Srebrenica Massacre unreported for weeks... Why?

January 24, 2009 | J P Maher

[Ravnagora]

Atrocity stories are a classic and effective way to motivate hatred against an enemy you are out to destroy. Poland attacked Germany on 1 September 1939, right? The British press in 1914 had "Huns" raping every maiden in Belgium. The "Ulster Massacre of 1641" was a hoax by London to foment hatred of the Irish; it was intended to "justify" all-out war for centuries on the Irish, citing numbers of victims that were astronomically in excess of the number of Protestants in Ireland. And then there's that big hit 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" which "proved" that Jews were out to exterminate Gentiles.

WHEN DID THE "PRESSTITUTES" (thanks for that to Ilana Mercer) FIRST START USING THE PHRASE “The Srebrenica Massacre [of x-thousands of Muslim men and boys]”?

When did the “Srebrenica Massacre” story break?

No reports from 10 July 1995 and the immediately ensuing days and weeks ever refer to “the massacre of Muslim men and boys”. The numbers ranged from 2,000 to 8,000 and 10,000...

From Iran, no mention of a massacre having taken place:

“Iranian foreign minister [Velayati], in a message to the UN secretary-general, has asked for immediate action to PREVENT a massacre of the defenceless people of Srebrenica by the Serb rebels. SOURCE: Vision of the Islamic Republic of Iran Network 1, Tehran, in Persian 0930 gmt 11 Jul 95; Source: Voice of the Islamic Republic of Iran Network 1, Tehran, in Persian 0930 gmt 11 Jul 95; SECTION: Part 4 Middle East; THE MIDDLE EAST; IRAN; ME/2353/MED. Message to UN secretary-general. Text of report by Iranian TV on 11th July.

From the front, no mention of a massacre having taken place:

Reports from the front in mid-July 1995, e.g. Chris Hedges in the New York Times of 18 July 1995, reported that thousands of armed Muslim fighters “slipped” through Serb lines under fire and arriving safe in Tuzla, held by Muslim forces (and a US garrison).

The lag time between as yet unbaptized “Srebrenica Massacre” on 10-11 July 1995 and the first press reports is over a month. David Rohde, who spearheaded the story that became known as “the Srebrenica Massacre”, did not himself use any such phrase or make such a claim. In his story in the Guardian of 19 August 1995 we find “…I saw what appeared to be a decomposing human leg protruding from freshly turned dirt…” He repeated Albright’s fabrication about a massacre in a soccer stadium in a nearby town, [where] human faeces, blood, and other evidence indicated large numbers of people were CONFINED, and PERHAPS shot.” Also: “United Nations official estimate that 4,000 to 6,000 Muslim men are still MISSING in the wake of the Srebrenica and Zepa ASSAULTS.”

Zbigniew Brzezinski:

The news would have still been hot when Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote an Op-Ed piece in “The New Republic” of 7 August 1995, under the headline: AFTER SREBRENICA. Zbig Brzezinski says only that something awful “MIGHT” happen.

Nowhere does Brzezinski mention a “Srebrenica massacre”. That catch phrase does not appear until weeks after the alleged event. It will not be found in the press until the American-sponsored Croatian “Storm” (Oluja) on Serb Krajina in August-September 1995.

(In)Consistency: Madeleine Korbel Albright, whose “Albright Group” now has the franchise for the cell phone business in Kosovo, brought the earliest allegation of a POSSIBLE Serb massacre of Muslims on August 11, 1995. But the chief United States delegate to the United Nations told a closed session of the Security Council only that 2,000 to 2,700 MISSING "Bosnians" (i.e. Muslims; Serbs and Croats, like "Diocletian" are Bosnians, too) from the Srebrenica enclave MIGHT HAVE BEEN shot by the Bosnian Serbs.– She did not use the formulation “Srebrenica massacre.”

So, the numbers in Albright’s document and subsequent tellings and re-tellings are not consistent.

LEXIS-NEXIS searches now permit us to track down and date press reports on whatever story. Readers can see for themselves what results turn up in searches dated between 10 July 1995 and the beginning of October 1995, using parameters such as

(Srebrenica AND massacre) (Srebrenica AND missing) Srebrenica AND 7000 OR 8000) (7000-8000 men and boys) …

(Koranically, once boys attain the age of fifteen, they are “warriors” for Islam.) Remember boy bombers in Israel.

Did the Srebrenica Massacre” happen? Draw your own conclusions.

Why the absence of reports of a "Srebrenica Massacre"? Simple. There was nothing to report. That is, until the US needed a lie to smokescreen Europe's biggst ethnic cleansing since World War II. This was "Storm", i.e. Honest Bill Clinton's US (MPRI) attack of August-September 1995 on Krajina's native population, Serbs.

