Too peaceful is the protest in Tibet?

. . . but did you ever ask yourself such a question that to whom is this freedom belong?

It belongs to you, and is an inalienable right given to you by God.

Sounds like an apology for Chinese occupation, nut.

I'm sure the boot that China has on the neck of Tibet is gentle and benevolent and they only want the good for the people there.

Many blessings in your serfdom.

You sees to misunderstand me.
What I am trying to present is a question. that is: will the Tibetan get the so-called right if they are put under the spiritual lead of Dalai Lama? I just want the critics
in the NYT can think before talk, to make our if they are really doing good to the Tibetans.
I am a Chinese, I hope there will more freedom across this country, no matter for the Tibetans, or for the Han People.
If you ponder on this matter of Tibet you will not post such article.
BTW, I can not post in the NYT, so Acording to your reponse on the quake of Sichuan, I chose to post my comments here, hope this does not make trouble.

There is no serfdom now for immediately after 1950 we declared to abolish it forever. Serfdom just exist under the rule of the others but not the current government.

Perhaps you don't realize there are many types of serfdom and Tibetans are in fact still serfs because you donot control your own destiny.

China controls the destiny of Tibet.

Whatever Tibet wishes to become it may only do what China allows.

That is sefdom.

Tibet is a perfect example of why we should never have a unilateral disarming. Tibet once had a very powerful military. When one of their rules that followed the path of Buddha, they laid down their arms unilaterally. China, then seized the land and the rest is history.

Freedom is not freedom. To most freedom means not to be ruled by others, not the western individual freedom model. I also find it hard to believe that life under authoritarian Lama rule would be less pleasant than life under genocidal Chinese rule.

—”Don't you think it's weird that in the process of “free Tibet” movement only several monks and oversea persons stand up, instead of masses of Tibetans?”

You could say this about the Chinese as well, no? As for the Han we will be killing most of them eventually anyway.

Well I agree that partly you are right, we hope improvements on this situation.
If one day it is the Tibetans ask for more freedom but not the monks, then we will give it more serious considerations, for the government must put the interest of his people on the first place.
If the author chose to support the masses of tibetans we are happy to receive criticisms, but please think more before grant honors to Dalai Lama, if there is one persons supporting this man, it will be the once-priority-owned monks but not the people in Tibet.
Is that clear? I hope American truly understand who is Dalai Lama, and the future of Tibet is ruled by him and some of the monks that support him. If you have the chance go to Tibet and ask the local people who does they support and how is their life now. I bet they may give a variouslist, but definitely the name of Dalai will not be included.

Well if you pull the history so far, I think that all the nations need reflections. Remember the history of local indians or Maoris? not to mention the past wreckage we just want to do better for the present, aren’t we?

I had been in Tibet for several days, which is a large place for the Tibetans to prosper on and we have no intentions of killing anyway. I think that you may need to read more before posting words of “genocidal”.

Why do you, as a Chinese person, have any word to say about Tibet?

If the people of Tibet donot want the Dalai Lama then shouldn't they reject him? Today the Chinese reject the Dalai.

Your arguments are hollow. The Tibetans have no rights (nor do the Chinese). The iron fist of communist totalitarins rule both Tibet anf China.

You live at their pleasure.

Yes... When you are a nation that has neither no means of protection nor the will to fight against an aggressor, you are always the loser.

YOu have alot of nerve coming on this site of all places and spewing your PRC propaganda. Tibet does not belong to China. China THINKS it does, but the Tibetan people were once free and will one day be so again. As far as your assertion that the Han migration/GENOCIDE can be compared to American settlers, don’t make me laugh - part of the reason the Tibetans rioted was because of the economic disparity between the poor Tibetans and the Han.

Then why the author as an American has the words to say about Tibet?

Sorry. Lama left Tibet 5o years ago, I do not know why the Tibetans need to reject him ‘cause he has been refused. If the Tibetans want him back they may stand up to welcome him, which is not the case.

Yes, Ok. If neither we nor Tibetans have no right to judge themself, then who is on the list? American? French?

The forced relocation of Han into Tibet and other regions of western and northern China is being done to replace and eliminate the existing populations. This is not a new tactic, it has been used by autocrats and conquerors for thousands of years, that doesn't make it any less distasteful.

