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Obama Presidential Eligibility - An Introductory Primer
http://people.mags.net/tonchen/birthers.htm ^ | 06/05/2009 | Stephen Tonchen

Posted on 06/19/2009 5:16:14 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan

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To: Plummz

Apparently so. Do provide details with links for me to review and I will gladly educate myself on the subject.

No sarcasm intended or implied.


141 posted on 06/22/2009 6:56:03 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan
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To: BuckeyeTexan

Wassamadda, buckey, didn’t notice that I framed the post as a question? LOL ... tossed that rock into the pack and look which one is yelping!


142 posted on 06/22/2009 6:56:05 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

I know exactly what you’re doing. You didn’t toss anything into the pack to see who would yelp. You targeted me with the express purpose of getting a response so you could attack me further. Like I said, you’re making this personal for no reason.

Put on your big girl panties.

Yes, I know it was posed as a question. I can read English.


143 posted on 06/22/2009 6:59:18 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan
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To: Non-Sequitur

Still trying to conflate native born and natural born? Having fun yet this evening, skippy? By your own admission, you haunt these birther threads as an amusement.


144 posted on 06/22/2009 7:00:29 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: BuckeyeTexan

You poor paranoid thing, I didn’t even ping you since I was using a sentence as example for Cicero to consider. I didn’t apply your name to the sentence, either, since I didn’t want to embarrass you. ... But if you insist ...


145 posted on 06/22/2009 7:03:09 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

Grow up. Stop being passive aggressive. You’re not embarassing me, you’re embarassing yourself. This is unproductive.

If you want to have a discussion about the merits of the primer, I’ll have that discussion with you. If you want to attack me because I disagree with you about the author’s intentions, then we’re done here.


146 posted on 06/22/2009 7:08:48 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan
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To: BuckeyeTexan

Pitiful, I didn’t attack you. But that was a nice try ...


147 posted on 06/22/2009 7:13:43 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: El Gato; LucyT

When the critera used to be 10 and 5 years, Ann Dunham would not have been old enough to automatically pass along her US citizenship to her son.

This has been well-documented all over the place.


148 posted on 06/22/2009 7:56:53 PM PDT by Polarik
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To: Polarik
When the critera used to be 10 and 5 years, Ann Dunham would not have been old enough to automatically pass along her US citizenship to her son.

Of course she wasn't old enough. But that only applies IF she gave birth outside the country, and IF she really was married to BHO Sr. The "not old enough", which is really "not resident in the US for long enough as a quasi adult", only applies if the birth is outside the US. That's all I was saying.

But the whole section of the law speaks to "citizenship", not "natural born citizenship, anyway. She could have been "old enough", and he be a citizen at birth, and still not be natural born. But if the opposite is true, and BO was born outside the country, then he wasn't a citizen at all, let alone natural born.

He's hiding something, and given what he's already revealed, it's hard to imagine it could be anything besides birth outside the US. Why bother to marry BHO Sr if she was going to put Frank Marshal, Malcom X, or anyone else the BC? She might not have been legally married, and known it, I suppose, but that would hardly be all that "embarrassing" given everything else already admitted by the campaign and BHO's spokeswienies. Besides it would give him something to be more like his major constituencies. It would be a source of additional "street cred" .

149 posted on 06/22/2009 8:57:55 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Non-Sequitur
So does that mean that "a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" (8 U.S.C. § 1401, paragraph (a)) is not a natural born citizen, either?

It doesn't make them so, nor does it make them not. It only makes them a citizen, although it's also redundant, since it's the same criteria as the 14th amendment's

150 posted on 06/22/2009 9:01:50 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: BuckeyeTexan
It is true that Hawaii wouldn't have knowingly and intentionally issued a birth certificate for Obama if they didn't believe that he was born there. To suggest otherwise is to imply that Hawaii knowingly and intentionally issued fraudulent birth certificates

Not true, they can and apparently did, issue birth certificates for people born outside the state, and the country. BUT, those certificates would indicate the correct place of birth, or at least what the state was told was the actual place of birth.

The author's point that the state could have been lied to, and that this would be led credence by a long form (vault) birth certificate that shows a home birth, with the only signatures being that of Stanley Ann and her mother or father, or just her parents, since her signature would not have been absolutely required. She would not have even needed to be in the Islands.

151 posted on 06/22/2009 9:10:06 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Then who can? If Congress is tasked by the Constitution with rules for naturalization then don't they first have to define who doesn't need to be naturalized?

No, they only define who *can be* naturalized. You're assuming that "not naturalized", and "natural born" are the same thing. They may not be.

But we've gone around on that question before, and we'll not stop the circling here either.

152 posted on 06/22/2009 9:16:28 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: BuckeyeTexan
As I said earlier: Lots of things are unconstitutional

Yes they are, but none quite so clearly as the prohibition against those who are not "natural born" being eligible for the office of President. We just seem to have lost the fox with regards to the meaning of "natural born". Just as we have with the meaning of "interstate commerce". Although in the latter case, the lose was more a deliberate theft, whereas the "natural born citizen" definition has been lost more though disuse through not needing to use it.

Until now that is.

153 posted on 06/22/2009 9:41:32 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

You know, every time I read that, I wonder why BHO wasn't struck down by lightening as he he said it, since he clearly had no intent to preserve, protect or defend the Constitution of the United States. Unless he thought it meant the physical piece of paper.

154 posted on 06/22/2009 9:45:14 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: BuckeyeTexan
One doesn’t have to believe that there are three or more classes of citizenship to also believe that the matter is unsettled. Read the related portions of the document.

I have. And you're incorrect, you do have to believe that there are 3 or more classes of citizenship. The Constitution identifies two classes, natural born and naturalized. If you accept that then clearly if you aren't one then you're the other. If Obama was born in Hawaii then he's clearly not naturalized.

155 posted on 06/23/2009 4:13:23 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: MHGinTN
Still trying to conflate native born and natural born?

Always.

Having fun yet this evening, skippy? By your own admission, you haunt these birther threads as an amusement.

Well unlike many of you, Buckeye Texan takes a rational approach to his arguments. But a civil debate is just as enjoyable as dealing with your more rabid compatriots.

156 posted on 06/23/2009 4:18:21 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: El Gato
It doesn't make them so, nor does it make them not. It only makes them a citizen, although it's also redundant, since it's the same criteria as the 14th amendment's

So like Schrödinger's cat they could simultaneously be borth? So what part of the law tips them one way or the other?

157 posted on 06/23/2009 4:20:56 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: El Gato
No, they only define who *can be* naturalized. You're assuming that "not naturalized", and "natural born" are the same thing. They may not be.

Constitutionally they must be. If your not naturalized then your natural born. Those are the only two forms of citizenship the Constitution outlines.

But we've gone around on that question before, and we'll not stop the circling here either.

True.

158 posted on 06/23/2009 6:02:18 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur
Of course you're (notice how that contraction is formed, NS) incorrect in your assertions since one of the cases you cited has the term native born used to describe 'a' form of citizenship. That's why I keep tweaking your effort to conflate native born and natural born.

You're welcome (notice the way that contraction is formed, NS).

159 posted on 06/23/2009 8:51:50 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN

My errors in contractions aside, both cases use the terms ‘native-born citizen’ and ‘citizen at birth’ as synonyms of ‘natural born citizen’. Which is obvious since the Constitution identifies only two forms of citizenship - natural born and naturalized.


160 posted on 06/23/2009 9:05:52 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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