This was Europe's biggest ethnic cleansing since World War II. It took a BIG Lie to conceal it, plus a bunch of presstitutes and a voyeuristic public that's hooked on Cop TV shows, Judge Judy et al., Jerry Springer, Maurie Povich and RAPE headlines.

From http://www.srebrenica-report.com/numbers.htm

Mike Wallace and a score of other Free Pess newshawks went went to Srebrenica in 1995. He's not one to miss a spectacular story. He didn't file any.

REMEMBER THE MAINE-REMEMBER TONKIN GULF-REMEMBER JENIN

J P Maher, Professor Emeritus

_____________________

[nothingnew]

Do you have a linkable source for this?

Thanks

FMCDH(BITS)

[Polybius]

The Soviet's Katyn Forest massacre of April 3, 1940 was not discovered until April, 1943.

The proof of the extent of the Nazi Holocaust was not discovered until Auschwitz was captured by the Soviets on January 27, 1945, Buchenwald captured by the Americans on April 11, 1945 and Bergen-Belsen was captured by the British on April 15, 1945.

When you completely control a sector the battlefield, you completely control the information that leaves that sector of the battlefield.

That's not Rocket Science although you seem to have great difficulty in understanding such a simple military fact.

Katyn Forest massacre exhumation, 1943.

Srebrenica exhumation

TUZLA, Bosnia-Herzegovina — Forensic experts say they have exhumed the remains of 881 victims of the 1995 Srebrenica massacre from a mass grave. Team head Murat Hurtic said Wednesday it held 30 complete 851 partial bodies. The remains were first buried elsewhere and moved by bulldozer later to hide the crime. The team also exhumed 24 complete and 238 incomplete bodies from a smaller grave nearby — the 12th in the area.

[maher]

Poly, you are right – about something, I’m sure, but on matters military you are no Clausewitz, though I admit I didn’t know Clausewitz myself. Are claiming that Churchill and FDR knew nothing about Katyn early on?. That’s novel. Are you denying Winston and Franklin kept the lid on Soviet guilt for Katyn to preserve the wartime alliance with Stalin? Are you saying there were swarms of reporters with press cards from TASS and Beria and Stalin running free like Ernie Pyle around the Eastern Front, covering the USSR-German rape of Poland? In Srebrenica didn’t General Mladic appear on TV in mid-July 1995? I think so. A lot. I was watching on satellite TV. Were you watching CNN or the equally creative cartoon channel?

[maher]

Poly: I see you are not claiming that Poland between German and Soviet lines in 1940 was full of reporters, but that the area was totally fenced off by the combatants. I agree with that. You say the Katyn massacre was DISCOVERED by the German in 1943. I’ll bet the Abwehr (military intelligence) knew all about it. It saved them the work of killing Poles. BUT the Germans REVEALED it first in 1943.
Are you saying that there was a news black-out in eastern Bosnia in July? If so, your scenario is sheer fiction.

Do you know how to use the Lexis-Nexis search engine? Between 9 July 1995 and 31 July 1995, it shows 1000 articles on Srebrenica. Busloads and truckloads of people were evacuated. Although the claim is endlessly repeated that men and boys were separated, you’ll see in the photos plenty of young men in the open trucks along with women and children. Don’t you remember? The UN supplied the fuel for the buses. No mention anywhere of a massacre having happened in Srebrenica.

Ancient Polybius is dead. The new Polybius, he is not dead. He just sleepeth.

[maher]

Poly’s enthymeme — a premise or two seems to be missing here: Control of the battlefield = absence of reporters.

There’s another difficulty: finding Muslim men and boys to separate from the women, children and old, to truck and bus away to be beaten and shot, buried and re-buried. (The only source of fuel was the UN.)

“... When we entered the city, “There wasn’t a single Muslim soldier there. We only found the civilian population and Dutch soldiers comprising the UN units. ...” R. Karadzic

Source:
BalkanInsight.com - Karadzic: From Dissident Poet to Most Wanted

balkaninsight.com/en/main/analysis/11971/?tpl=299&ST1=Text&ST_T1=Article&ST_AS1=1&

[Ravnagora]

Here’s a letter sent to the Economist by Stella Jatras that goes toward your point, Professor. Ms. Jatras doesn’t expect that her letter will actually be published, but it should be. Ravnagora

______

24 January 2009

With regard to Carla del Ponte’s Madame Prosecutor as co-authored with Chuck Sudetic, I take exception to Chuck Sudetic’s statement in his book, Blood and Vengeance, which described the killing of some 7,500 Bosnian Muslims at Srebrenica in 1999. There is enough evidence to refute Mr. Sudetic’s claim.