According to you all the people is once free there is even no any government or nations exist. I am not here to argue but to tell the truth, but ended up with receiving arrogance.

And, the protest is not waged by the Tibetans but a small part of monks, are there anything not clear on this matter? I have gone to Tibet and I know what’s happening that days.

I am just a common student and I also have no favor on the government, as I stated before, I see, I think and then I remark with no bias. (That is also why I left for Hong Kong to study and plan to reside there to get more freedom and a more open atmosphere on speech.)

America is not occupying Tibet, therefore we are more objective than the Chinese. That would be you.

If the Tibetans stood up to demand a return of the Dalai they would be shot by the Chinese.

Americans and Frenchmen VOTE for their government. They have rights under a constitution. They have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. They have the right to bear arms and to petition their government for grievances.

Neither Chinese nor Tibetans have any of these rights. They are serfs/slaves to a cadre of evil men. As such they are not free men.

Freedom is expensive. Freedom can only be purchased w/ blood.

Until China raises the "capital" to purchase freedom they will remain a poverty stricken nation. Regardless of the trade balance.

Arrogance is coming into a forum and trying to convince people that Tibet belongs to China and that the unrest is only being caused by a couple of monks and a handful of protesters. But the funniest is your assertion that the Tibetan people don’t want the Dali Lama back. WHAT A LAUGH RIOT. The people love and revere the Dali Lama, so save your lies. Hey, by the way, what did China do with the Penchan Lama!?! Why has no one seen him for like 18 years?!? Go back to school, you have a lot of learning to do.

Finally I truly know a typical American. What an ardent man yet with so vacant voices. When you are told by the American media how does China look like but not from the eyes of you own because of lack in knowledge on Mandarin Chinese, do you really think you are right?

Firstly I must state that I am not here to criticize anything or anybody, to tell my idea is the only purpose of this post.

China is heading for more improvements. I have been watching NYT for more than 5 year when I am just a little boy, and know what is really happening in America.

Could you tell me when Bush decided to occupy Iraq which caused thousand of Americans dead and even more Iraqis in pain, where is your right for petition? As a stark contrast, when China government plan to build a noxious chemical plant in Xiameng(a Chinese coastal city) the citizens stood up for protests which finally make the government abolish this plan.

Where is the right for Americans under constitution when there is a cyclone at Katrina which causes great wreckage but you troop are sent there just to crack down the people suffering? While in this Sichuan quake our army are sent there to save people?

As for freedom of speech? In china there are a lot of media that could tell the truth, for example the newspaper of southern-city, do you have even a small piece idea of this newspaper? No. Try to talk about the freedom of speech in China after finished reading some articles in this newspaper. And, take our university as an example, in her BBS system there is a board where everyday thousands of articles were posted to talk about the politics and the government. Do you know it? I am sorry no. Maybe we don’t perform the best, but we are in the process of doing better.

Freedom of religion? It is who that told you in China we have no freedom of religion? Do not make me laugh. Around me all the people are free to believe in any religions, one of my friends is a Christian, although the amount of persons who believe in religion is small, due to the Chinese special history of religion. Recently in 2007 September - A new Roman Catholic bishop of Beijing is consecrated - the first for over 50 years to have the tacit approval of the Pope. Does it tell you anything?

AND, China has a graduated-students’ population of over 100,000,000, such as me, who can access almost all the western media like NYT and BBC, who can read such a lot of western thoughts on democracy and freedom, who can think after such a reading. Are they all blind to withstand such a government if it is as you depicted to block speech and religion?

If you know Mandarin Chinese you can access Tianya Forum in China to see what is really happening in China, instead of just listening to the education of media of your own.

Americans and Frenchmen VOTE for their government. They have rights under a constitution. They have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. They have the right to bear arms and to petition their government for grievances.

