The Confederate battle flag:a racist symbol or proud history?

arbiter ^ | 20-Jan-2005 | Bill Ward

[Conspiracy Guy]

The folks that believe in State's Rights unless it interferes with the federal government?

[lilylangtree]

Matter of interpretation. Speaking of which just rec'd the below via email this a.m.

The following shows you that it's all a matter of Interpretation.

Several centuries ago, the Pope decreed that all the Jews had to convert or leave Italy. There was a huge outcry from the Jewish community, so the Pope offered a deal. He would have a religious debate with the leader of the Jewish community. If the Jews won, they could stay in Italy, if the Pope won, they would have to leave.

The Jewish people met and picked an aged but wise Rabbi, Moishe, to represent them in the debate. However, as Moishe spoke no Italian and the Pope spoke no Yiddish, they all agreed that it would be a "silent" debate.

On the chosen day, the Pope and Rabbi Moishe sat opposite each other for a full minute then... the Pope raised his hand and showed three fingers. Rabbi Moishe looked back and raised one finger.

Next the Pope waved his finger around his head. Rabbi Moishe pointed to the ground where he sat. The Pope then brough! t out a communion wafer and a chalice of wine. Rabbi Moishe pulled out an apple.

With that, the Pope stood up and declared that he was beaten, that Rabbi Moishe was too clever and that the Jews could stay. Later, the Cardinals met with the Pope, asking what had happened. The Pope said, "First I held up three fingers to represent the Trinity. He responded by holding up one finger to remind me that there is still only one God common to both our beliefs. Then, I waved my finger to show him that God was all around us. He responded by pointing to the ground to show that God was also right here with us. I pulled out the wine and wafer to show that God absolves us of all our sins. He pulled out an apple to remind me of the original sin. He had me beaten and I could not continue."

Meanwhile the Jewish community was gathered around Rabbi Moishe. "What happened?" they asked. "Well," said Moishe, "First he said to me that we had three days to get out of Italy, so I flipped him off and said to him, 'Up yours'. Then he tells me that the whole country would be cleared of Jews and I said to him, we're staying right here."

"And then what," asked a woman.

"Who knows?" said Moishe, "He took out his lunch, so I took out mine."

[jrsdls]

Nothing nonsense about "the War of Northern Aggression." My great granny always called it that. It sorts stuck with me. The South would have never fought against the north if the North would have left fort Sumter. The South was invaded. My great granny use to tell us kids about what happened when she was a little girl. She would tell us how Genral Jackson rode by one day with soldiers, he stopped, came into the house, gave her mom some food, asked if everything was okay, gave her some little sweets, prayed with the family and then moved on. This was opposed by the northern soldiers who came in, stole the food, raped her mom and moved on. Heck, I didn't know that "damn Yankee" was two words until I went to school. My great granny died in 1966 and the ripe old age of 108.

[Non-Sequitur]

The South would have never fought against the north if the North would have left fort Sumter.

And the North would not have fought if the South had not fired on Fort Sumter.

Disputing the southron myth machine is a never ending task.

[jrsdls]

Not trying to argue with you, but remember, South Carolina seceeded from the United States, It was no longer part of the Union. As a free nation, South Carolina asked that all union forces be removed from South Carolina soil. Linclon refused and in an effort to press the matter, sent supplies to the troops at Fort Sumter with the message, hold out until the end. If we have a military base in Mexico, and mexico tells us to close it down and leave and all we do is re-supply it, can we not expect Mexico to militarily remove it.

[PretzeLogic]

Nothing nonsense about "the War of Northern Aggression." My great granny always called it that.

Being from south Georgia myself, I grew up learning the same history and hearing the same kinds of stories.

Several years ago, my wife and I took a trip to DC where I saw a statue of Sherman. General Sherman is apparently a hero to the north. He is considered a ruthless conquerer in the south. I was incensed that there would be a statue on the mall celebrating anyone who perpetrated acts of genocide.

From the point of view of my forebears, the war was one of conquest by the north. Reconstruction was the subjugation of a people under the thumb of an aggressive, malevolent military machine.