Gregory R. Copley, editor of Defense and Foreign Affairs, and a group which included a former UN official, intelligence experts and journalists, released a statement in 2003 that challenged the alleged casualty figures as “vastly inflated and unsupported by evidence.”

Who can forget the picture of then US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright as she frantically waved the CIA satellite photo over her head of the plowed field that was the alleged mass grave of the Muslin men? “Proof positive!” she claimed, of those who had been slaughtered and whose bodies were lying there only waiting to be exhumed.

Journalists from all over the world went to Bosnia to look for bodies. Crews from CNN, CBS, BBC, France II, TG1 (Italy), Dutch Television and elsewhere arrived in August 1996: but they found very little. Some crews did not bother at all to find the soccer field from the satellite photo, because the journalists had already come to believe that there was no mass grave there anyway.

Tim Butcher of The Daily Telegraph, (UK) of 24 July 1995, wrote, “After five days of interviews the United Nations chief investigators into alleged human rights abuses during the fall of Srebrenica had not found any firsthand witnesses of atrocities.”

Before US intervention, Yugoslavia was a multi-ethnic, multi-religious and multi-cultural sovereign nation. In his “The Islamic Declaration, former Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic wrote, “There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic faith political institutions....The Islamic movement must and can take place as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough, not only to destroy the non-Islamic one, but to build up a new Islamic one.”

Furthermore, “As early as 1992, Izetbegovic outlined a very precise and uncompromising strategic political objective for the Sarajevo regime: To get the West to defeat the Serbs and establish a Muslim-dominated state for him.” (Offensive in the Balkans, author Yossef Bodansky).

The legacy of the deceased Izetbegovic has come true. Today, Bosnia has become his “Muslim-dominated state for him.”

Stella L. Jatras

Madame Prosecutor - The Economist: http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12970818

____________________

[Polybius]

Poly, you are right – about something, I’m sure, but on matters military you are no Clausewitz, though I admit I didn’t know Clausewitz myself.

Yeah, whatever.

Are claiming that Churchill and FDR knew nothing about Katyn early on?. That’s novel.

This article claims that, because, in the articles own words, "THE PRESSTITUTES" (the Western news media) had a one month long delay in reporting the massacre, then the massacre must be a fiction just like the claim that " Poland attacked Germany on 1 September 1939".

WTF does "The lag time between as yet unbaptized “Srebrenica Massacre” on 10-11 July 1995 and the first press reports is over a month" have to do with the what Churchill or FDR "knew" or, vastly more accurately, "suspected" about "Katyn early on"?

But, just for educational purposes let's examine your issue of what Churchill and FDR "knew" about Katyn. Since you bring up Clausewitz, you certainly know that Clausewitz stressed the concept of the "Fog of War" which states that, in war, the line of distinction between what the commander "knows" or "suspects" or has been "told" or has been "confirmed" about what is going on behind enemy lines is as perfectly clear as the morning fog.

What did Churchill and FDR "know" about Katyn early on?

They "KNEW" squat.

They may have "suspected" all sorts of things but they "KNEW" squat.

Churchill and FDR might have "suspected the Soviets killed them", they might have "been told the Soviets killed them", they might have "believed the Soviets killed them" but all they actually "knew" was that thousands of Polish prisoners were unaccounted for.

Even the Polish Government in exile did not "know" the fate of Polish prisoners and those Polish prisoners totaled a quarter of a million POW's and 1.5 million deportees in Soviet prison camps. When the Sikorski-Mayski Agreement was signed between the Polish Government in exile and the Soviet Union on July 30th, 1941 to form common cause in the war against Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union agreed to release their Polish POW's but brushed off Polish inquiries about the absence of specific Polish officers not accounted for by claiming that the Poles in question had been released from POW camps in Manchuria but that the Soviet Union had "lost track of them" after their release.

That was what was "KNOW" about the missing Poles "early on".

What was "KNOWN" was exactly as much as is "KNOWN" today about American MIA's that some Americans today claim died in combat, some Americans today claim were captured and killed and some Americans today claim are still being held prisoners to this day.

Since, in your naive and uneducated view of History, Clausewitz's Fog of War does not exist, tell us, maher, what really happened to all those American MIA's. You surely must "KNOW".

Only after the graves were discovered by the Germans in April 1943 and produced physical evidence did it become "known" for certain that those Poles were dead and not wandering through Siberia on their way back to Poland.