About what you said, just look at this article. Man, just look. think before post. you know, I am no fool because I study in one of 9 best universities in China and then will pursue the master of philosophy degree in Computer Science in the University of Hong Kong this September, with full scholarship assistance. Due to my interest in politic and economy, in the leisure time I have read quite a lot of world-renowned books on these area including those from the western. If you want to contend, please consult the fact first. This is the article. maybe it is too long, but please pay attention to finish reading, let me give you something more that the western media can provide. it is from here: http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-274-1-1.html I am a Tibetan Chinese, but I feel shamed by some of my compatriots! My hometown is in Aba, where there are Tibetan, Qiangzhu, Han mainly. I am a Tibetan. If you have doubt about my identity, please check my ID card No. ：51322219*****0473. I hope some of Tibetan people can make an inspection for your own behavior after reading this article. To chase the freedom is so fascinating, to chase the sky belonging to ourselves is so beautiful. But what I can not understand is why we need to chase freedom, while we have already got the freedom? Now your behavior, has already made our brotherhood, our government feel ashamed. You’re right, you need your own history and we need our belief to extend the great spirit of King Gesharer. When I was in Seda Buddhism Institute, I’ve read the full story of King Geshar, who is the proud of our Tibetan, even whole China. King Geshar is a hero. He made us live a good life, but can Dalai Lama do it? I hereby need to talk to you about which one is doing better to make us live good life, King Geshar or Communist Party. I don’t want to talk about Dalai, he makes me feel ashamed, and he can not compare with Communist Party. Seruo, Zhuoda, Dunzhu, you guys come to this forum very often, but what you said shows that you’ve forgotten what your parents taught you – somebody helped you, you need to appreciate and repay their kindness. Remember the story Grandpa Geden used to tell us? If you forget, I can remind you: Tibetan knows how to appreciate Grandpa said our Tibetans have been really liberated just after liberation. We were no longer suffered from our lords, we were no longer slaves, no longer their long-term workers. Government gave us yak and sheep, the grassland, even the lord’s house has been distributed to us. Afterwards, PLA’s road-building team arrived. They built the road to Lhasa, the government really manage to succeed to do it. Grandpa said, it was so difficult to build the road. The soldiers were using dynamite to explode the mountain, but on that day, 17 soldiers died, because the stones fallen buried them under the road. The soldiers delivered us the salt, the tea, but they never wanted repay. They only said, these were offered by the government. So folks carried the Qinke (high land barley) leaves to feed the truck, because they thought the truck were tired after carrying so much goods. Afterwards, the soldiers left even two trucks for us, and they didn’t want anything. Then we heard the road to Lhasa had been finished, and we really could take bus to go to Lhasa. Then, there was drought, the yak and sheep were so slim, the snow was heavy in winter, so many yak and sheep died. We were desperate, but at this time, Government said the trucks from Chengdu had began to deliver goods to us. We didn’t believe at first, but lots of truck delivered foods, quilts, and everything we needed within several days. Our parent generation kneed down on the grassland, to thank government, Communist Party, Chairman MAO, but not to the god, not to Dalai. We Tibetans thank our motherland, thank the support from our people. Then, Chairman JIANG became the leader and he has done lots of things for us. TO: THE MOBSTER: Our generation has seen this: I want to ask you: Seruo, who installed your electrical light in your home? Who installed your “wok cover” (satellite receiver)? Who built the hospital in our village? Where the doctors come from? Who spent money to build the road? Who laid the telephone line for us? Who paid our sisters and brothers’ study cost? Who gave us allowance while we were suffering natural disaster? The landslide flooded your relative’s house, who built him a new one? You have some accomplishment, you went oversea to study, but do you remember Professor ZHANG from Sichuan University? He financially supported you to study oversea, but what are you doing? What you have done to our country? How your family, your benefactors will see you? Last year, the railway has been built. In fact, we are poor or not? You know, we are not poor, but Dalia is still exploiting us. His lackey randomly got a “Living Buddha” name, then sitting in the temple, touch the heads of folks. Then our people donate lots of money to the temple. Communist Party has helped us so much, but we don’t even pay the basic tax. They think we are poor, so free our tax. We gave all our money to the temple, then asked the government to give us allowance food. Did government say anything? They only said: we respect minority religious belief. You have suffered crackdown? Who killed you? Nobody did that. You kind of people deserve to be spurned by all the people. TO SO CALLED INTERNATIONAL FRIENDS: I know, you and my brotherhood are friends, and they recommend you to come to this forum. And this is written to you: We are in China, and our minority is enjoying the same treatment, or even better treatment than other nationality. You heard that Tibetans are abused by China, and the government crackdown the riots without any humanity, whole Tibetan people, even all Tibetans begin the riots and request the independence. It is fake to say that Chinese government didn’t construct and develop Tibet. I will tell you that what happened in my hometown. Don’t believe them anymore! What I am saying could be more reliable than what they say. Chinese government has been constructing Tibet since reformation. The real factors are as follows: 1. Tibet is one of the districts where the tax has been cancelled very early. 2. There is no so called “no freedom” in Tibet. We have been planned as Autonomous District. We Tibetans are managing our own Tibet, and enjoying the help from our country. Chinese government always promotes “Harmony” and they spend a lot of national reserved fund to financially support our university students, support Tibet construction, develop the education, light-industry, etc. 3. Chinese government has built the highest QINGZHANG Railway to develop Tibet, to have better economic development of Tibet. Chinese government has helped Tibetan people with full energy even while there are natural disasters. 