It smells like...................victory.
Posted on 02/29/2008 12:49:22 PM PST by Man50D
The following are benefits ALL Americans would realize under The FairTax.
1) Taxes of current tax-payers automatically cut by 30% just due to the fact that the tax base dramatically increases.
2) $500 BILLION dollars, or 1/5 of all tax-related current expenditures would be pumped back into the American economy EACH YEAR. And that is without a SINGLE budget cut! That is easily 4 times the size of ‘the Bush Tax Cuts’ without even cutting ANYTHING.
3) Social Security and Medicare become fully-funded. BANKRUPCY is avoided. The reason is simple – the funding problem is DEMOGRAPHIC and The FairTax completely eliminates DEMOGRAPHICS from the funding of these programs.
4) Criminals actually are made to pay Federal taxes. They eat and drink and buy fancy cars. Let them pay taxes like the rest of us!
5) The cost of retail products and services will see little or no increase, even with the Federal sales tax added. No longer will Corporate Income Taxes, lobbyist costs and vast tax-accounting expenses be embedded in the price of every American product and service. The FairTax will, however, for the most part offset those price decreases. Point is, there will be little overall increase in prices.
6) NO Federal taxes will ever again be withheld from any Americans paycheck. Not personal income tax, FICA, nothing. The average American will take home 20% more money to do with as THEY please.
7) It makes 100% visible ALL Federal taxation. If the Government wants to get more of OUR money, the ONLY way to get it is to increase The FairTax. There is no confusing multiple tax classes where they can hide tax increases.
(Excerpt) Read more at fairtaxwarrior.com ...
Fair Tax ping!
Just get rid of the damn Fed already. The FairTax isn’t the long term answer, but it definatly beats the Marxist approach we have now.
3) Social Security and Medicare become fully-funded. BANKRUPCY is avoided. The reason is simple – the funding problem is DEMOGRAPHIC and The FairTax completely eliminates DEMOGRAPHICS from the funding of these programs.
It might eliminate the demographics of who is paying in when retired people have to pay it too, but the primary problem of SS is that you have a smaller and smaller ratio of workers to retirees each year. The FairTax doesn't change that at all.
5) The cost of retail products and services will see little or no increase, even with the Federal sales tax added. No longer will Corporate Income Taxes, lobbyist costs and vast tax-accounting expenses be embedded in the price of every American product and service. The FairTax will, however, for the most part offset those price decreases. Point is, there will be little overall increase in prices.
6) NO Federal taxes will ever again be withheld from any Americans paycheck. Not personal income tax, FICA, nothing. The average American will take home 20% more money to do with as THEY please.
5 and 6 are mutually exclusive. The majority of the embedded taxes in point 5 which would counteract the tax increase are from taxes paid by the employees. Your income tax and half of the SS tax are counted as part of your employer's embedded tax. In order to eliminate that from the cost of products, the employer would have to not pay it any more by cutting the employees' pay. If that happens, then the employees won't be getting bigger take home amounts on their paychecks.
Again, with your miracles of the FT. You forgot...
27. Nobody will have to pay anything
38. Everyone will have a new car from Boortz
59. There really is a Santa Claus
83. The FairTax has no rules
109. It’s GWB’s fault that we are breathing
122. The Feds will all go to jail under the FT
135. I won’t have to work ever again
288. There are 4500 more miracles, but I’ve hit the limit
Talk to anyone who isn’t selling books, this is a bust.
All of your diatribes about the current code are born of some bitterness about the government, not real reform. Real reform would recognize you will pay about the same tax as before, or you are shifting the burden elsewhere. Where might that be so that group can cheer you on? The poor? Your grandmother? The rich (the 5% already carry 59% of the load). Oh, wait, you are the rich. Now it makes sense.
You’ll have to excuse me from this thread.
I’m alergic to strawmen.
I hope so. Its about time the damn leeches of society start paying something.
#4- it’s not just criminals, but also the black market- those paid in cash for services,etc. That’s one of the best points.
Sorry, but I must object to both these assertions.
First, SS has plenty of other things wrong with it. The return on investment is simply scandalous for instance.
Second, although the Fair Tax does indeed not change the ratio of workers to retirees, it makes it less relevant since the workers are no longer the entire tax base.
