by Boiler Plate ("Why be difficult, when with just a little more work, you can be impossible" Mom)
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To: momtothree

Blog beg. IWO, using a blog to ask for something, commonly information.


5 posted on 09/13/2011 8:28:19 AM PDT by dangus
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To: momtothree

To bleg is to write a blog entry or comment for the sole purpose of asking for something.


6 posted on 09/13/2011 8:28:49 AM PDT by al baby (Is that old windbag still on the air ?)
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To: momtothree
What’s a BLEG?!!

It's personal.

7 posted on 09/13/2011 8:30:06 AM PDT by real saxophonist (The fact that you play tuba doesn't make you any less lethal. -USMC bandsman in Iraq)
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To: dangus; al baby

Thanks! I seriously didn’t know the answer. Now I do...


8 posted on 09/13/2011 8:30:43 AM PDT by momtothree
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To: dangus

I would think that if it’s a closed system that the air would saturate with moisture and evaporation would stop. It would also make the standard air conditioner run harder. Your best bet is a fan. You sweat, the fan evaporates the sweat, you get cooler.

Drink ice water and (if you admire the coworkers) get the company to institute thong Friday.


9 posted on 09/13/2011 8:31:21 AM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: cuban leaf

Not my call to make, except for leaving my job. And I otherwise like my job a lot.


10 posted on 09/13/2011 8:31:37 AM PDT by dangus
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To: cuban leaf

Sounds like a bad place to be in the event of a fire.


11 posted on 09/13/2011 8:31:51 AM PDT by DeepInTheHeartOfTexas
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To: real saxophonist

All I know is that it is raining in Las Vegas now (rare) and it is weird to feel humidity inside and out.


12 posted on 09/13/2011 8:32:16 AM PDT by cicero2k
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To: Boiler Plate

Dry bulb temperature can reach the 80s. I’m presuming wet-bulb temperatures would be much lower because it’s so dry... but I’ve never measured them.


13 posted on 09/13/2011 8:33:39 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Either way you need outside air. Any AC needs to eject heat somewhere and the evap needs new air supply or it will be 90% humidity in no time.


14 posted on 09/13/2011 8:34:08 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: dangus

Hey, I live in the south. People used to work in the offices here in full suits and NO air conditioning. So, if you like your job...


15 posted on 09/13/2011 8:35:08 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: dangus

You state that your air is dry; this *may* be because you are getting warmed up Air Conditioned air. AC units tend to dry out air as part of the cooling cycle (cold air holds less water than hot air, so it condenses).

Will a portable swamp cooler work? Short term - absolutely. Expect about a 15 degree drop, measuring incoming air to outgoing air.

Will it keep on working? That depends upon the airflow. If you have a steady stream of dry air coming in, and can vent the moist air out - you may have a great solution.

However - if the moist air cannot be vented out, and/or the dry air coming in is not meeting the output of your swamp cooler - you will wind up with a humid heat, which is even more miserable than what you currently have. In extreme cases, you can get moisture condensing on walls and windows - and add mold to your problems.


16 posted on 09/13/2011 8:36:22 AM PDT by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: MileHi

I’m presuming the moisture could dissipate downwards; the reason its so hot is that the air rises from the lower floors, where it can be like a meat locker.


17 posted on 09/13/2011 8:36:22 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

18 posted on 09/13/2011 8:40:55 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: JoeProBono

Is there a pump in the cooler to make the water circulate?


19 posted on 09/13/2011 8:43:04 AM PDT by linear (Permanance is indeed an illusion but no particular change is inevitable.)
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To: dangus

Evidently the air conditioning is doing the best it can since you say the air is very dry but still too warm.Humid 80+ would be even more uncomfortable than dry 80+ temperatures.Some fans for air movement and cool drinks are probably the easiest short-term solution.

Portable air conditions only add to the overall enviroment’s heat if they can’t exhaust the heat outside.

Twice I have had portable units rented by an employer because the main air conditioning was broken;and I thought those portables worthless:made a lot of noise and darn little comfort.WE ended up with a pedestal fan and drinking lots of ice-cooled water until the permanent unit was replaced.

Do you have static electricity problems? That could be very bad for the servers.Seriously.And could be a lever to have building management seek solutions.

I know of past workplaces where the air conditioning was only installed after computerization! Before computers the workers just had to sweat.


20 posted on 09/13/2011 8:43:37 AM PDT by hoosierham (Waddaya mean Freedom isn't free ?;will you take a credit card?)
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To: dangus

Well the evap has to be a once through path. If it sits in and draws air from a closed space it won’t be effective, you will end up blowing around hot moist air.


21 posted on 09/13/2011 8:46:12 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: dangus

I’d get an air conditioning specialist to take a look at your office to get a professional opinion. Noone can tell you what the reality is concerning your office by just your description.


