Posted on 05/22/2016 2:44:01 PM PDT by sparklite2
Francis Bown’s claim that the sacrament of holy orders in the Roman Catholic church has always been confined to men (Letters, 19 May) is contradicted by the research of Cipriano Vagaggini in 1974. Pope Paul VI invited Fr Vagaggini, as a member of the official International Theological Commission, to research this matter, and the resulting work showed clearly that women were ordained to the diaconate as a sacrament of the church throughout the first millennium and beyond. Among those whose work confirms this, Professor Gary Macy of Santa Clara University reports that the shocking reason for the gradual decline in the office of women deacons in the early centuries of the second millennium was prejudicial male attitudes to menstruation. The 12th-century canonist Theodore Balsamon wrote that “the monthly affliction banished them from the divine and holy sanctuary”. What the pope is playing with is surely the fire of the spirit sending gifts not on selected groups but on all and for all. Cathy Wattebot Coventry
• Francis Bown thinks Pope Francis is playing with fire as he sets up a commission to consider the ordination of women as deacons. Let’s hope it’s the fire of the holy spirit, the one which promised to guide “all who are far off, all whom God will call”. I believe that offers some freedom from the necessity to adhere to the social constraints of first-century Palestine and to constantly rebuild a church fit for purpose rather than a historical re-enactment society.
(Excerpt) Read more at theguardian.com ...
Well! Gary Macy of Santa Clara University in 1974! That settles it, a powerful argument from an unassailable authority of the type who likes to pretend the Church had no Sacraments at all until the 12th century or so.
From the Diakonia of Christ to the Diakonia of the Apostles*
1) The Bible forbids women pastors.
That’s really the only reason you need, and it was the only reason every Christian denomination until around 1900 needed.
If you want to see how far away today’s Christianity has fallen from the Bible, here’s an obvious place to start. If you’re church has compromised on this point, then you know they will compromise on scripture. So ask yourself: what else in the Bible are they compromising on?
Oh, and also Cipriano Vagaggini, who was the 1974 guy. A member of Pope Paul VI’s Theological Commission. Why, that’s practically as good as being drafted as an NFL QB in 1983 as great Commissions go! (for non Catholics, sarcasm is drifting heavily)
No.
“Although there are records of the liturgical installation of deaconesses dating back to the fourth century, one must not overlook the fact that the selfsame authors who testify to this practice also make clear that the consecration of deaconesses was not the ordination of women to the diaconal ministry; on the contrary, it was a question of a different ecclesiastical office.”
Gerhard Ludwig Müller, Priesthood and Diaconate: The Recipient of the Sacrament of Holy Orders from ....
https://books.google.com/books?id=qx0JiRt1AS0C&pg=PT31&lpg=PT31&dq=manfred+hauke+diaconate&source=bl&ots=kCi3e9pwta&sig=Fzm4PA9VgphH_8a5uW24SPknMHk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6pLe41O7MAhWI44MKHYpUDf8Q6AEIRjAG#v=onepage&q=manfred%20hauke%20diaconate&f=false
Nice to see the Communist Guardian advising the Catholic Church on its doctrines.
That's a point worth thinking about, except... it doesn't apply in this case, because deacons are not pastors.
However, it may apply in this sense, that the Sacrament of Holy Orders (by which men are ordained) has always been reserved for men (males, viri). The diaconate emphasizes the "servant" aspect of Holy Orders, and this may be an aspect particularly suited to the spiritual perfecting of males.
Cipriano Vagaggini was also the one who composed some of the new Eucharistic Prayers. Lovely, right?
Let’s see this alleged research.
Just the basics, God made Man, He then wanted man to have a Companion so he made Women for Mans Rib... Granted this is not specific to Holy Orders however it is specific to what and Why each were made.
Man was made to till and tend to his garden, IE Serve the Lord, But God also knew it was not right for Man(Adam) to be alone, thus he made Women(Eve) from Adams Rib for the specific purpose to be his companion.
God Bless
“That’s a point worth thinking about, except... it doesn’t apply in this case, because deacons are not pastors.”
And in the New Testament has reference to them
https://www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ060713/was-phoebe-a-deaconess
https://www.openbible.info/topics/deaconess.
Am decon is not the same as an elder or pastor
Thank you for those links. “FReepers in the know!”
In a word: Dorcas. And Lydia.
Are you saying that because all the apostles were men? Or is there a specific verse that applies here? I'm not trying to start an argument. I just want to know.
Yet another Leftist slap at religion and its moral constraints.
from a Biblical perspective, NOT SHOCKING AT ALL
(Leviticus many cites, also noted in Genesis, Ezekiel, and Jesus taught to follow the Biblical teachings too.)
WHATEVER any one of us may think about this Church “policy” ...pro or con.....no matter what we may think of it.......however that may be......it is NOT ‘surprising’ given that the Church does (often, if not always) try to be true to the Bible
ps to above: it is certainly not surprising, nor is it (as the article put it:) “Shocking”
not in the least, all the article author had to do...to get it correct... was to open up a Bible for, say, two minutes
Oh no, he’s planning how to cram the ordination of womyn down the collective catholic throat. He’s going to go all obama on this, watch.
Multiple types of thread in cloth? Banishing women during their time of the month?
“Or is there a specific verse that applies here?”
Certainly:
“11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” 1 Tim 2:11-14
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