This seems a much better point then the other one in your post. What about in Man50D?
And the criminals will only deal with reputable people who will report, collect and pay the use tax on those items.
The underground economy will just disappear.
but the primary problem of SS is that you have a smaller and smaller ratio of workers to retirees each year. The FairTax doesn’t change that at all.
This is true. But what does change is that the fair tax is not only provided by workers. 100% of citizens will still be spending. The fair tax doesn’t claim to make what you pay in taxes change. Just the way it’s collected. The miracle will be that when we straddle corporations with a ZERO tax burden that the companies that left this country to open in tax friendlier countries will start coming home. And not only them, but many many more. We will once again become the most robust economy in the world. Or we can just stay the same and keep borrowing from China. It won’t be to many more years before our national revenues will only be covering the interest on the national debt. Then you can smile about how you defeated the fair tax while you munch on your bowl of rice.
Pretty much. Ill gotten money will still often be spent for cigarettes at 7-11. Ill gotten money will still buy brand new fancy cars from registered car dealers. And so forth. It will be used to buy hamburgers at McDonald's, and to buy fancy meals at fancy restaurants. Some will likely be used to buy stock (more then otherwise, because it won't be taxed).
Criminals by and large do not want to be criminal in every aspect of their life. Presumably they have some part of their finances they want to hide, but for the most part want to be legitimately respectable wealthy people. The difference between normal folks and them is that they are willing to cheat to get there.
If they want a new fancy car they will have to. I don't know of one auto dealership that would cut the fair tax off the price of one of their cars for a drug dealer. If they buy a used car then it is irrelevant, because used items are exempt from the tax anyways. And as far as that goes the income of the drug dealer will be irrelevant too, as will all of our incomes. But don’t think that a criminal won’t ever buy any thing new. He will, we will as always. Now the drug dealer just becomes a local law enforcement problem like he should be now. But yes he will be paying taxes.
Not likely. If anything there will be motivation to increase it (which was your rhetorical point, no doubt). Of coarse income tax invasion will certainly disappear. Thus a lot of former IRS goons will be going after the underground economy, which involves an order of magnitude fewer people, and thus a softer target.
You might do well to get up to speed before assuming that the Fair Tax folks have not already considered and addressed such an obvious issue.
Er, evasion. Freudian slip I suppose.
Where did you get the idea that I wanted it defeated. I would love to see it passed. I'm just not under the illusion that everyone will suddenly become 20-30% richer because of it (5 says the prices net out the same and 6 says I take home my entire current gross = 30% more stuff I can buy). Arguments greatly overstating what will happen just make the FairTax less likely to pass because they are so easy for opponents to knock down.
I'm looking at doing my income taxes next month and requiring a hundred times the CPU power we used to land a man on the moon to figure it out. I would love to set the entire current internal revenue code on fire. My bosses would like it even more because we've had far too many business decisions made based on their tax implications rather than sales and expenses. Make that go away and we can focus on business instead of accounting tricks.
over-the-top ping
Your little diatribe is interesting in its flummery. Here are some people who aren't selling books:
This is an incredibly naive’ view, folks. During the 70s, many US citizens would purchase a Saab or Volvo with European delivery saving the cost of a trip over, drive it around there and return it to the US as a used auto. Hmm. The criminal mind is so far above my imagination here, but don’t you think that a Ferrari with 17 miles on it in Italy (thus becoming “used”) will be a little cheaper without the FT? Sounds like a business venture to me, but then we still have the enforcement boys around, don’t we? Oh, wait...
It is hard to answer such a question without seeming patronizing.
Obviously the burden will shift from income earners to the price of new goods split in some market driven way among all the parties involved in the transaction (store, customer, foreign and/or domestic manufacturing, material, and transportation).
As pointed out by the Fair Tax folks, the latter is a broader base.
If you visit FairTax.org and come up to speed on what the chief promoters are saying, and you might be better able to criticize the proposal.
your tagline is the perfect description of the FT “movement”
Yes and no. There will be more enforcement boys allocated to investigate this sort of thing. There will be none around to investigate income tax. Kind of a related thing, explained by the Fair Tax people, but kind of obvious to objective observers.
“Flummery”? I thought you promised no big words in the new FairTax Code.