4. Other nationalities of China are not looking down on Tibetans. They regard us as brothers, and we are enjoying same treatment as other Chinese civilians. There is no such a thing as discrimination. 5. Tibetans thank communist party and our motherland. There is no such a thing as “all Tibetans are requesting uprising for independence”. In my hometown, 70% of population is Tibetans, but there are only above mentioned individuals who have their politics desires. The ratio is 1/4000, and these people have been called as gangsters by us. You are civilized people, free-chasing people, so I guess you will not help those gangsters who even their own nationality are spurning. And hope you will not be blinded by them. 6. Tibetans are not poor, our average income are higher than lots of other places in China. In my hometown, averagely, every family has 40 yak, 100 sheep. Every year, the income we get from selling yak, sheep, wool, medicines are over 100,000 RMB. Average personal income is around 20,000RMB. But the folks in my hometown admire religious culture, and the money has been collected by the Dalai Clique by using folks’ religious belief in a half-force method, to be used as their riot fund. Chinese government respect minority religious belief and help Tibetans. 7. Tibetans have not been beaten down during this riot. Only those mobsters have been arrested by military polices, and police following international custom. To arrest those mobsters who attack police are usual, I guess it’s same in your country. If the policeman has been beaten, I think you will use force as well, right? However, our policemen had to be very patient, didn’t fire bullets to them. All the Chinese people including Tibetans request government to use the force to crackdown this riot. But government is still using persuading policy. I believe my brother will not deny the above mentioned point. You can ask them to explain the above. TO DALAI: What you have done, Dalai? You took away our money from selling yak and sheep, and now you are trying to take away our happiness. The riots happened this year! You, Dalai said, we need freedom, our Tibetan people need freedom, so we need independence. Dalai, I will call direct this name now. I believe you can see, for, your lackeys will let you know what I’ve said. I don’t need to say first whether communist party is right or wrong, but I’ll analyze the results if Tibet really gets independence. 1. After the independence, Tibet will face economic disaster. You know, Tibet folks’ main income is from yak, sheep, medicine and other stockbreeding business. If the independence is realized, our motherland become enemy country, and economic connection will be stopped. In Tibet province and other area, there are around 3 million population. What we will use to be the economic resources? Our yak and sheep can not be sold to Chengdu, Lanzhou anymore. We can depend on India? India is a big farm country, and with Chinese force now, China can request India to cut any relationship with Tibet (including economy and military). Then, Tibet becomes next Mongolia, surrounded by two big countries, no export exit, then you can not get your godfather’s USA’s direct economic and military support. The main income of Tibet will die, and people will become slaves again. (You don’t care the people, since you only care about yourself.) 2. Military There is no heavy industry in Tibet, so we can not build military products by own. If there is no economic income, what you will use to exchange weapons? USA may give you some weapons, but that will be too little. How your lackeys can use a simple gun to fight against tanks, plane of PLA? Without your own army, how you can be independent? India will help you? Last time when you went there, what Indian Prime Minister talked to you? He doesn’t support your exile government. India doesn’t want to be enemy of China, then will you go? Pakistan just beside Tibet is China’s alliance, don’t even think about to have good relationship with them. Other countries are all alliances of Russia, so, do you think Russia will give up China to stand with you? You are dreaming! 3. People’s Support Don’t think too highly yourself. You think all Tibetans are under your leadership? You are wrong! We Tibetans are people as well, means we know who are treating us well, and who are exploiting us. You think we will stand together with you? These riots can show you a fact: In Lhasa, there are less than 1 thousand; in whole Tibetan area, there are less than 10,000. I make you a full account, 10,000, means 1/300 is under your leadership. If you cancel the several hundred RMB you paid to those people per day, I guess there will be only 1000 people means 1/3000 with you. No need army, our Tibetans can use spit to drown all of your lackeys. You have no people’s support, and you have no shame to say your will be next MAO Zhedong? You’re insulting him. You think there are still folks donating money to you in the temple, so all Tibetans are backing you up? Believing you? Wrong! Old generation might do that, but next time your so called living Buddha is cheating money again, check how many young people will give you money? I could say basically no more! 4. Beliefs: Now, your power begins to be weaker and weaker, did you notice that? How many young people are still believing you? How many people are still trusting you? Your behaviors have been regarded as a joke. You are acting as monkey of Tibetans? My living Buddha, you are performing in the world, how much they pay you for that? You shamed us. Since you are ashamed, how can we still trust you? Do you know we can not trust a monkey? TO MY BROTHERS Seruo, Zhuoda, Dunzhu, I tell you, you have violated Chinese Law, violated bottom line of our Chinese morality. Last time, government forgave you, but we will not forgive you. If you will still behave like this, I will wait for you in Chengdu. No need others to act, I will kill you! Your parents called me, said that you haven’t contacted home for more than half a year. They worried about you, but I didn’t tell them you have become dogs of Dalai. I am afraid your parents will kill you. Maybe you could be important talent of China, but doing this, you will die. Your brother, me, I am not a weak person. I can see clearly who is the real one deserves to be the leader of Tibetan and bring us to be rich and make Chinese to stand at top of the world. You’ve changed your mobile, so I can not contact you. But I know you always come to this forum, so I hope you will not do bad things anymore. Please go to turn yourself to police, don’t do bad behavior anymore. Folks from hometown, your parents, your friend will not forgive you. You made Tibetans lost face already. Now when I read about Tibetans riot, I want to cry. I want to argue that Tibetans are also nationality in China. But who will listen? I only can tell all my friends, we, Tibetans are not as you imagined; we are not mobsters. My brother, please don’t do this anymore.