22 posted on 09/13/2011 8:46:14 AM PDT by Dogbert41 (http://www.durban3nyc.com/. Go there and learn what those who seek to destroy Israel are up to)
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To: dangus
Get a professional HVAC company to come in and assess your heat load in the rooms you need cooled. They can determine the correct tonnage needed too cool it. It sounds like you are trying to do too much cooling with too small of units. My guess off the top of my head for a couple of smaller electronics rooms is about 5 - 7.5 tons. We had too do this in a couple of vital areas on the ship and used water cooled condensers to take the condenser heat out. The condenser is the outside unit.
23 posted on 09/13/2011 8:48:39 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: hoosierham
I forgot that commercial A/C has reheat coils ;sometimes the process of reducing the moisture results in air deemed too cold for comfort so it is then warmed before being sent to the offices.It's been over a decade since I worked with building utilities.

It could be the A/C controller is set up poorly and just needs a knowledgeable person to adjust it.I don't mean the wall controls but the main system controller which is likely computerized,unless really old.

Unless the unit is sized wrong for that building or has failed components,it is most likely adjusted improperly.

24 posted on 09/13/2011 8:52:45 AM PDT by hoosierham (Waddaya mean Freedom isn't free ?;will you take a credit card?)
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To: dangus

I agree, we should all take our tops off


25 posted on 09/13/2011 8:54:07 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Boiler Plate
Do you know what the wet and dry bulb temperatures are?

That sounds naughty

26 posted on 09/13/2011 8:55:36 AM PDT by al baby (Is that old windbag still on the air ?)
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To: dangus
BTW, Mitsubishi makes ductless systems that would mount the condenser on the roof (you said you are on the top floor) and the evaporator in the room with only a couple small holes through the roof for copper refrigerant lines.
27 posted on 09/13/2011 8:56:13 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: dangus
Agree with some other posts; have a HVAC expert take a look at the building’s requirements. Also, have someone look at the kind of lighting in each office.
28 posted on 09/13/2011 9:04:53 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (I want a Triple A president for our Triple A country)
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To: dangus
The problem is that any solution to the building cooling problem will cost money, and it is obvious that your building owner is disinclined to spend any.

So for you personally, the only thing you can do is to wear a cool suit, like the NASCAR drivers do.


29 posted on 09/13/2011 9:18:35 AM PDT by Yo-Yo (Is the /sarc tag really necessary?)
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To: MileHi
BTW, Mitsubishi makes ductless systems that would mount the condenser on the roof (you said you are on the top floor) and the evaporator in the room with only a couple small holes through the roof for copper refrigerant lines.

Bingo, best solution. I was going to post it but read the threads first.

Mitsubishi is on the higher end of the price scale but there are a number of brands to look at.

Swamp coolers, as we call them out west, will not work in your climate.

30 posted on 09/13/2011 9:30:12 AM PDT by keat
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To: dangus

“We have two portable air conditioners running, but they’re of limited effectiveness since we don’t have direct access to outside air.”

Turn them off. They’re making things worse.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics


31 posted on 09/13/2011 11:02:58 AM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order.)
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To: momtothree
What’s a BLEG?!!

The fallback when the ALEG fails. Eployee manual section Z31.a.b.c010804.14 - acronyms.

32 posted on 09/13/2011 11:23:15 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Rose, there's a Messerschmitt in the kitchen. Clean it up, will ya?)
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To: cuban leaf

Hey, I live in the south. People used to work in the offices here in full suits and NO air conditioning. So, if you like your job...
***********************************************
Yes they did ,, and in much shorter buildings that had less chimney effect ,,, and they had windows that opened ... What’s your point?


33 posted on 09/13/2011 12:11:16 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
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To: Neidermeyer

—Yes they did ,, and in much shorter buildings that had less chimney effect ,,, and they had windows that opened ... What’s your point?—

My point is that human beings are resilient and can work with negatives if the positives are greater. That’s really all I meant.

Also, opening windows when the temperature is in the 90’s and the humidity is sky high isn’t all that helpful. ;->


34 posted on 09/13/2011 12:38:06 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: ccmay

They keep the server room cool. They get SOME access to outside air, but not enough, so they also pull air in from the rest of the office. They create negative pressure, which means much of the warm air gets pulled back in rather than progressing out any ventilation.


35 posted on 09/13/2011 12:56:31 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
The amount of cooling you would get is dependent on the wet bulb as it indicates how much moisture the air can absorb before it saturates. Getting the relative humidity can allow you to figure it out as well.

Having said that, evaporative coolers work well in relative humidity ranges of 20%. I doubt it's that dry. I wonder if you are getting any close to the required outside air.

Where on the east coast are you and what are you thinking of using for your evaporative cooling system?

36 posted on 09/13/2011 1:40:53 PM PDT by Boiler Plate ("Why be difficult, when with just a little more work, you can be impossible" Mom)
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To: dangus

http://hpac.com/


37 posted on 09/13/2011 8:58:43 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
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