You want 7500 other authorities that think this thing is a total boondoggle? Make space.
Besides, you forgot your patriarch, Buffett. He stands to make billions in foregone tax payments, since he still drives his used 1994 Lincoln Continental around Omaha (or wherever he lives in NE). Look...
Authorities all have an axe to grind. You, me, them. Why don’t you poll 7500 IRS agents and ask them what they think? The real reason you want the tax code changed is you are bitter about paying tax. You think that this is going to change that. Bzzzzzzz. Wrong answer, but thanks for playing.
I think it applies far better to the current tax scheme. But I really had post-modern socialists in mind when I came up with it.
BTTT
The FairTax is neither “fair” nor is it enforceable. You cannot stop me from going to Mexico to buy all the same products there cheaper, especially if it is only 100 miles south. Check it at the border? Right. Then, reselling these products as “gently used” gets us right back to zero tax collected. Thanks, gentlemen.
I don’t need to buy Boortz’ book to be informed about the FT, or is that considered part of the FT program?
Im sure criminals will only buy groceries from disreputable people.
This wasn't an attempt to avoid income tax. The fair tax bill specifically provides for anything bought overseas and brought into this country. The buyer will have to pay the fair tax on items like this brought in from overseas. Unless you have a way to smuggle your new car into the country in your suit case you will be paying the tax as you pick it up from customs. And the people in the 70's doing this weren't declaring the cars as used, it was just cheaper at the time to buy the car overseas and bring it back. It still is thanks to our embedded tax system.
Yes this is likely a problem with the plan. And probably not the only one. My current position is that it is still far better then the current plan and other alternatives. For instance, under the current system, there is little to stop the manufacturer from moving the factory across the border.
I don’t need to buy Boortz’ book to be informed about the FT, or is that considered part of the FT program?
I was talking about the web site: FairTax.org. They may have some answers to some your objections there, and it doesn't cost anything to check it out.
Bingo! I'm paying right around 47% of my income in taxes right now. It comes out of my gross salary. The claim that I'm going to get my whole paycheck of $142,000 is total BS. The "fairtaxers" are counting on screwing me out of half of my compensation to "lower prices" while jacking up the price of everything with NRST. The bottom 50% of taxpayers who only pay 4% of the total tax burden won't notice. They already tax home nearly 100% of their paychecks. It's people in my income range that are targeted to be screwed.
The only part of my compensation that my employer pays in form of an embedded tax is the employer's half of the social security contribution. The rest is removed from my gross earnings on each paycheck. Yet another bold faced lie peddled by the "fairtaxers".
What about cigarettes and groceries and what not?
So you are saying that you base your opinion of the fair tax on one billionere and the people that will have to find a new job because of the fair tax. As far as the IRS employees they will be worked into other government jobs. 40% of all Government employees are due to retire over the next 10 years.
Do you have a well documented list of these other "bold face lies" you can point me at?
I wasn’t referring to you in this particular statement. You have the understanding about it pretty well in hand. The first part of my comment was to you, the rest was just trying to get people to understand the direction our economy is headed the way we are going. I understand that our income and taxes will pretty much be the same at first. But I also understand that this system would favor me saving and investing my left over monies without jumping me up into a higher tax brackett.
My oldest son (minimum wage earner) earned $10,300 last year. He paid $110 FIT and $64 SIT. He's thus eligible for the EITC and the "stimulus" check from the feds. He will get a net income via wealth redistribution instead of shouldering any of the tax burden. That applies to most of the minimum wage crowd. I'm sure he will be thrilled to have the burden of $110 FIT lifted off his shoulders in exchange for having everything else jacked up 30%. That monthly wealth redistribution thing known as a "prebate" will be welcome by the minimum wage people who don't pay taxes too.
Cigarettes aren’t smuggles to avoid income tax either. They are smuggled to avoid high state taxes on them that some states charge and others don’t. But they will never be smuggled to avoid the fair tax. The smuggler has to buy them somewhere(in a low state tax state), which will still have to charge the fair tax on them. Cigarette smuggling will stay about the same as it is now, only a fair tax will be paid on them. I don’t know anyone that smuggles groceries.