Are you denying Winston and Franklin kept the lid on Soviet guilt for Katyn to preserve the wartime alliance with Stalin?

On 15 April 1943 during a conversation with Polish General Sikorski, Churchill stated, "Alas, the German revelations are probably true. The Bolsheviks can be very cruel."

On 24 April 1943 Churchill assured the Soviets: "We shall certainly oppose vigorously any 'investigation' by the International Red Cross or any other body in any territory under German authority. Such investigation would be a fraud and its conclusions reached by terrorism."

That's called Realpolitik. Churchill "suspected" Soviet guilt but did nothing to anger the Soviets.

What does a SUSPICION of Soviet guilt by Churchill in 1943 have to do with what Churchill KNEW for certain about Katyn?

What does a SUSPICION of the presence of WMD's inside Iraq by George W. Bush on the day the Iraq War was launched have to do with what George W. Bush KNEW for certain about WMD's inside Iraq by George W. Bush on the day the Iraq War was launched?

You do not "KNOW" for certain about the truth of the physical evidence until somebody digs it up. You do not "KNOW" for certain about WHO did WHAT until you find the evidence or the evidence to provided to you.

The West did not "KNOW" for certain about the truth of Katyn until 13 April 1990 when the USSR formally expressed "profound regret" and admitted Soviet secret police responsibility for the Katyn Massacre.

Are you saying there were swarms of reporters with press cards from TASS and Beria and Stalin running free like Ernie Pyle around the Eastern Front, covering the USSR-German rape of Poland?

What does this absurd non sequitur have to do with what happened at Katyn or what happened at Srebrenica and their subsequent discoveries and documentation?

Are you making the absurd claim that, because Western reporters were present in Bosnia and given guided tours by Serbs, that they could freely go where they pleased and dig where they pleased and produce a documentry entitled "CNN Takes Miami CSI to Bosnia"? What the Hell is your point with this non sequitur?

In Srebrenica didn’t General Mladic appear on TV in mid-July 1995? I think so. A lot. I was watching on satellite TV. Were you watching CNN or the equally creative cartoon channel?

What does this absurd non sequitur have to do with what Srebrenica massacre or with the price of tea in China?

Is it your ridiculous claim that, because a Dog & Pony Show is staged that nothing could possibly be going on that is out of the ordinary?

You have never heard of Theresienstadt?

Are you so naive about History that you actually believe that the absence of a press report means that something never happened? Are you so naive about History that you actually believe that press reports about the Red Cross finding Jews very well treated at Theresienstadt with even musical instruments for orchestras being provided for them means that the Holocaust never happened?

Your reliance upon TV reports and TV appearances as a conclusive primary source for exculpatory evidence for a massacre in a war zone is beyond ridiculous and beyond naive.

Either that or you know exactly what you are doing and are doing the age-old job of the apologist.

[Polybius]

You say the Katyn massacre was DISCOVERED by the German in 1943. I’ll bet the Abwehr (military intelligence) knew all about it.

It was independently discovered by Germans in 1943.

It had been previously discovered by Polish railroad workers in 1942 and the discovery was reported to the Polish Government in exile but the report was given little credence just like the early reports of the Holocaust were given little credence.

The Germans may very well have had information about the massacre before and may have been searching all over their occupied sector for proof but it takes time to be lucky enough to discover the right place to dig.

Look how long it took to discover the body of Callie Anthony, buried only a quarter mile from her home, when, for months, the news media had been obsessed with the case.

It saved them the work of killing Poles. BUT the Germans REVEALED it first in 1943.

What is the meaning of "it" in that sentence?

Suspicion?

In the Callie Anthony case, almost everybody suspected that Callie Anthony had been killed. But, until the body was found, nobody could PROVE it. Until the body was found, nobody could KNOW it. Until the body was found, even the grandparents were trying to find her alive.

Once what was "revealed" was THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF HER DEAD BODY, "suspicion" turns to "fact". Then and only then do you actually "KNOW" and not merely "suspect" or "highly suspect" or "betcha a million dollars" that Callie Anthony was dead.

Are you saying that there was a news black-out in eastern Bosnia in July? If so, your scenario is sheer fiction.

Are you saying there was a news black-out in regards to Callie Anthony case?

< fallacy>If Callie Anthony was, indeed, dead and buried only a quarter mile from her house, the news media would surely have "KNOWN" it and reported that fact back in July of 2008 since they were all over that neighborhood like pitbulls on a pork chop. < /fallacy>

You seem to be confusing TV with the Real World.

You seem to be confusing the news media with the Real World.

