Posted on 02/25/2007 7:43:34 AM PST by OrioleFan
It is a great what-if scenario of how the aforementioned campaign could have gone differently.
I've read 'em.
Admiral Joe Sestak is a Copperhead ping.
One must remember also that Antietam (Sharpsburg) was not a strategic goal unto itself, it was part of a long campaign during which tactical and strategic goals changed according to the military situation.
The action at Antietam came about not by careful long term planning but in many ways by circumstance. Beginning at Cedar Mountain when the armies of Lee and Pope were confronting each other near Culpepper, Virginia, a series of Confederate military victories allowed Southern forces to press Pope's army backwards toward Washington.
The stunning Confederate victory at the Second Battle of Bull Run (Manassas) followed closely by the loss of 2 important Union generals at Chantilly provided Lee with an oppurtunity to undertake a broad offensive flanking movement around the Federal capitol.
One of the prizes of this movement was the capture of Harper's Ferry Va. which would allow the Confederates to cut vital rail and water transportation to points west. Another benefit was to draw Federal forces away from Washington to defend against a Confederate thrust towards Pennsylvania. I believe that this may have been Lee's intention in September 1862 and this is why he placed strong units in the gaps of the Catoctin Mountains to screen his main army's northward route of march.
Unfortunately for Lee, a copy of his army's disposition was captured by Federal troops (note to self...never send secret information written on paper wrapped around a few cigars) and thus the new (again) Federal commander McClellan was apprised of his enemy's tactical situation. McClellan was able to force the gaps in the Catoctins (Battles of Crampton's, Fox's and Turner's Gaps) and strike Lee's Army near Sharpsburg Md (Antietam) before Lee could fully consolidate his forces.
Had the Southern states agreed to stay in the Union...or had they surrendered in the first two years of the war...it would have been submission to Washington and Slavery...at least until slavery died out...as it was in the process of doing
Those, including Lincoln, who worked against the Constitutional decentralized Republic in favor of an unconstitutional powerful national government were more than happy to protect slavery in the South so long as the South would submit
Governor Joseph Brown of Georgia thought the Confederate government was unconstitutional itself. He also thought Jefferson Davis was a tyrant.
Brown was a champion of states rights and seccession but actively battled the Confederate government during the war because of what he percieved to be gross over-reaching of the central governments power.
Brown was one of the first Southern politicians to call for an end to the Civil War.
Wonder if there was a musical group comprised of three women that was the darling of the Aniwar Democrats called the "Yankee Chicks"?
And I think 'short history' is your key point:
out of the box governments, in time of war, are not likely to get everything right.
Took the USA over ten years, Iraq knows what they want but struggle, Etc.
Might add that, while certainly not a model of governance, the south failed to centralize in many ways and it cost them. Forces were both State and CSA, command was hampered and length of service was spotty. Loyalties were almost entirely local rather than national. And, there were at least three competing motives for serving that the troops could select from.
"The Founders brought in Europeans to fight Europeans."
The founders were Europeans rebelling against the European crown that established them in a new world. Precisely like the CSA, they sought foreign recognition of their rebellion. Also, those foreign troops fought against loyalist Colonials as well as red coated Englishmen.
"The rebs wanted to bring in aliens to fight fellow Americans."
Funny thing about being outnumbered.
"Lee tried to incorporate Maryland into the Confederacy."
Like Sibley tried to bring Colorado, New Mexico, and Utah into the Confederacy.
Maryland was a southern state and Lincoln was terrified that it would go with the South from the start, probably the only thing that stopped that from taking place was the immediate proximity of Union force. Many of the most horrific stories of the war took place in the border states and even Southern California and Arizona had skirmishes.
"But while Lee had one of the finest operational minds of the war, his strategic vision wasn't commensurate with it, and he missed the opportunity."
Seems to me that Lee screwed up Gettysburg, should have forced south with Hill and Ewell to roll up the Union lines instead of exposed maneuvering and wasted forces on the federal left.