As soon as anyone comes up with a ‘fair’ tax system right away come the exceptions, etc, and people can still cheat and politicians will still find a way out for themselves, etc. I don’t think any of this gets to the crux of the matter. Let us repeal the sixteenth amendment entirely.
The space is yours:
So you are going to do what other income tax preservationists have failed to do for 2 years? Good luck.
Besides, you forgot your patriarch, Buffett. He stands to make billions in foregone tax payments, since he still drives his used 1994 Lincoln Continental around Omaha (or wherever he lives in NE).
I didn't forget Buffet at all. He simply has nothing to do with the discussion. I havn't heard his opinion about the FT one way or the other.
Why don’t you poll 7500 IRS agents and ask them what they think?
Gee. I wonder what they think.
The real reason you want the tax code changed is you are bitter about paying tax. You think that this is going to change that. Bzzzzzzz. Wrong answer, but thanks for playing.
Wow. Do you know everything? OTOH, the real reason you are playing at all is that you have your hand in the cookie jar as most income tax preservationists do. Which is it? Life insurance salesman? Retirement plan salesman, administrator? CPA? Tax credit investor or salesman?
McCain is building a fence
You missed the number One miracle..
When Hillary or maybe Yomama convert the fair tax into a VAT.. so they can tax the daylights at every stage of everythiung to support the Universal Health Care System.. You know like every other socialist country..
You do know America is becoming MORE socialist every day don;t you.. Academia is graduateing buttloads of new socialists every year.. and have been for decades..
And republicans have beem OBLIVIOUS...
OTOH:
You may be an income tax lover if you:
1. …believe that taxing the creation of wealth is better for the economy than taxing the wealth when it is spent.
2. …believe that returning people’s tax payments to them is welfare.
3. …have no problem with a tax code that is wordier than the Bible.
4. …believe the IRS is a good department and does a good job.
5. …believe that the worst thing you could do is tax the wealth of old geezers who are living off of the sweat of the younger workforce.
6. …love to tell everyone you see that the FairTax was created by Scientologists.
7. …believe that what Bruce Bartlett says is the gospel and that scores of other credentialed economists are only paid shills.
8. …have a habit of going to online chat rooms and posting insults about the “Fairy Taxers.”
9. …think that calculating a tax the same way as the tax it is replacing is dishonest.
10. …think the economy has always been fine under the income tax.
11. …call the FairTax a “cult” because you can’t think of anything else to say.
12. …believe that cutting one tax by 25% and raising another by the same amount is inflationary.
13. …think inflation is caused by high taxes.
14. …think Milton Friedman is an idiot.
15. …have a soft spot in your heart for European style VAT’s.
16. …wrote the ten planks to the Communist Manifesto.
17. …think the prebate is Marxist but not the Communist Manifesto.
18. …sell some sort of tax advantaged product.
19. …claim you clamor for tax reform but have no earthly idea how to do that.
20. ...howl in outrage when the BATF violates the 2nd Amendment but have no concerns when the IRS violates the 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments.
21. ...believe that having the bottom 50% of income earners pay little or nothing to the government has the best chance of limiting that government.
23. ...think that people give to charity just because there is an income tax.
And if they're embedded, this means the criminals ARE paying these taxes today when they buy something.
Negating Point #4.
I had no wish for you to stop working to document a case against the Fair Tax proposal, I was just wondering if you could point me at such documentation. If not, no big deal. Many of us do have other uses for our time.
FR provides a distraction between large rebuilds.
Yes, but maybe you could spend build time writing some unit tests ;-)
Of course I have my hand in the cookie jar. So do you. Are you a book author, a speaker, a black market specialist, a traveler, one of the anointed FT staff members, an aide to Boortz? Which is it?
What if it is none of these? In my case I simply don’t want you to upset the whole apple cart with an idea that many people can see gaping holes in. You have your 75 economists. There are probably 7500 experts that disagree with your folks. This is not your love of the country that is driving you, it is something far deeper. What is it?
Negating part of point #4.
But they won't be. They'll be getting a prebate to offset those taxes. Which, of course, is in addition to any welfare they're getting. Which won't ever be enough.
Expect the following within 6 months of passing the the Fair Tax: "Why do the rich need a prebate? Gosh, maybe we should means test and give more to the poor."
It smells like...................victory.
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