Truly, I fail to understand how you can write with a straight face that, if it did not appear on your TV Nightly News, it never happened.

The INDIRECT evidence of the Srebrenica massacre began to be accumulated right after the massacre as U.S. reconnaissance photos documented the sudden appearance of large areas of overturned earth around the town as a result of the digging and refilling of the mass graves.

Allied intelligence then acquired evidence about how, from August 1995 to November 1995, the bodies for the primary mass graves were exhumed by the Serbs from the primary mass grave sites and dispersed to secondary mass grave sites.

Once the Serbs no longer had military control over these mass grave sites, that intelligence was used to find the secondary grave sites and, sure enough, THOUSANDS OF BODDIES WERE DUG UP INCLUDING THE BODIES OF 2000 VICTIMS OF THE SREBRENICA MASSACRE WHICH HAVE NOW BEEN IDENTIFIED.

That is not longer "suspicion" or "belief" or "unconfirmed intelligence". That is PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF THE MASSACRE OF 2,000 PEOPLE FROM SREBRENICA.

What TV reporters said or did not say as they were given Dog & Pony Shows by the Serbs is totally irrelevant to the historical facts documented by the exhumation AND POSITIVE DNA IDENTIFICATION of 2,000 of the Srebrenica dead.

Bridges of bone and blood: identifying victims in Bosnia --- More than 7000 people have now been identified, of these more than 2000 were victims of the Srebrenica massacres ... The ICMP began using genetic fingerprinting techniques in 1999, as a last step in the process of identification. But, according to Deputy Director of Forensic Sciences Adnan Rizvic, "now we're using DNA fingerprinting like a first step" - a "forensic revolution" which has dramatically increased the rate and number of identifications. .... The more samples there are to compare against, the greater the statistical probability that an apparent match is genuine. In fact ICMP's own standard is that the match must be at least 99.95 percent certain before the name of the individual can be passed on to a pathologist, who then checks all the evidence before making a final official identification.

The PHYSICAL AND SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE composed of the DEAD BODIES OF POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED VICTIMS OF THE SREBRENICA MASSACRE is right there and, to counter it, you present the fact that CNN showed up at Srebrenica and was given a Dog & Pony Show by the Serbs just like the Red Cross was given a Dog & Pony Show by the Nazis at Theresienstadt?

Just because it was not on TV in July, 2008, it meant that Callie Anthony was not dead and buried one quarter mile from her home at the time?

Just because the news of the Red Cross visit to Theresienstadt reported very well-treated Jews that even had their own orchestras means that those very same Jews were not gassed shortly after the smiling Nazis waved "Good-bye" to the Red Cross and the news media after the Dog & Pony Show?

Come on. Grow up and and turn off your TV set! TV News is not the Real World. You cannot use the absence from your TV News or the New York Times of something as proof of ANYTHING in the Real World.

You won't find any mention of the Ukrainian famines in the New York Times but that does not mean that they did not happen even though the New York Times reporter in the USSR won a Pulitzer Prize for his Soviet Union reporting but yet mentioned nothing about the Ukranian Famine at the time.

Walter Duranty: Stalin's Man in Moscow

The PROVEN historical facts are these:

The Srebrenica Massacre victims were shot, buried, dug up and transported to hide the evidence, reburied, TRACKED DOWN BY ALLIED INTELLIGENCE, dug up, FOUND BY THE THOUSANDS, and then 2,000 of those bodies were POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED to an ICMP standard of at least a 99.95 percent certain DNA match.

THAT is the Real World.

THAT is documented History.

"I didn't see it on TV on CNN so it didn't happen", is just being naive in the extreme.

*******

"The moving of corpses from their original burial places to 'secondary sites' was a unique feature of the Srebrenica massacres. It was an attempt by the Bosnian Serbs who carried out the killings to hide the evidence. In some cases bodies were dug up and reburied several times, becoming increasingly dismembered and 'commingled'. This has made identifying remains particularly difficult.

The graves were dug, filled, and emptied using large mechanical diggers. Although these tore and crushed the remains, compounding the problem of identification, their tracks and loading buckets also left characteristic imprints in the soil, which can be revealed by forensic archaeologists. This information can not only link together various primary and secondary sites, it can also contribute to a legal argument that there was organized intent to commit the crime."

*********

[maher]

Poly.
“Just the place for a Snark!” the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.

“Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true.”

Please write some more. It’s great stuff.

