Posted on 06/25/2008 7:24:15 AM PDT by svcw
I’m asking because I want to know what freepers think the answer is.
If you sincerely want to know my views, read The Problem of Pain. Lewis expresses exactly what I believe, but he does so more powerfully and eloquently than I ever could. If you want to know the views of other Freepers believe, then please ping/ask them. As for me, I’n asking you, as a courtesy, to please not ping me further on this issue. The answer I’m giving you in this post is the very best I have to offer. If it’s not good enough for you, then we’ll just have to leave it at that. I will continue to keep you in my prayers, and wish you all the best.
OK, I understand.
I would say that God created that person knowing that he/she would suffer in this life. We all suffer. It's up to us whether we grow in that suffering or let it make us bitter, angry people. God will help us grow through the storms of life, and if we trust Him, will use that suffering for good.
Don't know if you know who Joni Erikson Tada is, but she is a perfect example of trusting God to make something good come from suffering. She had an accident when she was a teen, and is now a quadraplegic. She begged God to heal her, but He didn't.
Joni chose to grow through her suffering instead of becoming bitter. She placed her trust in God, and has built a huge ministry to help others who are handicapped. She provides camps for handicapped kids, wheelchairs for those who can't afford them, and so forth. She's written books and music. And she's taught many people how to trust God in their own suffering, and how to be compassionate toward others.
God would instead be a madman, like Jigsaw from the Saw movies, if that were true.
Hardly. When Adam and Eve fell, they took all of nature with them. . .they had been given dominion over the earth and screwed it up. Yes, God knew all that would happen before He even created the first thing. But His plan was already in place to provide salvation to us, if we would just receive the gift through faith in Christ. Adam and Eve had a choice, and they blew it big time. We have a choice too.
I know what God has revealed in His word and interpreted/taught me through His Holy Spirit. Yes, I'm learning more every day, and some things I won't understand until I've passed into glory.
OK, I understand.
Well, you disqualified yourself from any serious descussion by admitting to liking contemporary Christian music. If I ever see another guitar strummin ‘contemporary’ sounding geek playing at another mass, I’m going to smash his guitar over his head.
Fair enough!! :o)
Hmm... this thread sounded interesting upon first encounter. However, it seems to be more of a christian coffee clatch than anything else.
I”ve read thru many of the posts... though, not all. There has been a bit of the usual christian attempts of force-feeding the concepts that the so-called “new testament” propagates. That is not something that I am particularly bashing; I do understand that is the nature of the religion. You MUST proselytize the nations... that is, after all, Saul’s(Paul) command to the church.
So, I’ll chime in, as a minority voice. I’m of the original biblical faith, Judaism. So there will be much for you christian folks to fire away at. Let’s start with this, shall we? - First, the NT is rife with inconsistencies and, frankly, lies and fabrications. One would have no need to go beyond the book of Matthew to have numerous reasons to fully reject everything christianity stands on. Matt. 2:23 is a fine example as no such prophecy exists in the Tanakh (that’s the “old testament” for the more JC minded folks in here). JC’s genealogy is inconsistent even with the basics of G-D’s Law. The virgin birth claim (by the way, that’s a concept that is as old as paganism... see Horus, Mithras, Isis, etc. all way out dating christianity), even if it were true, would exclude JC from the throne of David. Royal lineage is passed thru the father. Not to mention that Joseph is the descendant of the cursed king (recorded in Jer.) that G-D said none of his descendants would sit on David’s throne. That, of course, is also recorded in the Matthew genealogy. There are other discrepancies that I’ll save for later.
The “blood only” doctrine regarding atonement, is a christian fabrication- that’s never been a Jewish belief... EVER. It’s not even remotely backed up by Torah. A god-man dying for sins is a foreign concept to Judaism, and therefore “missing the boat” with JC as the mashiach (messiah) is a foolish, and sometimes a very arrogant claim. The messiah isn’t even described in Tanakh as being someone who the whole world had to “believe in” in order to be saved, as it were. There will be no need of “belief” when The Mashiach is here, HaShem (G-D) said in the Tanach that the world will KNOW who he is without question. (something JC certainly did not accomplish when he was alive). You can site Isiah 53 all day, but reading scripture in context does have it’s advantages. (That’s all in reference to Israel, by the way... go study it- ALL of it!) If that concept was practiced, the idea of “The Devil” wouldn’t exist either. Sorry folks, Lucifer is NOT the devil’s name, it was in reference to King Nebuchadnezzar. Go back and read the WHOLE thing again. (The satan in Job, as he’s called, is not the devil. He’s one of HaShem’s agents- nothing is outside of His will or command.) And that dual prophecy deal doesn’t hold any water either. If it does, are we to believe that there were TWO virgin births?? One when the prophecy was made to comfort King Ahaz when faced with destruction, AND then JC’s virgin birth 700 years later?? No. That’s even more psychotic.