Strategically and politically, Pennsylvania was intended to scare the bejezus out of the Union capitol. Any other effect would have been gravy.
PS to all: We can debate and list slavery as the cause of that war 'till we drop but it was never the motive force in the north that history has made it out to be. Lincoln's motives were entirely built on "the Union".
Yes, far better to be misled by Hamiltonian revisionists who would have us believe the government today is what the Framers really wanted, but were just afraid to ask. The Confederacy wanted her freedom from a national government gone wrong. We didn't get it and now we have a bureaucratic behemoth that no longer recognizes federalism or holds any of the traits the Framers or the Constitution intended it to have. Except for Rep. Paul, and perhaps one or two others, I'd bet good money the other elected hacks even know the intent of the document
It's apropos that you use Hitler's absurdities to validate your own.
Destroying American union would have destroyed much more than was lost in the Civil War. Lincoln's only goal was preservation of the union - the country itself. If you want to cast blame for those who died in the Civil War, blame the Confederates who started it.
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we may take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
- President Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg address
http://www.fightthebias.com/Resources/Hist_Docs/Speeches/lincoln_getty.htm
According to Lee, he had one goal for going into Maryland. To feed and resupply his army. Everything else was secondary.
No, thank you Stonewall Jackson.
In what way? What caused the Southern states to secede in the 1860s that did not obtain under the Buchanan administration? What threat was there inherent to the South in the election of a Republican presidency that was missing from the election of a Breckenridge or Douglas?
"What part of the Republican Platform of 1860 do you think triggered the secessionist before Lincoln ever took the oath of office?"
Hit nail on head - directly.
But there is an order to the Gettysburg sequence where many things were happening but if you lose Lee's overall strategy that he was always thinking "offensive" then it seems as if Lee is just reacting to events. He did not do that.
Yes, Davis loved to move troops around thinking that was the answer to the defeats out in the West and there was serious consideration to sending part of Longstreet's Division west, but the reason it did not happen was because Lee wanted to go north. He was not reacting to Davis by saying, "hey, I've got an idea..." Just look at his correspondence with Jackson when Jackson was still in the Valley.
No, I do not believe Lee was looking for the "final" battle. He was going to resupply his army. That was the most important thing in his mind and if you read his dispatches, it overwhelms everything else.
I agree Stuart was not to blame since Lee had cavalry with him, but he did know where the Army of the Potomac was. He was not the "blind and helpless" commander that the book Killer Angels and the movie Gettysburg leads one to believe.
Hooker was only a couple of miles from Lee, Longstreet, and Hill when Hooker occupied the gaps along South Mountain. (The ANV was in Hagerstown at the time) Hooker's signal stations were in full view on peaks, flapping their flags. Each of Lee's corps had a signal corps, and Lee had a number of scouts to send on the mountain to see Hooker's army on the other side.
Lee turned around because strategically Gettysburg was the place to fight.
The first day was a skirmish between the 1st Corps AOP (reinforced by the 11th) and the Third Corps ANV. Ewell coming down on the rear shows why Lee turned at Gettysburg.
No, I don't think he was at all. He knew where Hooker was (later Meade). He expected to be followed, wanted to be followed. He turned at Gettysburg because of the roads and strategic importance of that town.
What opportunity did he miss?
When asked if Hood should replace Johnston, he told Davis that Hood was a mistake and would lose the army. He was right.
I am not stalking you on the thread. I like your comments...
PS - I think by time Chancellorsville is finished, with the loss of Jackson, and the restructuring his army must go through, Lee knew that Vicksburg was lost. Besides, Johnston was in Jackson Mississippi (being stubborn I know) and even with their differences (more on Johnston's part than Lee's) he knows that Johnston is very capable of "stopping" Grant, if Grant was going to be stopped. (Which I do not think he was. The time to do that was in the winter - by May, June it was too late.)
Proof of that please. I have read many things about the Army of Northern Virginia and have never read that.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.