[Polybius]

Poly. “Just the place for a Snark!” the Bellman cried" ... Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice: What I tell you three times is true.” .......... Please write some more. It’s great stuff. ...... maher

TRANSLATION: "When presented with the physical evidence of 2,000 Srebrenica Massacre victims whose mass grave sites have been tracked down by Allied intelligence, whose bodies have been exhumed and whose bodies have been positively identified by DNA and by follow up forensic pathological correlation, all I can offer to defend my previously claimed but now indefensible position that the Srebrenica Massacre never occurred is to play the fool, post a silly poem and make a snide remark. ..... maher"

You lost the debate, maher.

Thanks for playing.

Goodbye.

Bridges of bone and blood: identifying victims in Bosnia --- More than 7000 people have now been identified, of these more than 2000 were victims of the Srebrenica massacres ... The ICMP began using genetic fingerprinting techniques in 1999, as a last step in the process of identification. But, according to Deputy Director of Forensic Sciences Adnan Rizvic, "now we're using DNA fingerprinting like a first step" - a "forensic revolution" which has dramatically increased the rate and number of identifications. .... The more samples there are to compare against, the greater the statistical probability that an apparent match is genuine. In fact ICMP's own standard is that the match must be at least 99.95 percent certain before the name of the individual can be passed on to a pathologist, who then checks all the evidence before making a final official identification.

[maher]

Thank you Poly. By gawd, I had forgotten all about how bulldozers leave “characteristic” tracks. But don’t tease us, hiding your sources on the operation’s logistcs, schedule, budget, how many rigs, how many men, fuel supply, dates of the big switcheroo and how the wily Serbs kept all this from the prying eyes of predator drones, NSA feeds, satellites, U-2s and doughty crime reporters... You’re right; it’s easy to hide a massacre and burial and re-burial of thousands of bodies in a battle area from hundreds of newshawks backed up with satellite and U-2 pics, just like one 3-year old tyke in the bushes off a road. —In April 1994 near Sarajevo I talked with a Canadian reporter, one Montgomery. He told me openly he and his colleagues exercise “self-censorship”. He told me why. Can you guess? What journalists have you talked with?

audiatur altera pars:

http://www.emperors-clothes.com/analysis/falsely.htm
http://emperors-clothes.com/sreb/mem.htm
www.srebrenica-report.com/politics.htm - 106k
http://www.serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/
http://www.srebrenica-report.com/numbers.htm
http://www.google.com/search?q=srebrenica+srpska+mreza&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B2GGIC_enUS213US233
http://real-srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/

[maher]

“You lost the debate, maher” —ipse dixit Polybius. Old Bellman, your “translation” is too marvelous for words, and it is as apt as your nom de guerre. Polybius (q.v.) of yore is eternally known for his obsequiousness to sponsors. Latter Day Polybius is notable for never indicating sources. Quoting without attribution is technically plagiarism. However, we’ll overlook it this time. —Freepers, if you want to know WHOSE “evidence” Poly offers as fact, It is, “Balkan Witness”:

http://www.glypx.com/BalkanWitness/Articles-Bosnia.htm

BW is de rigueur for all who want to keep up with the apologetics of Islamist Bosnia-Herzegovina & Narco-Mafia statelet Kosovo.

[Bokababe]

Seems to me that forensics have come a very long way between 1939 and 1993.

Perhaps in the old days, one did not know with certainty what happened until long after it was over in 1939.

But by 1995, we had satellites circling the globe and would know earth while it was being turned, if bodies were being buried. Why is it that twenty years later, with all those supposed "satellite photos" Madelyn Albright waived around at the time, they are still "discovering bodies" if it was that cut and dried? Doesn't take 14 years to follow a satellite photo's diagram for evidence.

The whole thing makes no sense to me, other than as a propaganda ploy, leaked piece by piece to bleed the last drop of blood out of a badly written pro-Muslim melodrama.

[maher]

I dun you wrong, Poly. You only plagiarize some of the time. You DO provide links intermittently, albeit to unsubstantiated allegation and Islamist PR.

Lewis Carroll’s work you mis-characterize with the term “nonsense” in its present acceptation. Anachronism (not good in a historian.) In Dodgson’s England there was “sense literature” and “nonsense literature” for children. “Sense” meant ‘direction’, as it does in the Romance languages. “Sense literature” accordingly set the child in the DIRECTION of Christian Salvation. “Nonsense literature” was kiddy lit for non-religious enjoyment. Lewis Carroll is more properly termed a SATIRIST, like George Orwell or Jonathan Swift. (from H.-J. Hoehling’s unpublished dissertation, with the author’s permission)

For “nonsense” according to today’s vocabulary, your jihadist postings qualify.

[Polybius]

Seems to me that forensics have come a very long way between 1939 and 1993.