I study in one of 9 best universities in China and then will pursue the master of philosophy degree in Computer Science

So, what can you tell us about the Chinese military's cyber assaults on US networks?

I am just a common student and I also have no favor on the government, as I stated before, I see, I think and then I remark with no bias. (That is also why I left for Hong Kong to study and plan to reside there to get more freedom and a more open atmosphere on speech.)

It seems you want less for your countrymen than you want for yourself.

Tianammen Square?

Falun Gong?

Dalai Lama?

Censorship of Google?

China is a Maoist/Stalinist dictarorship that supresses information it doesn't want its citizens to see.

The US Congress VOTED to approve the war in Iraq. The response to Katrina is primarily a local responsibility, the federal gov. is there for support only.

The Christian church in China has been and still is supressed, or why else would a Catholic Bishop be in prison?

You are correct that China has come a long way, but so long as it remains essentially a Stalinist society its people will not be free. Economic development in the absense of social liberty will stunt Chinese growth.

I thank you for your opinions and your time, however, your apologies for the current regime carry little weight w/ me. Until there is an active opposition party in China it will continue to be a totalitarian oligarchy. I don't see, nor does anyone else, the development of such a party.

By the way, congratulations on your command of the English language, its not bad.

As a student I just want to seek success of myself.
By the way, Hong Kong is a part of China so I am not leaving my motherland(I have the chance of going to America, which I gave up).
By the way, departure prepares for a better return.

Listen. to. me. carefully. I am getting married to an ehtnic Tibetan. I know exactly what your country has done to Tibet. I know everything. Save. your. lies.

As a student I just want to seek success of myself.

That makes your opinion of what's best for Tibet suspect. Your academic freedom depends on the Chinese government's perception of you as being loyal to the government.

Many years have past since the Tiananmen Square protest, which is ineed the fault of the current government.
Falun Gong? Do you know what kind of religion is the Falun Gong? In the long history of Europe there have been many people appealing to resist the repression on science by the old and stenchful religions, some of them was killed but they are commemorated as heros, like Giordano Bruno. That’s because those religions in the middle ages is evil and do nothing but the evil to the people.
So you could search for the results of Falun Gong. a government must be crazy to admit such a religion when it claims that their tenets can totally substitute the medicament, that there is no need to go hospital when the believers come to ill, that entices its believers to sprinkle petrol on their body and set themselves to fire, that drive many believers to mad including some around me.