[JCISLORD]

My family has a long and proud history of being Southerners which dates to 1712. They owned a large plantation south of Atlanta but did not have slaves. They had sharecroppers on the plantation, not slaves. According to the account books my sister was given, there were black and white sharecroppers, and both were treated very fairly. There are also diaries written by different members of my family. In these diaries, the main reason given for the war was states rights. The political machine of the North wanted to control the resources and riches, i.e., cotton, tobacco, etc., of the South. Slavery was the excuse given to invade the South. I do not believe in slavery nor did my family, yet we are condemned with the slave owners because, we are Southern.
Reconstruction of the South was a joke. Taxes were raised so high that many Southern land owners lost everything to the wealthy "carpetbaggers" who descended on the South like locust. Even landowners like my family were punished. All livestock and foodstuffs were taken by the Union army on their way to invaded Atlanta. Had it not been for the sharecroppers hiding essentials, all would have starved. Thankfully my family had hidden their valuables before the army arrived and could pay the taxes levied on them.
Do not talk down to those of us who are proud of our Southern heritage. We are very proud of our ancestors and should be allowed to fly the flag of the Confederacy, as we also fly the U.S. flag. The only time Southerners show their ire is when someone, like yourself, deems to feel superior in heritage. According to the aforementioned diaries, many of the YANKEE persuasion were thieves, murders and rapist. They pillaged the South, burning homes, murdering the occupants, raping the women, black and white, and stealing everything of value. Do not feel that you have the moral high ground in your heritage. YOU DO NOT.

[PretzeLogic]

Do not talk down to those of us who are proud of our Southern heritage. We are very proud of our ancestors and should be allowed to fly the flag of the Confederacy, as we also fly the U.S. flag.

Amen!

[Non-Sequitur]

Not trying to argue with you, but remember, South Carolina seceeded from the United States, It was no longer part of the Union. As a free nation, South Carolina asked that all union forces be removed from South Carolina soil. Linclon refused and in an effort to press the matter, sent supplies to the troops at Fort Sumter with the message, hold out until the end. If we have a military base in Mexico, and mexico tells us to close it down and leave and all we do is re-supply it, can we not expect Mexico to militarily remove it.

Assuming for a moment that the South Carolina secession was actually legal to begin with, they had no claim to Sumter. It was in all respects the property of the United States government. The very act of demanding it be turned over could be seen as an act of war, never mind surrounding it with artillery and shooting at anything flying the Stars and Stripes that came near.

[x]

You're kidding, right?

[Non-Sequitur]

But you wouldn't know anything about those principles now would you?!

Not having your particular slant on things, no.

[antisocial]

DIXIE bump!!!

[stainlessbanner]

they had no claim to Sumter.

They were negotiating for rights to Sumter, Moultrie, and other arsenals. Buchannen agreed to not reinforce the forts until a decsion was made. Unfortunately, the commanders disregarded this agreement, raided the arsenal, abandoned Moultrie, and prepared for conflict at Sumter. Lincoln would not even address the SC envoys in early 1861 and further ignited the war by provisioning Sumpter.

[peacebaby]

Yes. "Isle of Canes" written by Elizabeth Shown Mills is about 4 generations of black women who went from slaves to become "free people of color" and the Metoyer family of Louisiana. the second book ont he Metoyer family is "Cane River." I don't know the author's name.

The third book is "The Unknown World" about black slave owners in Virginia/North Carolina. Don't remember the author's name.

The Metoyer family is still present in the Natchez area of Louisiana. It's a mix of French, black - hence Creole. Their well-known plantation is Melrose Plantation, built by them and their slaves.

The Metoyer family were Catholic, and St. Augustine Metoyer built a "compound" if you will, for his family, including a Catholic church and a private school in which to teach his children and other black children in the area - and some white children as well.

The Metoyer girls "came out" in a debutante sort of way. They Yetoyers were well-educated, well-bred people.

[jrsdls]

It was only after the Civil War ended that it became illegal to secede from the United States. South Carolina was within it's right to secede. Just like America was within it's right to leave England. What must be remembered is that South Carolina gave the union fair warning and asked like any other nation that the troops be removed. And for that matter, why did the north invade Virginia? if anything, they should have only invaded South Carolina. Northern revisionist history at work here folks.

[Colt .45]

" Assuming for a moment that the South Carolina secession was actually legal to begin with, they had no claim to Sumter."

According to you the South was supposed to ask for permission to leave the Union first?! Now that is stupid! Its like saying that the Founders were supposed to ask permission from King George and Parliament to leave the crown and become independent for it to be legal. You missed the "Liberty" boat, and are standing at the dock with your ticket in hand wondering what happened.

For something to be a right, it means that you don't have to ask permission from anybody for it. It is something that exists and that you avail yourself of.

[Adder]

Well, yee-haw!

I've only lived here for 30 yrs, bout time I got my "card". I knew you had to wait but jeezzz, ya know?
Maybe now I won't be reminded I "ain't from aroun heah"...

Heh...heh...heh

[Charlespg]

"The pride surrounding symbols of the Confederacy disappoints me. But as a greater fan of our First Amendment, I accept that others express it."

most of the slaves imported into this country were done so at the hands of northeners