Yes, it has. That is why, as noted in the link, by obtaining blood samples from relatives, once you have a dead body to analyze, you can narrow down the DNA ID to a certainty of over 99.9% and final confirmation can be obtained by having the forensic pathologist compare the characteristics of the body with the known characteristics of the person identified by DNA analysis.

But by 1995, we had satellites circling the globe and would know earth while it was being turned, if bodies were being buried. Why is it that twenty years later, with all those supposed "satellite photos" Madelyn Albright waived around at the time, they are still "discovering bodies" if it was that cut and dried?

Did you read the links that were posted?

The mass graves of the bodies initially buried at Srebrenica were immediately identified by U.S. reconnaissance photos. The bodies were later dug up by the Serbs and transferred to other dumping grounds outside of Srebrenica. Those were the "secondary mass grave sites".

How much do you know about the capabilities of "satellites circling the globe"?

Do you believe that U.S. "satellites circling the globe" are taking photos of every square yard of territory on the Planet Earth every day?

No, they are not.

There are a limited number of satellites and a limited number of reconnaissance planes and military decisions have to be made in regards to what real estate constitutes an "area of interest" to be photographed and the rest of the Planet Earth.

Years ago, as I walked down the pier where the U.S. Navy warship I was stationed on was berthed, I daily passed by a ballistic missile submarine that had the doors to its launching tubes opened. They were opened so that Soviet spy satellites could see that they were empty in accordance with the SALT Treaties that the U.S. had signed with the USSR.

That U.S. Naval installation was an "area of interest" for Soviet spy satellites. There must be thousands of photos of my old Datsun 210 in Soviet intelligence archives since I parked a couple of hundred yards away from the piers.

Do you think that Russian spy satellites also keep a daily track of what goes on at Uncle Fred's dairy farm in Sauk County, Wisconsin?

No, they don't.

There is only so much reconnaissance capability to go around and "areas of interest" must chosen.

U.S. Naval Base: Photograph daily.

Srebrenica during the war: Photograh daily.

Uncle Fred's dairy farm in Sauk County, Wisconsin: Forget it.

Uncle Milo's dairy farm in Bosnia many miles away from Srebrenica: Forget it.

If you bury 20,000 bodies in the woods on Uncle Fred's dairy farm in Sauk County, Wisconsin, the Russian spy satellites will never know about it because Uncle Fred's dairy farm in Sauk County, Wisconsin was never photographed by the Russians in the last few years and, even if it was, the forest obscures the graves.

How would the Russians ever know about what was buried at Uncle Fred's dairy farm in Sauk County, Wisconsin?

By relying on HUMINT (HUMan INTelligence) if they ever gained control of Wisconsin.

That is what the Real World is like. Knowing what is happening on every square yard of the Planet is possible only on Star Trek science fiction fantasy.

So, yes, years after the massacre, as HUMINT becomes available or sheer luck finds a grave (as in the Callie Anthony grave) more bodies are discovered.

"Satellites circling the globe" did not find Callie Anthony's grave a quarter mile from her house, did they?

Doesn't take 14 years to follow a satellite photo's diagram for evidence. The whole thing makes no sense to me,

Of course it doesn't make sense. You had the Star Trek science fiction capabilities of an imagined 24th Century confused with the realities of Real World military reconnaissance capabilities of the late 20th Century.

Uncle Milo's farm was never photographed photographed daily by U.S. satellites or scanned by Scotty from the USS Enterprise on the orders of Captain Kirk or Mr. Spock. So, there was no satellite photo evidence to follow to the secondary mass grave until HUMINT or luck led Allied forces to them.

The whole thing makes no sense to me, ....

I hope it makes sense to you now.

[Polybius]

Here is an article that discusses the issue of "coverage area" (area of interest) in regards to the capabilities of a spy satellite:

Also, practical resolution is limited by the sensors and tradeoffs with coverage area. If the smallest resolution element is 5 cm, a detector array 10,000 elements wide would record a stripe only 500 m wide. That would be acceptable for a high-value target, but not for routine imaging.

In order words, when getting high quality images for intelligence, the area that the satellite can cover is only 500 meters (546 yards) wide. That means that the operators must make a choice where to aim the satellite's mirror and the area covered will only be approximately four and a half football fields wide, including end-zones.

Imagine how many football fields wide all of Bosnia is.

You can't image ALL of Bosnia in high resolution by satellite. You have to pick certain very defined areas and you have to pick them during each orbit of the satellite. As a matter of fact, the satellite capabilities are so limited that the "primary mass graves" (the graves where the victims were first buried before they were dug up and reburied in "secondary graves" away from Srebrenica) were obtained by U.S. spy planes flying over Srebrenica and not by satellites.