Censorship of Google? I admit that there exist censorship in China, for example I am unable to access my persol blog if not by adopting another way to unblock the Great Firewall of the government. This indeed need improvement, But I can access all the google sevices normally, including all the main media in the America.

The Congress does not represent the common Ameicans, after most of them act against it. I got it from NYT, you can find more than a thousand of articles criticizing this war.
The response to Katrina is primarily a local responsibility? The federal military is there for support only? You know when Chinese army go to the quake area they bear the tools to save, while the federal military beared guns and drove tanks to SUPPORT.
Could give me more details on the Catholic Bishop be in prison? I have no idea of it.

thanks for your praise. And I restate it: I am here to contend for the truth instead of critizing anything.
Very thanks for your reply, which benifits me, too.

How much time has her left Tibet?
We are happy that if you two can return to Tibet to see what is really happening. We are more than happy to welcome you. You could talk to the locals to see if I am lieing.

I came from a poor rural country, my parents are both farmer whose only knowledge is how to plough the land. It it the education system that helps me to come out of the city and study in the city.
I keep on learning english and found NYT a great site with both nice writing skills and profound and far-reaching understanding of specific case, that’s why I frequently log on it.
Chinese government? I have not even a small piece with it. I hate its immense corruption and low-efficiency hisrarchy system, it needs improvements in almost anyway, and it also is improving, which delights me a little.

I came from a poor rural country, my parents are both farmer whose only knowledge is how to plough the land. It it the education system that helps me to come out of the city and study in the city. I keep on learning english and found NYT a great site with both nice writing skills and profound and far-reaching understanding of specific case, that’s why I frequently log on it.
Chinese government? I have not even a small piece with it. I hate its immense corruption and low-efficiency hisrarchy system, it needs improvements in almost anyway, and it also is improving, which delights me a little.

Isn't the Chines government paying for your education so you can have your life and studies in the cities?

We have free education which last for 9year to junior school. Then my parents are able to support my study in the senior school ‘cause it is not very expensive. The cost of universities is very huge so I signed a contract with the bank of China to get a loan with no interest. The government has been very active and efficient to support the education of the mass, this also applies to the domestical enterprises. A lot of them set up scholarship foundation in universities to encourage study. Most of this scholarships are enough to support your daily life. That’s my financial system in university, loan from the bank, scholarship, and wages from intern work.

A. Chinese government? I have not even a small piece with it. I hate its immense corruption and low-efficiency hisrarchy system, it needs improvements in almost anyway

B. The government has been very active and efficient to support the education of the mass, this also applies to the domestical enterprises.

You appear to be quite willing to subject your parents to A so that you can continue to enjoy B.

I don’t understand the meaning of this sentence.
Ok I quit, with failures. it’s hard to argue in a foreign forum with a different ideology. I quit.
I hope I would not need return.

Ok I quit, with failures. it’s hard to argue in a foreign forum with a different ideology. I quit.

I don't understand wanting your own people to just roll over for a government you know is repressive and corrupt.

This is the last posts in this thread, to answer the question:

Although there are corruptions and repressions in the government due to lack in powerful supervisions, it is being ameliorated from both the efforts from the government itself and the other common people, including over 100,000,000 well-educated college students who are destinied to dominate this country’s development, they are not blind. I believe in our education system, which cultivates such a lot of persons like me who can think independently, with no bias on the government or on the people, who hope to do good for the interest of our country, our people and help to improve the government.

China is so large with such a huge population of up to 1.4billion, with 0.9billion of them farmers. The steps of heading for democracy can not be too fast, it needs time but won’t be done in one night. What we need firstly is the stability of economic life and dominion of our own land, which can not be looted by the others. As long as we preserve stability and domonion of ourself instead of leting our destiny to the foreign, we will eventually make a better China, better and better, as time goes on.

Tibet is our domestic problems, we could handle it ourself, we will achieve a better result by discussions between both sides of Chinese who living in Tibet and the other place of China.