Christianity is also NOT a monotheistic religion. Yep, that’s what I said. In Judaism, G-D is EVERYTHING. There is no devil fighting against Him and His creation (dualism). No three-in-one god (polytheism) either. That’s not at all monotheism. That’s pagan. HaShem is all there is. He makes that perfectly clear in Tanakh... ESPECIALLY Torah!! it’s the NT that has a different view. These are all very easily seen within the Tanakh itself. IN PLAIN TEXT, I might add- no twisting them to make things fit a certain belief system or theology, such as one finds within the NUMEROUS denoms of christianity.
We all hear christians spouting off about the Ten Commandments. Yet, few, if any, even observe them in their entirety! The Shabbat? (Sabbath) Not only has the correct day been changed by the church, in most denoms, but the half-hearted approach to “observance” that christians showcase would be grounds for death in the old days!! On one hand we hear how everyone needs to follow the Ten Commandments, and the other, is condemning The Law altogether!! What is the world to make of that? It’s circular lunacy.
But, such is paganism. HaShem warned of its certainty to send us completely off course. That, my friends, is EXACTLY why the The Law is in place. And as HaShem said Himself MANY TIMES, His Law and covenant WITH ISRAEL, will be FOREVER!! Not sadistically erased someday to fool Israel and condemn mankind to eternal damnation. No!! That is an outright lie of the church!!! G-D is not sick and gratuitously evil, I promise you.
Regarding The Torah (Law) again, what christians don’t ever, EVER get either is, the vast majority of The Torah wasn’t even for them... or anyone else, for that matter, to adhere to, that is HaShem’s covenant with Israel alone. So nobody is condemned to hell if they don’t “believe” the right things. That’s christian theology, not G-D’s Truth. Righteous people of ALL nations have a place in the world to come. Notice how Jews do not proselytize as the missionary chistians do?? (which if you think about it, according to christian theology, all missionizing does is make people eligible for hell!! If the people never heard of JC before were “safe”, as it were, giving them the choice to “deny” JC makes them a candidate for the hell scenario... yuck) That’s because it’s not necessary to convert to Judaism to be in HaShem’s favor. So guess what? Many the people that the church and its adherents have lambasted with hell, fire, and brimstone throughout the centuries were bullied, more than anything, for nothing! And people who would have been totally open to G-D otherwise may have ended up empty spiritually because of that. It’s sad, to say the least. But even that behavior is not the fault of individual christians... they’re held sway by the same tormenting belief that they too will burn in flames forever if they don’t “believe” in the christian idea of the messiah.
Well, that’s enough for an opener! I purposely left my descriptions in a skeletal form in order to draw questions and debate. I hope I have not stepped too hard on anyone’s toes! But I also hope there are some of you out there that have more to bring to the table than mere “belief”. I’m just trying to stick with the initial idea of the thread, so I laid a few concepts out, now lets see who bites!! Shalom, Hillel
Thank you for an excellent reply. Me, I’m buddhist, and do not believe in Jesus either.
I try to live a good life, for today.
If I may post a thought here...
While God is all-powerful, He is not therefore all-responsible. If God is responsible for everything, then man is responsible for nothing. Man would be no more than an upright walking scrap of creation.
However, if man is instead capable of reasoning morally and capable of choosing for himself, then he is an entity, a person. In order for man to choose, the option to commit BOTH good and evil must truly be present. Otherwise there would be no such thing as free will.
What if I told you that you may choose between a salad or a gnarly-good bacon cheeseburger? If all I am ever going to let you have is a salad, you really do not have a choice. I am merely giving you the illusion of a choice. Not the same thing.
God created us with a free well. Compulsory love is not the same as love given freely. We are free to choose Him and follow Him. But, because God is not a liar or a cheat, we are also free to choose evil.
Therefore, the evil we see in the world is not a lack of control or some breakdown on the part of God. The evil in the world is the evidence of man’s free will. It is man’s tragic choice to turn his back on God and serve himself and his own desires. If all men did choose good, then there would be no pain, etc. But, while all men are created equal, as we all know, the choices made thereafter have radically different results.
Just my 2 cents’ worth...
I believe that God is, as the creator of all, responsible for all, and that we do have the illusion of freewill.
Upon what do you based your conclusion that free will is an illusion?
If God has revealed to us through His word that we have free will, then He is making a conclusive statement of fact about our will. If that statement of fact (we have free will) is not factually accurate, then God has lied. If God has lied about free will, how then does one decide which statements of God’s are accurate fact and which are lies?
But, more to the point, why not take God at His word that we have free will? Why would it be necessary to make God responsible for my choices? To do so diminishes both my value and God’s integrity unnessecarily.
To me, it is self-evident.
I believe God reveals Himself to each of us differently, and that He has not made that statement to me.
Forgive my persistence, but how is it “self-evident”? In other words, how do you know it is self-evident?
I am trying to understand the rationale behind your statement. If I am being dense, forgive me. I am trying to understand your position.
Thanks. :o)
Because it is something that I believe, but have no way of substantiating. Like how you know your wife loves you, or that there is a God, or as mentioned in the constitution.
My position is that I believe God, being capable of anything, manifests Himself in each human being individually. I believe that it could be one of the reasons we humans believe so strongly in things that cannot be proven to others.
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