After the bodies are moved away from Srebrenica to be reburied out in the boonies, where do aim your cameras at? Where would you aim your cameras to photograph where Jimmy Hoffa ended up. As of two months ago, where would you have aimed your cameras to photograph where Callie Anthony was buried?

If you increase the area of coverage, the resolution drops and the images are worthless for intelligence although they can be used for mapping.

You can see the difference in these images on "Google Earth". The "high value targets" in the big cities have high resolution images where, if you live in Miami Beach or Manhattan, you can see your blue car parked in the street. At "low value targets" such as small towns, no high resolution images are available and, in those images, the entire small town is nothing but a blur.

[maher]

Srebrenica & Gorazde, plus Katyn false analogies.
Poly takes a gargantuan leap of faith to imagine that farmers in Byelorussia knew nothing or could know nothing of the passage of 15,000 POWS marching under the guns of thousands of NKVD troops to the places of execution, the digging and covering of graves, the shooting in their fields over many days. Keeping with Poly’s classicizing proclivities, it’s an Olympian stretch to believe that the locals didn’t tell German soldiers well before the Reich made its timely announcement of a “discovery”.

General Michael Rose inspected Gorazde, which was headline stuff in April 1994, while I was in eastern Bosnia. He caustically remarked that the “DO SOMETHING” and “mass slaughter” headlines were fake, that the damage to Gorazde could be cleaned up with a few brooms. — Doubt my veracity? It’s wise always to keep a grain or two of salt handy in exchanges like this. Check out GOOGLE on GORAZDE + ROSE + BROOM. -—I’ll bet the world has largely forgotten about this “humanitarian catastrophe”.

In the Hearstian “reporting” a florid image was those heroic ham radio operators (old Bosnian Muslim institution) hunkered down, calling out their desperate SOSs. —BTW, where are they now? Maybe Poly could interview them for us. What a great read it would be. Might get a Pulitzer Prize, like the hoaxters Gutman and Rohde.

MISSING AND UNACCOUNTED FOR — KATYN. As Polish officers were released, they reported to General Anders. But there was a massive number missing and unaccounted for. This could have only one explanation: mass executions. They never showed up again.

MISSING & ACCOUNTED FOR. But Srebrenica’s missing Muslim soldiers DID show up again. They were positively accounted for by the Red Cross, UN and news reporters such as Chris Hedges NYT and plenty of others. Their withdrawal had even been ordered by Izetbegovic on radio en clair. They showed up again, in their thousands, in Muslim-controlled Tuzla (where the US military was in charge). Take this witrh the mandatory granum salis and GOOGLE: SREBRENICA + MISSING + TUZLA.

PS - TUZLA. This city is named with the Turkish word for “salt [mine]”. That’s how it happens to have a big chemical industry. The city was multi-ethnic before the war, before federal Yugoslavia was dismantled under the lead of revanchiste Germany collaborating with Bush 41-Baker-Clinton humanitarian bombers to do the dirty work. German actions in previous wars in the Balkans left an unforunate odor.
I know Christians (Serbs) who were imprisoned or hid behind locked doors in Tuzla. The fathers of the families were chemical engineers. The Christians were released at long last in a prisoner “exchange”, women and girls, separated from their menfolk for Muslim soldiers. One of the fathers told me that he had been tipped off by Muslim and Croat co-workers on his shift that he was on a hit-list of Serbs to be murdered. The Muslim and the Catholic friends drove the Serb Orthodox man out of the city to safety. Along the way they passed bodies of hundreds of machine-gunned and fragged Yugoslav army soldiers, unarmed, in a long column of burning military vehicles, ambushed with RPGs by the Muslim Freedom Fighters. —Was the battlefield so tightly controlled that the world was kept in the dark? Or did the presstitutes keep the reports off page 1? GOOGLE:
TUZLA + ARMY + AMBUSH.

The Yugoslav army garrisons of Tuzla and Sarajevo had negotiated with the Islamic authorities for safe evacuation to Serbia nearby. This was just before the Muslim Bread Q massacre of early May 1992. The Q story was announced the same evening, with no time lag, unlike Srebrenica —by Bush 41, though privately he told his cabinet men and their wives “the Serbs didn’t do it!’. For bloody details GOOGLE: TUZLA + ARMY + AMBUSH.

[Ravnagora]

Do you have a linkable source for this?

I apologize for not seeing this earlier.

No, I don't - the piece was written by the author and passed on to me directly.

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