Please believe in us, and think more before post.
By the way, NYT also does not always tell the truth, it must help the government. Believe it or not, I have read a lot of articles in NYT about China, some of them even lack the basic knowledge of China and some fabricate on purpose, while some tend to mislead the people by equivocating.

Try to read more, but not solely your own media, ‘cause in some extent, to what extent I have no idea, media is controlled by the government.

China is so large with such a huge population of up to 1.4billion, with 0.9billion of them farmers. The steps of heading for democracy can not be too fast, it needs time but won’t be done in one night. What we need firstly is the stability of economic life and dominion of our own land, which can not be looted by the others. As long as we preserve stability and domonion of ourself instead of leting our destiny to the foreign, we will eventually make a better China, better and better, as time goes on.

Socialism and big centralized bureaucracy has never been a road to economic stability. It has been an abject failure every time it was tried, and an educated elite ruling class won't fix it. You seem to believe that it is more important for China to be a big country than it is for it to be a free country.

Excuse my jumping in here, but both of you have valid viewpoints, as formed from your individual experience and knowledge. It should surprise neither of you that there is a disparity in that knowledge, as history is written mainly by the winners of any contest, whereas the loser's position is often lost or modified in its retelling.

I believe that you will find that the main reason societies wither and die (whether by conquest and assimilation, or by insularity and isolation) is because of what the US tried to provide against in 1776 -- over-reaching and unaccountable government. It seems we all only speak what we want to hear, and spend little time seeing the truths before us.

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

The Declaration of Independence of the founders of the United States details the manner in which all societies fall, and they created a Constitution -- not for the People, but to place restrictions on government and the legal actions it can take. That we, the People, have failed to follow the precepts laid down in both of those documents is why America will fall, and why all governments that try to rule from the top down will also fail. It is not democracy that enables and ennobles a society, but rather Freedom -- Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Did they get it all right, from the start? No, but they tried, and did provide the legal framework to effect necessary changes.

What we need firstly is the stability of economic life and dominion of our own land

Then what the heck are you guys doing in Zimbabwe?

What we need firstly is the stability of economic life and dominion of our own land

Then what the heck are you guys doing in Zimbabwe?

all governments that try to rule from the top down will also fail.

That appears to me to be exactly what the Chinese are trying to do. The concept of "consent of the governed" is not there.

Who started the trouble in Tibet?

Chinese Regime Implicated in Staging Violence in Lhasa—UPDATED

Agents Provocateur? ["Tibetan supporter" who attacked torch bearer may be Chinese agent]

China salaries overseas Chinese for anti-Tibetan protests (rent-a-mob: $350 per head)

‘Beijing orchestrating Tibet riots’

Attack on an American volunteer by anti-Carrefour mob in Zhuzhou, Hunan
"The cab driver was shouting at him to get out. Then they started hitting the car.
The crowd was shouting "kill him! kill the Frenchman.""

Let's get one thing straight. China has never had real sovereign control of Tibet until 1950 when Mao's Red Army invaded and within fifteen years over 1.5 million Tibetans had been killed.

History of Tibet

As to my personal feelings I wish the U.S. had never stopped supporting Tibetans with guns and butter.

CIA’s Secret War in Tibet

There is no serfdom now for immediately after 1950 we declared to abolish it forever. Serfdom just exist under the rule of the others but not the current government.

That's funny. I personally know a few Tibetan lamas who escaped Tibet in the '50s and none of them say there was any serfdom imposed by the government in Lhasa. They all call the Chinese barbarians for what they did too. Of the approximately 200,000 Tibetans that have escaped Tibet since 1959 I have never heard of a single one that disagrees with that.

I also find it hard to believe that life under authoritarian Lama rule would be less pleasant than life under genocidal Chinese rule.

You should talk to some Tibetans. You would find they don't know what you're talking about.

And, the protest is not waged by the Tibetans but a small part of monks, ...

Your arrogance is blinding you. Look at this video and tell me; do monks outnumber ordinary Tibetans?

Tibet break news

When you do see monks in the video most of them are not participating in the violence. It's the ordinary Tibetan that is angry.

As for freedom of speech? In china there are a lot of media that could tell the truth, ...

Except when your government blacks out a broadcast that they don't want you to hear.

CNN World : Tibet : Chinas media blackout

fact can overthrow any prejudge.

and fact is that China is properous under the rule of a big centrialized bureaurcracy..